System What would make LR better than Ultimate?

[J.D.E.]

How exactly would you know that the roster in general does not have decent or solid oki options? Again, most players haven't figured out this game's okizeme because it is the least discussed subject. Or most haven't bothered focusing on it. Even though it is one of the most important. The majority of ground attacks whiff on a grounded opponent.



That's exactly why more things are still so underdeveloped in 5U (and Vanilla), you just said it. Because there hasn't hardly been enough exploration throughout the game outside of what combos you can do and where., for the most part. The things I've found with my characters and even just 10-20 minutes in the lab with characters I don't even play, tells me how much gets overlooked by players too often.



Yes it was braindead because it required no absolute skill to do the same simple untechable, and that's all you had to focus on and it lead the game into a very linear and one minded direction. If anything, that one aspect of the game is the very reason why Vanilla was such a hugely unexplored game.

I'm not saying that vanilla's wasn't braindead. I just said that it would have you fearing being on the ground because you were instantly teched & if you got up pressing buttons, you were fucked. I said that people would argue this subject, but I still like some aspects of it. The problem that I have with the game's ground game personally is its invincibility.

My 1st post goes along with the 2nd post about people not taking it seriously enough. I still wouldn't compare it to SF though because there characters that you haven't seen. Either that, or they don't have as easy as other characters. Which is what my post is based off of. It's either or at this point. The game has been out nearly 3 years if you count this year & it's closing end leading into LR. Yet, you're seeing the same characters being played.

 

[EnvyDesyre]

The cast can roll - except me! I have no choice! The best (only) option for me would be teching backwards and SS. The WUK IMO is seen as a poor mechanice since most use it as a "herp & derp reaction." That's the problem! But why shouldn't you be put in the same guessing situation? WUK/Teching/Staying down ... if you can be put in a mixup situation standing up (and seems like you rather be).

Again, everybody can roll (except Alpha), so what is your problem? Is it "grounded tracking"? (Mainly down kicks) Force-techs? Kick a dog when he's down, but he can't/shouldn't kick you as he gets up. What?

What has happened is everyone is finding ways to get rid of the implements that were put in place! Teching/WUKs/Force Techs/Invincibility. Are they perfect? No, but the ease of abuse, seems to be. There's a ton of freedom in DOA; however, it's the abuse of that freedom that's the problem! you can practically do anything in this game and get away with it! No consequences nor do some think there should be any!

"what is your problem?"

My problem is that the opponent can freely get up without taking any risks, because of slight invincibility. I should be able to attack or reset you in a combo as I see fit.

"Kick a dog when he's down, but he can't/shouldn't kick you as he gets up."

Yeah, because I deserve to get rewarded with grounded hits/relaunches/low parries if you can't stop me from doing them. In Tekken, you have no invincibility. I can freely attack you when you're down or trying to get up. That's the beauty of okizeme. In this game, all you have to do is tech roll on wakeup & you're fine.

"What has happened is everyone is finding ways to get rid of the implements that were put in place!"

Not at all. But I would like for TN to nerf invincibility. There is no counter to it. If there is, show me. I think it has to go. Doesn't make sense how you can rely on the system instead your own judgement to get out of a situation you deserve to be in.

"There's a ton of freedom in DOA; however, it's the abuse of that freedom that's the problem! you can practically do anything in this game and get away with it! No consequences nor do some think there should be any!"

No there's not. This game constantly penalizes you with minus frame garbage on moves that don't stun on NH. Hayate only has 1K, 3K, 2H+K for frame advantage. That's nothing compared to the plethora of attacks the characters have in Tekken which all give frame advantage. While some give disadvantage. DOA is the exact opposite. Everything is minus, (aside from critical stuns) while only a select few moves give + on hit. With Hayate, there's a limit to my options. 3K is +1. I jab. I'm -2. You call that freedom? Of course, mixing up comes into play. But my point is, why should I get penalized for attacking because you don't block?

@iHajinShinobi Right, but even if you read my earlier posts, (which I don't think you did) there wouldn't have been a need to try & correct me. You immidiately jumped to conclusions, assuming I don't know how the ground game works. I just gave you an obvious idea that I do. And I can still make valid opinions regarding both games, even if I know they are different. That's what people do. I think DOA's oki is weak. I prefer Tekken for it's better system, while others prefer DOA, SF, VF etc. It's highly debatable.

 

[SilverForte]

Tekken is a completely different system, it doesn't have stuns, it has real attack punishment, the ground game is completely different, you can't really compare the two.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

Tekken is a completely different system, it doesn't have stuns, it has attack punishment, the ground game is completely different, you can't really compare the two.

That's what I've been trying to say.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

I'm not saying that vanilla's wasn't braindead. I just said that it would have you fearing being on the ground. I said that people would argue this subject. The only problem that I have with the game's ground game personally is its invincibility.

