lol no they don't.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
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lol no they don't.
DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
Receipts my nigga...show me them
otherwise your pretty much doing what brute called you out for, i gave you many reasons/examples what Leon has over Rachel and why he beats her at cqc which both rely on and why rachel has nothing solid enough to put any matchup they share in her advantage vs kasumi or any other character
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We did give you reasons, but you just shrug it off like most people in this topic, who just care about boosting their character with no effort. I'm done with this topic, honestly. Not enough players post in it that will help build a decent tier list. Just the same none sense. Too many online warriors and not enough actual players.
No, you just spoke about Leon's tools and avoided any explanation as to why Kasumi vs Rachel isn't a 5-5 lol. Because the fact of the matter is that you cannot explain why it isn't. And Leon is not better than Rachel.
No wonder other good players stopped posting in this thread. Too much ignorance in here.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
The question at hand is why is Kasumi vs. Rachel a 5-5 when Leon supposedly (I say supposedly because I am still waiting for someone to counter the points presented in his case) is better than Rachel yet is 6-4.
Adon:
Bayman/Leon suffer with range, and neither of them takes out wake up kicks like Rachel can. She still has her stomp set up, and blender/vortex situations. Her mobility is pretty insane with her KBD and wave dashes. Only thing Bayman has that Rachel don't is the tank roll (which isn't that evasive), and Parries (which isn't close to being Gen Fu or Lei Fang status).This doesn't really tell me much, except Bayman/or Leon may have one thing they can do better than Rachel, while Rachel has like 5 things she can do better.
Hajin:
Rachel has better walk speed and superior Korean Back Dash than every other Super Heavyweight (her KBD is one of the best period). She has deeper stuns in threshold, tracking, a strong blender, and controls wake ups easily because her stomp is a solid tool. She has solid mix up in threshold, she has more buttons at range than other Super Heavyweights. And she certainly has an easier time getting her damage. Her air throw has a lot of range.
A solid Rachel hitting you is a lot scarier than a Bayman or Leon ever will be when this character has ways to keep her momentum a lot better than most.
Fork disputes the points in bold with this:
better walking speed and backdashing isn't enough to put her in more advantageous matchups over the tools he has over her especially since they both rely heavily on cqc where Leon clearly beats her out.
She has no easier a time getting damage than Leon who has multiple NH launchers, guaranteed launchers from sitdowns, a slew of 2in1's that either launch or puts opponents in deep lift stuns. his chargeable cb which gives him 2hit cb setups or a high damage hit throw launcher that leads to his air throw. vastly superior guardbreaks that give him +3 through +14 advantage where as rachels gives her a worthless +1 at most, more damaging throws than her with his highest damaging one being i10 along with better OHs that still net decent damage on NH where rachels do no damage and only guarantee anything on CH/HCH, an i16 high crushing sitdown stun which guarantees his 7p which is unstaggerable and forces a must hold situation where leon is free to do whatever he wants, his 3k which gives him guaranteed launch on opponents in crouch status making people think twice about randomly low holding against him. lastly his chargeable strings keep opponents guessing and adds another layer to his mixup potential. Rachel hitting you being a lot more scary than Leon hitting you is laughable. Im not even going to go into what hes capable of in certain stages with breakable objects since everyone and their mama already knows.
Her vortex/stomp while good is still nowhere near as scary and useful as it was pre-nerf since she is now at a huge risk if it whiffs and even then both Leon and Bayman have their ground grapples to keep opponents from relying on wake up kicks forcing them to tech on knockdown too. not to mention both Bayman and Leon's special wake up OH's beat out rachels stomp when bayman's feet faces her or Leon's head faces her limiting her setups for it
I'm posting this because in the last few posts nobody has disputed these points in bold. That is not how a discussion works. You acknowledge each others points then tear them down with counterpoints backed by solid evidence.
