Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
But wouldn't that take away momentum? I see that way too much online, wouldn't shock me if it happened offline! Neutral IMO is only utilized when the game is nearly over - I see that alot, too!
System What would make LR better than Ultimate?
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But wouldn't that take away momentum? I see that way too much online, wouldn't shock me if it happened offline! Neutral IMO is only utilized when the game is nearly over - I see that alot, too!
Yurlungur
Well-Known Member
Momentum as in most games shouldn't be established immediately, most games always start off with pokes and then begin it. Doa is the only game that completely ignores that rule. Gen fu shouldn't just walk up and be in your face and neither should christie. It does happen but do you really need no breathing room right at the beginning? Eh, i miss the vanilla days(somewhat)
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
It's not really momentum, it's pressure! Sometimes you see both players doing this! Two bulls getting ready to butt heads! (Of course, a "frame war" - "draw" negates this!) If anything, dashing before the fight starts says: "I'm a thirsty bitch!" as if you not gonna do that anyway! The neutral game seems to be non-existent! Is it because folks are afraid of it? "So-and-so has a NG like you wouldn't believe! Better prevent said character from utilizing it!" However, if you (as Helena) take away mine (as Alpha) who at bigger advantage - especially, since we're negating the neutral game ourselves? (ie: You get in my space or vice-versa, either or both of us are in trouble)
Yeah, I need space, but what will happen when you need it? And I'm hoping you don't utilize spacing for emergencies only. DOA is all about momentum, but there's the obvious belief that it equates to pressure. It's one type of way to gain momentum and entertaining when it swings back and forth; however, momentum gained by playing head games - which may include pressure, but much more than that!
If you're going to dash immediately, why waste time? lol
Argentus
Well-Known Member
There's already four ways to deal with wakeups. Blocking, holds, crushes, or simply backing up. There is literally zero need for force techs.
Vf clash with the system. DOA is designed for fluid movements, but vf use twitchy, sudden jerky movements. It causes issues (looking at Sarah)
Power launchers offer nothing you couldn't gain just as easily (or rather, even easier) without them. I'm just saying they wouldn't be missed.
As for SS, I hate how things like kokoros strings or hayabusa teleports will flat out track and home in wherever I go if I dash or use actual ss. However if I simply walk to the side busas ports (except the grab which always tracks through everything for some reason) will whiff. Kokoro however, I've seen her strings literally flip 180 to continue attacking by tracking me tech rolling behind her. Ss doesn't work lol.
Meh. It can backfire bad, as they wound up being held or grabbed right off the bat for being right in your face.
I could go on, really...
- Aerosmith
- seperate voice options, not just Japanese and English. I want a German hitomi, Chinese leifang, etc. Keep English Mila and Leon though
- Lower height of certain launchers. There is no reason for Rigs grab to pop people as high as a power launcher.
- Or better yet, give everyone a unique sidestep. As in, like Christie, Marie, and Rachel have one unique to them, better suited to their style.
- Get rid of VF
No.
Why exactly do you think the ground game sucks? Explain yourself.
Radiance
Well-Known Member
+Brad Wong getting better recovery options from feet towards opponent laying stance (head towards opponent laying stance has a handful of good options and faster recovery when he rolls up).
+Brad Wong getting better bounds and options/combo's from bounds (In DOA5 vanilla Brad's 6k was a great move being a sit down stun on both NH and CH guaranteeing a launcher. Being replaced as a bound on CH sorta took away from his guaranteed options. It's also i22 so you won't land this move too much on NH. His bound follow up's are also weak).
+Brad Wong getting better +frames when stance transitions on block or hit to continue momentum. (Right now Brad Wong is only at +1 after kk4 stance transition which doesn't do much since his jab in that stance is i12 so you're still losing to i10 jabs which is a large handful of the cast. From laying with head towards foe, 5K8 leaves him at +1)
+Brad Wong's jab from Dokuritsu should be i10
Am I asking for too much lol?
+Brad Wong getting better bounds and options/combo's from bounds (In DOA5 vanilla Brad's 6k was a great move being a sit down stun on both NH and CH guaranteeing a launcher. Being replaced as a bound on CH sorta took away from his guaranteed options. It's also i22 so you won't land this move too much on NH. His bound follow up's are also weak).