My 1st post goes along with the 2nd post about people not taking it seriously enough. I still wouldn't compare it to SF though because there characters that you haven't seen. Either that, or they don't have as easy as other characters. Which is what my post is based off of. It's either or at this point. The game has been out nearly 3 years if you count this year & it's closing end leading into LR. Yet, you're seeing the same characters being played.

Don't FTs solve the invincibility problem? This is my problem! Wanting fixes for the fixes! The defender is screaming "I need a way to get up!" Now, the attackers are screaming - no bitch stay down, but want options taken away when they're down! Catch 22? *shrugs*

 

[EnvyDesyre]

Tekken is a completely different system, it doesn't have stuns, it has real attack punishment, the ground game is completely different, you can't really compare the two.

Tekken has multiple stuns.

DS double over stun
tap f to escape in most cases, you can usually launch opponent
FS fall back stun
tap f to escape in most cases, you can usually launch opponent
MS minor stun
various animations, in most cases doesn't lead to guaranteed hits
KS kneel stun
opponent is forced onto one knee, usually does not act as a combo starter
CS crumple stun
opponent crumples to the ground in front of you right away, usually acts as a combo starter
CF crumple fall
opponent stay briefly upright before slumping to the ground, usually acts a combo starter
CFS crumple fall stun
opponent is pushed away while crumping to the ground, can be a combo starter

The stuns you're thinking of are the ones that lead to variables of 50/50s into either launch or throw.

 

[J.D.E.]

Don't FTs solve the invincibility problem? This is my problem! Wanting fixes for the fixes! The defender is screaming "I need a way to get up!" Now, the attackers are screaming - no bitch stay down, but want options taken away when they're down! Catch 22? *shrugs*

Yes, but you have ground attacks that whiff because of that. It just misses like Tenryuga mentioned. Thats my issue

Edit: OK, I was going to hold off on it because i was afk but I'm using a phone so here's another thing that i have with the ground game. After this, ill answer questions if you ask & then im done with the thread.

When I'm playing Street Fighter with Ryu, & im doing basic combo links & juggles with hard knockdowns, & im finding tech after that knowing that my opponent cant do shit about it, like no wake up attack whatsoever, & im getting free damage for you teching, im like "wow, he's not going to do that again. He'll think twice before teching or just leaning on the buttons " If you want to lose a huge chunk of your life by mashing out on the ground go ahead. But you're paying a major tax fee.

When playing DOA, when i find a hard knockdown with a force tech, you're having to worry about your attacks whiffing. Yeah I'm saying holy shit especially when i have a pseudo, but there's always that possibility of a ground attack whiffing & you're getting either punished or hit with a wake up kick because of invincibility of the ground. The game is not bad, but i just dont agree with the aspect of the ground game. I keep things like this to myself because i know people will say im gripping about nothing but im really not. I love DOA always will but I'm not going to act like i like everything about it.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

@iHajinShinobi Right, but even if you read my earlier posts, (which I don't think you did) there wouldn't have been a need to try & correct me. You immidiately jumped to conclusions, assuming I don't know how the ground game works. I just gave you an obvious idea that I do. And I can still make valid opinions regarding both games, even if I know they are different. That's what people do. I think DOA's oki is weak. I prefer Tekken for it's better system, while others prefer DOA, SF, VF etc. It's highly debatable.

You're right, you are entitled to your opinion, however that doesn't mean it is correct, it's your opinion. Saying Tekken has a better system is an opinion. The fact in that is that it is a different system, not a better or weaker one. And no, I gave a simple explanation about oki in 5U, lol.

And Hayate's PP2K/PP2K~6P+K is not a real oki situation midscreen. Your post also does not explain any relevance to what I mentioned in mine using Ayane as an example. Your post explains "what if" scenarios without actually reacting to the knockdown.

Both my midscreen and wall examples explain situations that go on when I react to the knockdown. I will reap the benefits accordingly. My situations eliminate the WUK option, yours is a guess and isn't eliminating the WUK. The only bit that is similiar to what I said is getting a wall slam for a PP6PK wall combo into PP2K with Hayate.

 

[Argentus]

So basically, you're saying the opponent should have the chance to get up, without being penalized? Lol, wow..ok.

 

[UncleKitchener]

I fucking love Tekken, but we really can't compare it to DOA here. Tekken stopped having variable jab speeds from 5DR onwards and generally all standard pokes with the exception of Ganryu's are pretty much the same in terms of startup and same goes for VF. It also actively started using capsule bounding boxes and a crush system from around the same time. Oki was also changed a lot from 6 onwards. Also, hit properties and the knockdown/launch you get from wake up kicks in Tekken are different because it either leads to a launch (FDFA low WUK) or a slight shift in momentum which can change at any time unlike DOA. Every character in the game has a pick up against back rolls and there are also ways for the person knocked down to get up safely if they're not being a pillock. It's a game of dexterity and intelligent planing.