Adon:
Bayman/Leon suffer with range, and neither of them takes out wake up kicks like Rachel can. She still has her stomp set up, and blender/vortex situations. Her mobility is pretty insane with her KBD and wave dashes. Only thing Bayman has that Rachel don't is the tank roll (which isn't that evasive), and Parries (which isn't close to being Gen Fu or Lei Fang status).This doesn't really tell me much, except Bayman/or Leon may have one thing they can do better than Rachel, while Rachel has like 5 things she can do better.
Hajin:
Rachel has better walk speed and superior Korean Back Dash than every other Super Heavyweight (her KBD is one of the best period). She has deeper stuns in threshold, tracking, a strong blender, and controls wake ups easily because her stomp is a solid tool. She has solid mix up in threshold, she has more buttons at range than other Super Heavyweights. And she certainly has an easier time getting her damage. Her air throw has a lot of range.
A solid Rachel hitting you is a lot scarier than a Bayman or Leon ever will be when this character has ways to keep her momentum a lot better than most.
Fork disputes the points in bold with this:
better walking speed and backdashing isn't enough to put her in more advantageous matchups over the tools he has over her especially since they both rely heavily on cqc where Leon clearly beats her out.
She has no easier a time getting damage than Leon who has multiple NH launchers, guaranteed launchers from sitdowns, a slew of 2in1's that either launch or puts opponents in deep lift stuns. his chargeable cb which gives him 2hit cb setups or a high damage hit throw launcher that leads to his air throw. vastly superior guardbreaks that give him +3 through +14 advantage where as rachels gives her a worthless +1 at most, more damaging throws than her with his highest damaging one being i10 along with better OHs that still net decent damage on NH where rachels do no damage and only guarantee anything on CH/HCH, an i16 high crushing sitdown stun which guarantees his 7p which is unstaggerable and forces a must hold situation where leon is free to do whatever he wants, his 3k which gives him guaranteed launch on opponents in crouch status making people think twice about randomly low holding against him. lastly his chargeable strings keep opponents guessing and adds another layer to his mixup potential. Rachel hitting you being a lot more scary than Leon hitting you is laughable. Im not even going to go into what hes capable of in certain stages with breakable objects since everyone and their mama already knows.
Her vortex/stomp while good is still nowhere near as scary and useful as it was pre-nerf since she is now at a huge risk if it whiffs and even then both Leon and Bayman have their ground grapples to keep opponents from relying on wake up kicks forcing them to tech on knockdown too. not to mention both Bayman and Leon's special wake up OH's beat out rachels stomp when bayman's feet faces her or Leon's head faces her limiting her setups for it
I'm posting this because in the last few posts nobody has disputed these points in bold. That is not how a discussion works. You acknowledge each others points then tear them down with counterpoints backed by solid evidence.
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Rachel requires a constant poke-based game up close and she's lather lacking at mid to long range, since most of those tools are linear. Leon has a better time getting in with 46P and he actually has a low crush from mid range with 9P and 6P+K and 33OH to keep people honest.
Leon's basic strikes are 11/13/16 while Rachel's are 11/13/14. She does have that few frame lead in terms of advantage and her low tracking move is 18i while Leon's is 22i, though Leon benefits from the extra frame of safety on normal hit and trip stun on CH. Rachel's more poke-based, really. She's very basic. Both have 2Ps that are +1, so they can end up with similar 10/12 high/mid strikes. Pretty good.
In the mix-up department, Rachel kind of loses here, because despite being safe, she can occasionally lose to mid-punch holds. Leon just has a better low-mid mixup. Both characters have very good tracking strings like PK for Rachle and P6P for Leon, but he's the one that has the added follow ups. It makes it easier to open people up and it also benefits from safe mid and low followups.
In terms of tracking, Leon doesn't have fast enough mid tracking moves which means that the Leon player has to make more use of P6P and 6PP, which is a bad thing necessarily, but his standalone tracking more are much slower than Rachel's. Rachel has a good 18i 1P and 16i 4PP string. Yes, a low of people buffer mid punch hold when buffering their own strings, but 4P on its own is pretty good, which makes her a simple decent MU to pick against Brad who has a slightly better time against other heavies until their start using their low OH.