+Brad Wong getting better +frames when stance transitions on block or hit to continue momentum. (Right now Brad Wong is only at +1 after kk4 stance transition which doesn't do much since his jab in that stance is i12 so you're still losing to i10 jabs which is a large handful of the cast. From laying with head towards foe, 5K8 leaves him at +1)
+Brad Wong's jab from Dokuritsu should be i10
Am I asking for too much lol?
EnvyDesyre
Member
Gladly..
1. Okizeme is ass.
2. Wakeup kick virtually stops everything.
3. Even when you try to attack the opponent, you still get hit.
The best way to stop wakeup kicks are with holds, blocking then throw punishing, or using a low crush. Mid wakeup kick is safe. Low wakeup kick is unsafe. Both mid & low and wakeup kicks have tracking. That's retarded. They also have invincibility on startup. And, when you tech roll, there is a slight window of invincibility, so you're safe as you get up.
This wouldn't happen in Tekken as I can easily reset you for a juggle as long as you keep backrolling. If you tech roll, you have no invincibility. You get blown the fuck up for doing a backroll or a wakeup kick. I can easily crush both of your wakeup kicks with a launcher, if I make a good read. Not the same in DOA. If you carelessly wakeup kick, I can sidestep launch, parry, refloat you, or block & punish with freedom. Each wakeup kick has different recovery frames on block & none of them have tracking. You'd be lucky if you performed a FUFT wakeup kick, as it's only -12 on block, unless you're near a wall. But most are at least -14 through -16, I believe. Each wakeup kick comes from various positions. However, the minus 14 gives a free electric or a f,b+2,1 with Lars, which means you're getting launched. And that's over 50% life gone. Not to mention, low wakeup kick gives a combo on hit, depending on the position. Tekken's ground game is intimidating compared to DOA.
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1. No it's not. The okizeme is solid to that of Super Street Fighter 4's, where you optimize both knockdowns and hard knockdowns for meaty and cross up situations (in SSF4). In 5U, the game requires you to set up your oki and react accordingly to your knockdown to net a ground hit to force the player up for frame advantage. Or thrive off the frame advantage you net from them teching up.
If the opponent is hit by strikes or juggles that force a hard knockdown and they do not tech up, then you strip them of their WUK (wake up) with strike that hits the ground, as long as you react to the knockdown and time your set up (like you're supposed to). If they happen to tech up, you're at + frame advantage anyway and you continue 50/50 offense.
Secondly, your 50/50 oki options on teched up opponents can consist of a unholdable strike along with the rest of your strike and throw mix up.
If I launch you as Ayane and end my juggle with PP6K2K, I get these options;
- You don't tech up, I have a huge array of ground hits for varying situations. But I'll keep it simple, you don't tech up, you're eating my 2H+K low that forces you up for +18.
- You tech up, I'm at +16 advantage where my 66K (66KK4), 4K and H+K are all unholdable strikes that couple well with the rest of my strike/throw mix up.
If I wall slam you with Ayane then follow up with PP6PK as my wall combo, I can do the following on the wall;
- A whiffed 3P into the 2K low follow up forces you off the ground with no WUK option at all, for +18.
- You tech up, then my whiffed 3P leaves me at +20 advantage.
I just gave you two simple oki situations, one midscreen, one for walls (full walls).
2. WUKs (wake up) most certainly do not stop everything, and they are fairly easy to bait and not hard to see and react to. The only time it is ever difficult to react to a WUK is when the defender tech rolls AND THEN does a WUK. And that is honestly just fine because the defender should have some kind of chance to have you back off of them.
WUKs are much weaker in this game than they ever were in previous DOA titles.
3. Yeah online, lol. In a normal world (offline), you are always at advantage.
Knowing how to take full (or at least better) advantage of the oki in the game takes a lot more skill than pulling off a Critical Burst combo (which is lol) because it shows which player is more knowledgeable about it.
I don't care about your ground game comparison to that of Tekken. DOA and Tekken do not play the same nor are they the same. The only reason why players complain about ground game in 5U is simply due to the fact that Vanilla's was braindead (which I find funny, because 5U's ground game is exactly the same as Vanilla's, minus the loosely and stupidly easy untechables it had).
If you don't understand how the ground game works, then you can always ask around or ask specific players how to go about it.