DOA focuses more on the conditioning aspect and just being random and unpredictable. It's just how the game was designed and we're playing it. No matter how much we push these points to the creators, they won't change the core design and their idea of what makes a 3D fighter. Christie was designed to be played by rolling your face on the buttons and Bass was designed to be shitty slow and only for overly patient people. Brad was designed for those who like setups and guessing.

Momentum shift in VF and Tekken are different compared to DOA and as much as I prefer the oki game in those games, it's just how they designed it and it's harder to port that into this game, because some characters would just never let you gain any further momentum once you're knocked down. If you play a slow character, sometimes your only possible window for a momentum shift would be that wakeup kick.

So yeah, I hope mods don't delete posts and let this discussion continue, because these are good points to make and it's healthy, but we gotta face the facts that TN is not going to change any major part of the engine unless they want to and they deem it to be profitable and better for shorter matches on the arcade cabs. Personally, I'm bored with the game, hence why I went back to Tekken, but I feel like I did learn something from DOA too and it would be a shame for me not to share it.

 

[TLEE SAID THIS:]

• Get rid of VF

I could go on, really...

No way, man, Jacky's awesome.

 

[crapoZK]

I like the FT system now, but I do prefer Vanilla's, or even DOA4's! DOA4 only allowed 2 hits on a downed opponent before they're FTd. It wasn't guaranteed, because I think that you could tech roll after you were hit by the first attack, but you COULD NOT WUK after being hit once. The invisibility was also GONE when hit once on the floor. (I think that's how it works) Another idea should be that DOWN attacks make you get up when used, and the you cannot side roll, or WUK. You will just get up. Like what COM does on Level 4 difficulty.

In 5U now, you are invisible when touching the ground for a bit TOO long, so if they would reduce the invisibility frames on the opponent, still with the chance to get up or WUK, that would be fine. You would still be able to FT when the opponent is on the ground for when the invisibility ends.

I would also like more moves to counter WUKs, but at PRECISE timing. Not so you get stuffed by a jab or something ridiculous. Mid WUKs shouldn't be so strong on the stun, because it puts you in a DEEP, DEEP Stun. If it would give you a stun like Zack's 6K on NH, that'd be fine. I like that idea. If TN doesn't decide to do this, I'd just suggest that WUKs have more of a throw punish capability than what they do.

Question: Can low OHs eat Low WUKs?

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I fucking love Tekken, but we really can't compare it to DOA here. Tekken stopped having variable jab speeds from 5DR onwards and generally all standard pokes with the exception of Ganryu's are pretty much the same in terms of startup and same goes for VF. It also actively started using capsule bounding boxes and a crush system from around the same time. Oki was also changed a lot from 6 onwards. Also, hit properties and the knockdown/launch you get from wake up kicks in Tekken are different because it either leads to a launch (FDFA low WUK) or a slight shift in momentum which can change at any time unlike DOA. Every character in the game has a pick up against back rolls and there are also ways for the person knocked down to get up safely if they're not being a pillock. It's a game of dexterity and intelligent planing.

DOA focuses more on the conditioning aspect and just being random and unpredictable. It's just how the game was designed and we're playing it. No matter how much we push these points to the creators, they won't change the core design and their idea of what makes a 3D fighter. Christie was designed to be played by rolling your face on the buttons and Bass was designed to be shitty slow and only for overly patient people. Brad was designed for those who like setups and guessing.

Momentum shift in VF and Tekken are different compared to DOA and as much as I prefer the oki game in those games, it's just how they designed it and it's harder to port that into this game, because some characters would just never let you gain any further momentum once you're knocked down. If you play a slow character, sometimes your only possible window for a momentum shift would be that wakeup kick.

So yeah, I hope mods don't delete posts and let this discussion continue, because these are good points to make and it's healthy, but we gotta face the facts that TN is not going to change any major part of the engine unless they want to and they deem it to be profitable and better for shorter matches on the arcade cabs. Personally, I'm bored with the game, hence why I went back to Tekken, but I feel like I did learn something from DOA too and it would be a shame for me not to share it.

I wish I could go to London and play you, lol.

 

[Tenryuga]

So from the last few posts we have learned that the UNIVERSAL gripe everyone has with the oki stems from the invincibility on grounded opponents. If there is a way to make it so that invincibility is lessened without allowing the braindead untechables of DOA5 we are golden. Work on it TN.

 

[crapoZK]

Another gripe is this. Having Zack do moves on COM, but not usable in normal play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=Buc6LIrMFYs
Why?

 

[TLEE SAID THIS:]

So from the last few posts we have learned that the UNIVERSAL gripe everyone has with the oki stems from the invincibility on grounded opponents. If there is a way to make it so that invincibility is lessened without allowing the braindead untechables of DOA5 we are golden. Work on it TN.