In terms of working towards max threshold or just getting to that CB, Leon has an easier time than Rachel, because 3P, 7P, 8K, 33P these are all good and you can god around that depending on how much you charge P+K. He also has a good SDS with 3K on crouching opponents which he also has in this 6PK string. Stagger escaping him can be difficult. Rachel on the other hand has a good lift stun with 3P and two good SDS on hit, though due to her recovery, it's a little easier to escape hers. 8K 7P is a pretty good idea most of the time, but if you get caught, you leave yourself open to be punished. Not like Leon is super safe; he's got unsafe moves too, but people don't punish him as much for some reason.
In terms of oki, I actually won't rate Rachel higher than Leon mainly because Leon has a better blender than Rachel. Sure, she was pretty good when she came out, but now she is downright punishable. Leon has low throws and they benefit from whiffing into low throws instead of ground throws, which means that usually you have better recovery and so you end up actually being at frame advantage. Now, the king of this whole ground throw blender is Bass, but Leon can also play this game, especially after wall crumble and he does pretty good damage if he catches you not teching. I've found that Leon ends up in more of those situations in general than Rachel. Commitment with Leon is less risky than with Rachel. The risk-reward scale with both characters seem fair, but Leon has to risk less than Rachel.
Both characters basically fall into the same category as the poke-based heavy weight characters whom you can adopt their own rushdown style. Yes, they can rush you down in certain situations. They're both good, but there's no question that Leon's total damage output is superior to Rachel's outside of her 41236T, which comes close to Leon's.
Okay, you guys did talk about movement in general and Rachel's hurtbox in neutral is smaller and some stuff can whiff on her from range 3-4, like Kasumi's 6K 1K. Honestly, I wouldn't rate that too high in this MU, but it does count still. For these characters, they have to be right in your face, though Leon can do things from range 2, as in like two characters away.
So, overall who does better against Kasumi? It think they can both hold their own against her, but overall, you'd probably expect Leon to do a bit better based on his overall tools and he has a pretty good high crush with 33P.
I can't give these MUs numbers tbh. I just feel like they can both do well and this isn't like the Kasumi-Bass MU where you have to struggle a lot to get ball rolling.
Leon's basic strikes are 11/13/16 while Rachel's are 11/13/14. She does have that few frame lead in terms of advantage and her low tracking move is 18i while Leon's is 22i, though Leon benefits from the extra frame of safety on normal hit and trip stun on CH. Rachel's more poke-based, really. She's very basic. Both have 2Ps that are +1, so they can end up with similar 10/12 high/mid strikes. Pretty good.
In the mix-up department, Rachel kind of loses here, because despite being safe, she can occasionally lose to mid-punch holds. Leon just has a better low-mid mixup. Both characters have very good tracking strings like PK for Rachle and P6P for Leon, but he's the one that has the added follow ups. It makes it easier to open people up and it also benefits from safe mid and low followups.
In terms of tracking, Leon doesn't have fast enough mid tracking moves which means that the Leon player has to make more use of P6P and 6PP, which is a bad thing necessarily, but his standalone tracking more are much slower than Rachel's. Rachel has a good 18i 1P and 16i 4PP string. Yes, a low of people buffer mid punch hold when buffering their own strings, but 4P on its own is pretty good, which makes her a simple decent MU to pick against Brad who has a slightly better time against other heavies until their start using their low OH.
In terms of working towards max threshold or just getting to that CB, Leon has an easier time than Rachel, because 3P, 7P, 8K, 33P these are all good and you can god around that depending on how much you charge P+K. He also has a good SDS with 3K on crouching opponents which he also has in this 6PK string. Stagger escaping him can be difficult. Rachel on the other hand has a good lift stun with 3P and two good SDS on hit, though due to her recovery, it's a little easier to escape hers. 8K 7P is a pretty good idea most of the time, but if you get caught, you leave yourself open to be punished. Not like Leon is super safe; he's got unsafe moves too, but people don't punish him as much for some reason.