Yurlungur
Well-Known Member
That's true but you shouldn't be put in a bad situation right away, certain characters need their space right off the bat and then again, it's still showing this game doesn't really have a neutral like other ones
EnvyDesyre
Member
So basically, you're saying the opponent should have the chance to get up, without being penalized? Lol, wow..ok. Obviously, I know how the ground game works. You could've easily figured that out if you read in my earlier post when I mentioned Hayate's force tech game being really good. I guess you were too upset about what I said regarding DOA's ground game being ass. I also said that force tech is great, because of basically what you stated, it strips the opponent of their options. I knew you were gonna mention not caring about how my game's okizeme works (because you don't wanna hear it) & both games are not the same. No duh, I'm aware of that. I was thoroughly trying to make a comparison on why I believe Tekken's ground game is barebones. Not to say DOA's is not essential but it IS rather weak compared to Tekken & you can't even deny that. Tekken's ground game shits on DOA. But I am playing your game so I just have to adapt.
Anyway, back to your force tech statement. Yes, it's pretty much the same with Hayate. I finish my combo & I can do the following..
- PP2K~6P+K
: P+K crushes all retaliations but weak to SS.
: K same as above but sets up for another PP2K force tech or if it's at the wall, I get PP6PK into more wakeups, if you don't tech. Hayate's wallgame is insane.
: P crushes high/mid strike retaliations but whiffs against lows.
: T tracking throw for Hi Counter damage into more wakeups.
- 214PP
: Crushes low wakeup kick & can lead to either 33KK, 7K or PP6PK.
- 64H
: Beats mid wakeup kick for juggle damage.
I know how to deal with wakeup kick. I mentioned it in my previous post. All that + frame nonsense, I know about it.
I know all of Hayate's force techs.
- 3H+K
- 214K
- 3PP (2nd hit)
- 2H+K
- 33KK (2nd hit)
- 214P
- 1PK (depending on the position)
- PP2K
All give over +10 (I'm not going into full detail)
Funny how mentioned Super 4 as I believe that game limits the player of their options on wakeup. In BlazBlue, if you knock me down, I can do the following
- Foward Roll
: Great for getting me out of the corner if needed or if I think my opponent will catch a backroll when I'm midscreen.
- Backroll
: Avoids my opponent's wakeup pressure such as Ragna's 2B.
- Neutral Roll
: Avoids ground pressure which would lead to a reset if I stayed on the floor.
SF limits the player & their options. You don't have the descision to do what you want on the ground. You're in a confined space & you're stuck guessing what your opponent's gonna do. And it's either a crossup or empty jump into throw or low strike, etc. Sorry, I like freedom in my games. Having the ability to avoid your opponents setups with various rolling options is much greater than staying on the ground & teching vertically for nothing.
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Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
The cast can roll - except me! I have no choice! The best (only) option for me would be teching backwards and SS. The WUK IMO is seen as a poor mechanice since most use it as a "herp & derp reaction." That's the problem! But why shouldn't you be put in the same guessing situation? WUK/Teching/Staying down ... if you can be put in a mixup situation standing up (and seems like you rather be).
Again, everybody can roll (except Alpha), so what is your problem? Is it "grounded tracking"? (Mainly down kicks) Force-techs? Kick a dog when he's down, but he can't/shouldn't kick you as he gets up. What?
What has happened is everyone is finding ways to get rid of the implements that were put in place! Teching/WUKs/Force Techs/Invincibility. Are they perfect? No, but the ease of abuse, seems to be. There's a ton of freedom in DOA; however, it's the abuse of that freedom that's the problem! you can practically do anything in this game and get away with it! No consequences nor do some think there should be any!
I really don't like the idea of how people try to implement mechanics from other fighters especially when the game play are totally different just because it works for that fighter doesn't mean it will work for others . The only game you should compare or try to make Doa better is from virtual fighter in my opinion and thats that
EnvyDesyre
Member
Deal with it. I can apply strategies from various games onto this one. If I wanted to win by spacing/whiff punishing, I can do that. Because it works. What people don't realize is that Tekken has much better payoff as opposed to DOA.I really don't like the idea of how people try to implement mechanics from other fighters especially when the game play are totally different just because it works for that fighter doesn't mean it will work for others . The only game you should compare or try to make Doa better is from virtual fighter in my opinion and thats that
No. SSF4's Oki is leagues better than DOA's oki. You can't even compare the two.
The problem with this game's oki is that only a select amount of characters can have fluent, almost constant oki while the rest of the characters are SOL.