It probably won't fix the problem, but maybe buffing the stomp attack on floored opponents would help.

 

[TsukuyomiSan]

How about they just get rid of Genfu.

I totally agree with you, Gen Fu spams you on the ground with low punches whenever he can, and rusts the gameplay with endless and annoying combos.

 

[Argentus]

I fucking love Tekken, but we really can't compare it to DOA here. Tekken stopped having variable jab speeds from 5DR onwards and generally all standard pokes with the exception of Ganryu's are pretty much the same in terms of startup and same goes for VF. It also actively started using capsule bounding boxes and a crush system from around the same time. Oki was also changed a lot from 6 onwards. Also, hit properties and the knockdown/launch you get from wake up kicks in Tekken are different because it either leads to a launch (FDFA low WUK) or a slight shift in momentum which can change at any time unlike DOA. Every character in the game has a pick up against back rolls and there are also ways for the person knocked down to get up safely if they're not being a pillock. It's a game of dexterity and intelligent planing.

DOA focuses more on the conditioning aspect and just being random and unpredictable. It's just how the game was designed and we're playing it. No matter how much we push these points to the creators, they won't change the core design and their idea of what makes a 3D fighter. Christie was designed to be played by rolling your face on the buttons and Bass was designed to be shitty slow and only for overly patient people. Brad was designed for those who like setups and guessing.

Momentum shift in VF and Tekken are different compared to DOA and as much as I prefer the oki game in those games, it's just how they designed it and it's harder to port that into this game, because some characters would just never let you gain any further momentum once you're knocked down. If you play a slow character, sometimes your only possible window for a momentum shift would be that wakeup kick.

So yeah, I hope mods don't delete posts and let this discussion continue, because these are good points to make and it's healthy, but we gotta face the facts that TN is not going to change any major part of the engine unless they want to and they deem it to be profitable and better for shorter matches on the arcade cabs. Personally, I'm bored with the game, hence why I went back to Tekken, but I feel like I did learn something from DOA too and it would be a shame for me not to share it.

I hate when people say its just guessing and/or random. Its simply not true. If you try to be random or just guess, the odds will stack against you really quick. What DOA is actually about is mind games and reads, and generally outplaying the opponent, rather than just being about execution, rather than most other fighters.

The issue is that people approach DOA as if it were like other fighters, then rage that there's more to it than just memorizing combo inputs. Most of the complaints towards DOA that I've seen, some even in this thread, have all boiled down to the same "I want to continue my combos unhindered, but I can't because of defensive options, so this game sucks."

Its ridiculous.


*douses self in asbestos*

So from the last few posts we have learned that the UNIVERSAL gripe everyone has with the oki stems from the invincibility on grounded opponents. If there is a way to make it so that invincibility is lessened without allowing the braindead untechables of DOA5 we are golden. Work on it TN.

I still don't understand the complaint. You can block, evade, hold, or crush wakeup options so....what's the problem? Grounded opponents are far from invincible. I believe you should only be able to do the above, as well as down attacks and overheads to grounded opponents. Force techs or ground bouncing grounded enemies is just retarded and seems there solely for people who lack patience.

 

[EnvyDesyre]

You're right, you are entitled to your opinion, however that doesn't mean it is correct, it's your opinion. Saying Tekken has a better system is an opinion. The fact in that is that it is a different system, not a better or weaker one. And no, I gave a simple explanation about oki in 5U, lol.

And Hayate's PP2K/PP2K~6P+K is not a real oki situation midscreen. Your post also does not explain any relevance to what I mentioned in mine using Ayane as an example. Your post explains "what if" scenarios without actually reacting to the knockdown.

Both my midscreen and wall examples explain situations that go on when I react to the knockdown. I will reap the benefits accordingly. My situations eliminate the WUK option, yours is a guess and isn't eliminating the WUK. The only bit that is similiar to what I said is getting a wall slam for a PP6PK wall combo into PP2K with Hayate.

So? What's your point? PP2K~6P+K has benefited me too many times in matches, regardless of it not being a "real" oki situation. I will keep using it. Until my opponent knows there's a slight window of when he can wakeup kick, to stop me from doing it. Just like when I always catch people with 5H+K, 3K setups. If my opponent is ignorant & doesn't realize he can SE & Counter Hold very late in stun (I neglect the 8P to apply a mixup) well I'm gonna keep abusing it. Because that's free damage for me. And TN will probably nerf Hayate & strip him of his BT setup, anyway. When that happens, I'll laugh at em'. So, might as well enjoy it while I still can.

@Argentus I'm certainly not raging over something, even if I have the utmost problem with it.. come on now. Also, the application of Force Tech is mandatory. If you don't like it, tech roll.

 

[UncleKitchener]

I wish I could go to London and play you, lol.

Feel free to come over any time. I always have an extra empty room.