In terms of oki, I actually won't rate Rachel higher than Leon mainly because Leon has a better blender than Rachel. Sure, she was pretty good when she came out, but now she is downright punishable. Leon has low throws and they benefit from whiffing into low throws instead of ground throws, which means that usually you have better recovery and so you end up actually being at frame advantage. Now, the king of this whole ground throw blender is Bass, but Leon can also play this game, especially after wall crumble and he does pretty good damage if he catches you not teching. I've found that Leon ends up in more of those situations in general than Rachel. Commitment with Leon is less risky than with Rachel. The risk-reward scale with both characters seem fair, but Leon has to risk less than Rachel.
Both characters basically fall into the same category as the poke-based heavy weight characters whom you can adopt their own rushdown style. Yes, they can rush you down in certain situations. They're both good, but there's no question that Leon's total damage output is superior to Rachel's outside of her 41236T, which comes close to Leon's.
Okay, you guys did talk about movement in general and Rachel's hurtbox in neutral is smaller and some stuff can whiff on her from range 3-4, like Kasumi's 6K 1K. Honestly, I wouldn't rate that too high in this MU, but it does count still. For these characters, they have to be right in your face, though Leon can do things from range 2, as in like two characters away.
So, overall who does better against Kasumi? It think they can both hold their own against her, but overall, you'd probably expect Leon to do a bit better based on his overall tools and he has a pretty good high crush with 33P.
I can't give these MUs numbers tbh. I just feel like they can both do well and this isn't like the Kasumi-Bass MU where you have to struggle a lot to get ball rolling.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I'm not too sure about Leon having a better time getting in than Rachel. Her mobility is greater than his and while her get in tools are linear I believe they execute faster and have better range than his. Leon's get in tools IMO are all slow and telegraphed. Ive seen his running OH his 66PP I believe and his running shoulder tackle. Characters Like Hayate or Ein with strong keep out tools can murk Leon for stuff like this, while Rachel will see a bit more success due to her slightly greater range on approach tools as well as execution speed.
Something else that's neglected about Rachel IMO is that while she does not have alot of range shes got tools to play close-mid range footsies and whiff punishment. I don't know her inputs so you would have to ask a Rachel player but that mid kick that is used as a sitdown stun is an excellent whiff punisher. Leon has little to no ability to perform in footsies so he is forced to wait for openings or charge in recklessly more so than Rachel.
Something-Unique
Active Member
The only core mechanics that are neutral in regards to giving all characters a chance is the "stun game" and throws for the most part being inescapable. The former because it's ultimately a guessing game despite having multiple methods of manipulating it, and the latter because well its self explanatory. Both allow even the weakest characters to somewhat neutralize the playing field.
Outside of the above, all categories used to determine tiers are no different than other fighters and even in the case of the "stun game" certain characters manipulate it far better than others.
When rating tiers the proper starting point should be based on categories and comparisons within them based on character tools because those are absolutes.
Damage
Speed
Safe/Unsafe & Risk/Reward
Punishment
Okizeme
Throws
Holds
Stun (Manipulation)
Wall Pressure
Neutral Game
Environment (The least relevant)
MU discussion comes last because it is "dependent" on the above and without proper knowledge of each character all you end up with is subjective conjecture as you see here.
In fact all MU considerations are there for is to single out specific things that are character vs character specific.
For example Zack's FT doesn't work on characters like Mila, Leon, and Tina because of their OH's on wakeup where as it works on all other characters.
Other MU specific things include a large gap in priority (fastest vs slowest character) and or space control due to actual impact range/tremendous hitboxes (Lisa).
Blazeincarnated
Well-Known Member
Which is absolute bullshit.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I agree with what you say but I will have to disagree with the ability to play off the environment in this game being the least relevant. The environment is a universal source of guaranteed damage and characters that have throws that take advantage of the dangerzones and breakable objects as well as knockbacks that allow you to position your opponent closer or to or right on these hazards that boost damage output have a clear edge in this game. This IMO is a very strong ability to have because not every character can do this with ease.
Here's the thing, 46P has more range and advantage that Rachel's 66K and gives a consistent advantage and they're both the same speed. That move covers both what Rachel's 236P and 66K. Same speed. More advantage. 236P's range and more frame advantage than 66K.
