Plenty of Leifang In players have great and consistent control over her hitboxes. And such moves are actually not all that slow, though even if they were that wouldn't be of great detriment considering that many "long-range" moves are.
Guess you didn't see the comparison of the long range moves between Hitomi and Leifang that I posted earlier. There's really no argument there. And by the way, her hit boxes change depending on whether it's normal hit or counter hit. I doubt anyone can really have control over that against characters that are a) better than her at long range and b) have way superior movement. Not to mention it's impossible to land one of those on reaction based on counter vs normal hit.
What I said was that there is no character who lets you bypass game knowledge in order to use the character "properly," at least to a degree that is greater than that of Leifang. For example, Ein is an easier character to use than Akira. But if you really want to use Ein properly, you still have to know the game very well. You will have to know your frame data, hitboxes, environments etc. to get the most out of Ein, despite being a relatively straightforward character.
In the sense that you still need to know your frame data, hit boxes etc to get most of him, I agree with you. I'm not disagreeing with you in the sense that for every character you need to know all that stuff to reach say 'expert' level at the game. However, that is not what I mean. We were talking about which character is good for beginners. Knowing a single character well is the first thing that is required in order to understand basic mechanics properly. Would you say Ein and Akira are equally good for beginners? I think you would agree that by the time you start reaching the hard part with Ein, you've already learned quite a bit regarding the game. With Akira, you'll be struggling a lot more to learn the inputs rather than learning the mechanics. That's what makes Ein a better starter than Akira. You're mixing up the high level version of a character with its entry level.
Going back to Leifang.... Leifang is not a well-rounded character, despite her being an extremely powerful character. Her defense and evasion is through the roof, while her long range offense is weak. Someone starting out with this character can for example develop some defending/evasion habits that will hamper that person with any other character. In other words, if you use Leifang, your defense will be under-developed, especially at close range. You're much better off with Hitomi in this regard.
"you don't need to know the game very well in order to let her function properly" any more than that would apply to any other character
You're practically saying that every character is equally easy/hard to learn
While newcomers may not understand how to utilize all [Leifang's] gimmicks, the same could be said for any character.
Look. That newcomers don't understand this doesn't change the fact that Leifang is harder to use properly than say Hitomi at the beginning. Again, knowing your character well is the first thing that is required before you can really start understanding the mechanics well. Learning Hitomi is easier than Leifang. For Leifang, you have to learn defending, and that takes knowledge of the mechanics. And once you get a hold of this, her defense tools are so good that if you ever want to play another character, you'll get stomped since you don't know what to do with the lack of these defense tools. I'll let the thread starter do the talking here while using Leifang;
I don't fully understand holds or defense yet so I'm getting blown up.
See? You need to base your assessment on the experiences of players, not what you as an experienced player believes beginners should experience.
Back to characters who work well for beginners, Leifang doesn't have any exceptional hurdles for newcomers that would make her a bad choice.
Oh really... Let's see.
Leifang's basic options are in no way abnormal and there are no substantial execution barriers keeping people out
BBeginners don't understand the basic options initially. I can tell you right now that her weird fighting animations is a huge hurdle. And if they're behind weird animations like Leifang's, it takes additional adjustment and getting accustomed on the side of the player. She's not the weirdest, but, she's up there. I know I had a lot of trouble understanding the animations when I started with her. And a big part of her difficulty comes from her animations.
Uh...
Question 1: What are these good mix-ups you're talking about? The mix-ups that can all easily be sidestepped, crushed, interrupted or grabbed?
Question 2: Are these superior to Hitomi's?
respectable safety for those who get a bit too button-happy
Yeah... If you believe this, I can understand why you say she's a good beginner character. Her safety is not really that great. As mentioned before, mainly her easily crushed highs are safe, or her slow moves are safe. Leifang is not a character to be button happy with.
Question 3: Is Hitomi safer than Leifang? If no, go to question 4. If yes, go to question 6.
Question 4: Can a character's ability for mix-up (partially) compensate for the lack of safety? If yes, go to question 5. If no, well, you don't know the game.
Question 5: Is Hitomi's mix-up game superior to Leifang's? If yes, go to question 6. If no, well, you don't know the game.
Question 6: Why are we arguing?
She's a perfectly fine choice for beginners. Playing her even without reliance on the "complicated" gimmicks will still hold up as well as other newbie-friendly characters, and it would only go uphill from there. Nothing about her would give a newbie an abnormally difficult time in the same way Pai would.
Why did the thread started find her;
Pai only becomes difficult at higher levels. For beginners, she's quite friendly. How a character looks to you is not how it looks to a beginner. You say Leifang is fine for beginners. Yet, we have a beginner saying she's hard, and Christie, which is not really the easiest due to being more unsafe;
Christie is another fun character, with a much more aggressive playstyle but lots of good range pokes.
Having been a member of DOAWorld for a long while, and playing a bunch of newcomers when Dimensions came out, I've spoken to a lot of newbies and their experiences. I can tell you one thing. Keeping a player interested is the first thing that is required for them to keep playing the game. If they experience a character as 'very difficult', you cannot tell them that their experience is wrong and that the character is fine to start out with. If the effort seems too high, the mountain too high to climb or whatever, they'll leave. I haven't met any beginner that says Leifang is attractive to use as a beginner.