Radiance
Well-Known Member
Is that really a fair statement considering we rarely see tech with underplayed characters? I think TN gave us a few resourceful tools; ie crushing wake up kicks with attacks that do 20pts of damage or more. Players just have to spend more time in practice finding new things. Some characters just have it easier than others; Rig, Eliot, Gen Fu, Helena, pai just to throw out a few. Rig's oki game is probably on par with DOA5 vanilla. But another thing Hajin said, utilizing tools like hard knockdowns also comes into play where characters either have to tech or eat a force tech.
Edit: Hard knock downs in DOA5U are probably the closet we'll get to oki in USF4 because whether they immediately tech or get's force teched, they're still in a situation where they have to guess out or possibly risk resetting the situation again.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
All I want from this game is for the oki to be consistent across the cast and not just like 6-8 characters (fortunately 2 of the 3 characters I play seriously is included in that 6-8 even if their oki is wall dependent for the most part). This game should not return to the force tech route of vanilla DOA 5. The force tech route strips the defending player of a wakeup option they are intended to have which is the WU kick. As the ground game is right now the concept focusing on hard knockdowns is great but the implementation can be improved because it is currently mediocre at best in my honest opinion.
If I run up to you and you are laying on the ground while I perform a sweep I expect you to get swept off the ground not watch my sweep whiff over your body because you have more invincibility frames than you should for being grounded. The invincibility frames should be enough to prevent the force tech nonsense of vanilla but not be a hazard to an attempt to get people off of the ground with simple pokes. It's great that 6-8 characters in the cast don't really have this problem...what about the other 25+?
The other thing that I'd like to be changed is to make the animations of WU kick and just standard wakeup more distinguishable. The way it is now it allows for the aggressor to get counterhit out of "meaty" attempts by people that do just the standard wakeup because they either feared getting counterblown by a wakeup kick and didn't want to chance a tech up attempt vs the defenders invincibility frames or thought they were the shit and kept dashing toward your grounded body with 66. This does not happen as often offline but the fact that it even occurs bothers me. There is no excuse or reason this should be allowed to happen in DOA's ground game.
On the subject of the WU kick they should not even have sniper rifle range on top of the rest of the properties they have. In general mid WU kick has no business allowing stun game on counter hit. +26 no SE +17 fastest are you kidding me? The WU kick in this game is akin to the dragon punch or reversal with invulnerability in other fighting games so it should have those properties. No meterless safe Dragon punch gives the defender a chance to take half life and steal momentum. No meterless safe Dragon punch is hitting an opponent that is spaced out or attempting to space themselves out.
That's all. Just give the cast consistent oki while allowing the defender to steal momentum on the correct reads. Also I would say SF oki for it's cast is far more consistent than DOA oki from the play I have seen. The oki in DOA isn't bad but I'm sorry. I can't consider this good when only a handful of characters in the game have been shown to possess real oki. TN has a solid enough start with this hard knockdown route for oki now they need to take the steps to improve and perfect it.
If I run up to you and you are laying on the ground while I perform a sweep I expect you to get swept off the ground not watch my sweep whiff over your body because you have more invincibility frames than you should for being grounded. The invincibility frames should be enough to prevent the force tech nonsense of vanilla but not be a hazard to an attempt to get people off of the ground with simple pokes. It's great that 6-8 characters in the cast don't really have this problem...what about the other 25+?
The other thing that I'd like to be changed is to make the animations of WU kick and just standard wakeup more distinguishable. The way it is now it allows for the aggressor to get counterhit out of "meaty" attempts by people that do just the standard wakeup because they either feared getting counterblown by a wakeup kick and didn't want to chance a tech up attempt vs the defenders invincibility frames or thought they were the shit and kept dashing toward your grounded body with 66. This does not happen as often offline but the fact that it even occurs bothers me. There is no excuse or reason this should be allowed to happen in DOA's ground game.
On the subject of the WU kick they should not even have sniper rifle range on top of the rest of the properties they have. In general mid WU kick has no business allowing stun game on counter hit. +26 no SE +17 fastest are you kidding me? The WU kick in this game is akin to the dragon punch or reversal with invulnerability in other fighting games so it should have those properties. No meterless safe Dragon punch gives the defender a chance to take half life and steal momentum. No meterless safe Dragon punch is hitting an opponent that is spaced out or attempting to space themselves out.
That's all. Just give the cast consistent oki while allowing the defender to steal momentum on the correct reads. Also I would say SF oki for it's cast is far more consistent than DOA oki from the play I have seen. The oki in DOA isn't bad but I'm sorry. I can't consider this good when only a handful of characters in the game have been shown to possess real oki. TN has a solid enough start with this hard knockdown route for oki now they need to take the steps to improve and perfect it.