Leon's OH has more range and crushes highs and gives real good damage. People are just not using his tools right imo. Just look at Japanese Leon players for example. He's popular there for a reason and I think people are using his offensive tools right.
Don't get me wrong, Rachel's 4K is pretty damn good, but I just think people are too intimidated by Rachel still.
I like to go through the Leon Hayate MU in the future. I rate it as a 5-5 right now.
Something-Unique
Active Member
I feel good every time I know I have an option to escape all the pressure.
The reason I mentioned it as the least relevant is because its super situational while everything else is readily available to u at all times. Not to mention its often stage dependent and for the most part each character has an advantage unique to them per that situational stage dependence.
Leon @ Home, Mila @ Electrical Floor Stage, Ninja's @ Ceilings.
There all situational and based on random stage select though. Leon prob has the highest factor of making things happen because of his controllable air throw which makes him super dumb @ Home but again its based on random stage select.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I'd haven't seen much japanese Leon play. I'll check it out. As of right now though I just feel Rachel can get in more consistently than Leon and performs better than him in spacing scenarios because her tools for that are more varied. Tracking mids, solid whiff punishers that stun on NH, moderate speed tracking high that can be used for keep out etc etc. Let me know what else Leon has in the department of consistent whiff punishers and keepout tools?
I guess it's because I link wall pressure and environmental play together. All stages except dojo have a wall and or dangerzone present so despite there not being objects and things of that sort getting someone closer to the wall / dangerzone to boost your damage output and keeping them there is important to me.
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Something-Unique
Active Member
Yeah walls and environments are rated separately for me. Walls are always there.
Environmental stuff like ceilings, tables, electrical floors, etc aren't.
I won't speak thouroughly on the Rachel vs Leon discussion but Rachel doesn't have better okizeme than Leon. Not to mention if u commit to Rachel's stomp and ur opponent techs she's -/punishable. Where as Leon is plus/unpunishable and can continue.
Environmental stuff like ceilings, tables, electrical floors, etc aren't.
I won't speak thouroughly on the Rachel vs Leon discussion but Rachel doesn't have better okizeme than Leon. Not to mention if u commit to Rachel's stomp and ur opponent techs she's -/punishable. Where as Leon is plus/unpunishable and can continue.
Something-Unique
Active Member
Agreed.
These last few posts actually make sense, so I'll just throw in my two cents really quick.
Environment is an insanely important variable, though I do consider "wall pressure" lumped into "environment." The efficiency of certain characters can jump entire tiers depending solely on what stage they are fighting in. While Leon perhaps posses the biggest wild card with the Home Stage, Hayabusa is in constant flux with different stages. Roughly half of the stages he struggles in, where the rest he fares well (and in a few stages he fares far, far better than "well"). One of Hayabusa's greatest strengths is his environment manipulation. However, he can't always utilize that potential given the stage he's in. So while it's a huge factor for him, with the stages being randomized and so determinate on this effect, I can see where they almost "cancel each other out," whereas the other variables are viewed as constants and are therefore assigned greater importance.
Personally, as I've stated numerous times, I feel like the neutral game (and, derivative risk/reward from the neutral game) is the single-most important variable for a character in DOA's tier list. This is because after the opponent is stunned, the aggressor in DOA is always in a rather advantageous position. Some moreso than others, yes, but the odds of the opponent properly guessing your next action given your number of options is rather low, and you have a variety of ways to manipulate this situation. It's characters who can enter this situation more easily than others who generally do better in this game. This is not to say that the other variables aren't important, as they most certainly are, but the ability to open someone up is the best ability you can have in a game like this where you have the current stun game and the current triangle system.
This is achieved through your play-by-play chance of success. If your character has a number of tools that have a high chance of success, they will typically also reap a good reward. Even if the move is low damage or a "light stun," strong neutral game characters can simply view this as frame advantage, and frame advantage for these characters goes a very, very long way, whereas other characters have to work much harder to gain frame advantage. These characters are also typically mix-up heavy, and as such have an even better time twisting stuns as well, as it's difficult for the opponent to anticipate which of their numerous options they will use next.
I would also like to point out that oki is generally the next most important factor. If a character has good oki, it essentially carries their favorable situation throughout a match by putting them into a "favorable neutral." For some strange reason, characters with strong oki also generally have a strong neutral. This means that their chance of success is higher in opening someone up, and their reward for doing so is higher because they are gifted with prolonged pressure potential. There are some exceptions to this, obviously. For example, Bass has a weaker neutral game, but actually has good oki pressure. But on the flipside, you have characters like Gen Fu and Helena who have strong neutral games and have great oki. So in the case of Bass, you struggle to open someone up, but once you do, you net a good reward with high damage and prolonged pressure. With Gen Fu, you don't struggle to open someone up, and yet you still reap a great reward with high damage and prolonged pressure. And it's for this reason that Gen Fu is generally considered top dog and Bass is not.
At least that's what I observe.
Environment is an insanely important variable, though I do consider "wall pressure" lumped into "environment." The efficiency of certain characters can jump entire tiers depending solely on what stage they are fighting in. While Leon perhaps posses the biggest wild card with the Home Stage, Hayabusa is in constant flux with different stages. Roughly half of the stages he struggles in, where the rest he fares well (and in a few stages he fares far, far better than "well"). One of Hayabusa's greatest strengths is his environment manipulation. However, he can't always utilize that potential given the stage he's in. So while it's a huge factor for him, with the stages being randomized and so determinate on this effect, I can see where they almost "cancel each other out," whereas the other variables are viewed as constants and are therefore assigned greater importance.
Personally, as I've stated numerous times, I feel like the neutral game (and, derivative risk/reward from the neutral game) is the single-most important variable for a character in DOA's tier list. This is because after the opponent is stunned, the aggressor in DOA is always in a rather advantageous position. Some moreso than others, yes, but the odds of the opponent properly guessing your next action given your number of options is rather low, and you have a variety of ways to manipulate this situation. It's characters who can enter this situation more easily than others who generally do better in this game. This is not to say that the other variables aren't important, as they most certainly are, but the ability to open someone up is the best ability you can have in a game like this where you have the current stun game and the current triangle system.
This is achieved through your play-by-play chance of success. If your character has a number of tools that have a high chance of success, they will typically also reap a good reward. Even if the move is low damage or a "light stun," strong neutral game characters can simply view this as frame advantage, and frame advantage for these characters goes a very, very long way, whereas other characters have to work much harder to gain frame advantage. These characters are also typically mix-up heavy, and as such have an even better time twisting stuns as well, as it's difficult for the opponent to anticipate which of their numerous options they will use next.
I would also like to point out that oki is generally the next most important factor. If a character has good oki, it essentially carries their favorable situation throughout a match by putting them into a "favorable neutral." For some strange reason, characters with strong oki also generally have a strong neutral. This means that their chance of success is higher in opening someone up, and their reward for doing so is higher because they are gifted with prolonged pressure potential. There are some exceptions to this, obviously. For example, Bass has a weaker neutral game, but actually has good oki pressure. But on the flipside, you have characters like Gen Fu and Helena who have strong neutral games and have great oki. So in the case of Bass, you struggle to open someone up, but once you do, you net a good reward with high damage and prolonged pressure. With Gen Fu, you don't struggle to open someone up, and yet you still reap a great reward with high damage and prolonged pressure. And it's for this reason that Gen Fu is generally considered top dog and Bass is not.
At least that's what I observe.
46P, 33P, 9P pretty decent stuff overall. 46P can crush highs in some instances. I think with the toolset he has right now, he can reasonably stand him ground against everyone.
Now, if it was the case of Bass, then I'd say no, things like the Sarah matchup turns into this unreasonable and you can't expect a character of completely different designs to compete with another. It's very much half based on luck and the rest is long extensive matchup knowledge. Leon luckily doesn't need to go that far.
Yeah, but those characters are soo fucking boring. And some people like to test their limits and challenge themselves. I mean, yeah, people even play Hakan nowadays.
Whether or not a character is boring is irrelevant to their tier placement.