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@EnvyDesyre No, you're always rewarded for your knockdowns. You're penalized if you dont capitalize and mess up your own set up. And no one is upset, lol. Someone not agreeing with you doesn't imply they're upset. You making comparisons to another game with a completely different ground game doesn't imply the 5U's ground game weak either. It is a different game with a different structure.
@Nereus The roster has access to the same oki in this game, not a "select amount".
@Tenryuga You have only seen few characters with consistent oki because you see the same characters being played all the time. The whole cast has access to the game's oki options. The issue is that most still dont understand it because the community spends more time concerning themselves with costumes and hairstyles, rather than discussing deeper layers of the game to level up and further their play develop.
The complaints I constantly see about okizeme are always the same for the exact same reason. There should have been a thread created by now to discuss how oki works in the game so players can understand it and figure stuff out after getting the gist of it.
@Nereus The roster has access to the same oki in this game, not a "select amount".
@Tenryuga You have only seen few characters with consistent oki because you see the same characters being played all the time. The whole cast has access to the game's oki options. The issue is that most still dont understand it because the community spends more time concerning themselves with costumes and hairstyles, rather than discussing deeper layers of the game to level up and further their play develop.
The complaints I constantly see about okizeme are always the same for the exact same reason. There should have been a thread created by now to discuss how oki works in the game so players can understand it and figure stuff out after getting the gist of it.
In my humble opinion, I wouldn't compare DOA's okizeme to Street Fighter's. Not all characters have the luxury of good oki. Yeah, there are knockdowns in the game that open up possibilities for it to be good, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they have it well enough to do anything with it. SF's okizeme allows everyone to get something from it. Even the characters who are considered weak.
You could also say that there hasn't been enough of exploration of characters in DOA since there's really a small portion of characters that have been played up to this point whereas SF's cast have been played out. This is due to people focusing unnecessary stuff in the game rather than playing the game seriously & learning it for what it really is, a fighting game. Even still, considering how long that DOA5 in general has been out (which is nearly 3 years now), there should be a general idea of who has the oki & who doesn't among the good players & knowledgeable in the community. There are knockdowns that lead to teching situations both offensively & defensively, but my beef with it is the ground game's invincibility.
People would argue that DOA5 vanillas ground game was "braindead", but what it would do was keep people from lying on the ground forever. Am I saying that I'm in complete favor of vanilla's ground game? No, I'm just saying that you would be teching a lot faster than you would in 5U because you would fear the offensive player's ability to strip your options. I'm just wanting consistency with it of some kind for all characters. Just some aspects of vanilla's & not just play the guessing game, risking the loss of my advantage. It's either that, or just have to back away to avoid it all together.
You could also say that there hasn't been enough of exploration of characters in DOA since there's really a small portion of characters that have been played up to this point whereas SF's cast have been played out. This is due to people focusing unnecessary stuff in the game rather than playing the game seriously & learning it for what it really is, a fighting game. Even still, considering how long that DOA5 in general has been out (which is nearly 3 years now), there should be a general idea of who has the oki & who doesn't among the good players & knowledgeable in the community. There are knockdowns that lead to teching situations both offensively & defensively, but my beef with it is the ground game's invincibility.
People would argue that DOA5 vanillas ground game was "braindead", but what it would do was keep people from lying on the ground forever. Am I saying that I'm in complete favor of vanilla's ground game? No, I'm just saying that you would be teching a lot faster than you would in 5U because you would fear the offensive player's ability to strip your options. I'm just wanting consistency with it of some kind for all characters. Just some aspects of vanilla's & not just play the guessing game, risking the loss of my advantage. It's either that, or just have to back away to avoid it all together.
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How exactly would you know that the roster in general does not have decent or solid oki options? Again, most players haven't figured out this game's okizeme because it is the least discussed subject. Or most haven't bothered focusing on it. Even though it is one of the most important.
That's exactly why more things are still so underdeveloped in 5U (and Vanilla), you just said it. Because there hasn't hardly been enough exploration throughout the game outside of what combos you can do and where., for the most part. The things I've found with my characters and even just 10-20 minutes in the lab with characters I don't even play, tells me how much gets overlooked by players too often.
Yes it was braindead because it required no absolute skill to do the same simple untechable, and that's all you had to focus on and it lead the game into a very linear and one minded direction. If anything, that one aspect of the game is the very reason why Vanilla was such a hugely unexplored game.
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