DOA5LR Having a character crisis - who should I pick?

[YBNDM]

I think that NightAntilli has made a lot of very convincing points so I've decided to run with Hitomi. Her being the tutorial character also helps, since I'm familiar with many of her moves already. A Hitomi that plays a little more patiently than going hog wild might be interesting.

Thanks for contributions all.

Go get 'em tiger!

 

[Lulu]

I think that NightAntilli has made a lot of very convincing points so I've decided to run with Hitomi. Her being the tutorial character also helps, since I'm familiar with many of her moves already. A Hitomi that plays a little more patiently than going hog wild might be interesting.

Thanks for contributions all.

Great Choice !!!

The "OSU" has Spoken !!!

 

[Brute]

Leifang's telekinetic hitbox abuse actually gives her great range, and you don't "need to know the game very well in order to let her function properly" any more than that would apply to any other character.

I'm not going to make a pitch for a specific character because I find that people's reasons for picking a main or sub are usually not what they claim them to be, so trying to find a nice fit for someone you don't know very well is a bit like pissing in the dark.

 

[Lulu]

is a bit like pissing in the dark.

Sounds like fun.

 

[NightAntilli]

Leifang's telekinetic hitbox abuse actually gives her great range, and you don't "need to know the game very well in order to let her function properly" any more than that would apply to any other character.

I have to disagree with you on that. Yes she does have telekinetic hit boxes like you call it, although the majority of the time those are lucky hits rather than something anyone can have real control over. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of those moves are slow.

She is not a good character to learn the game with. Too many shenanigans at the same time. You're practically saying that every character is equally easy/hard to learn, which is not true. Something like Akira is a lot harder to learn than Kokoro for example. Saying that Akira would be a good starter character compared to Kokoro would not be true. Same applies for Leifang vs Hitomi. Hitomi is a lot more straightforward than Leifang.

 

[Brute]

I have to disagree with you on that. Yes she does have telekinetic hit boxes like you call it, although the majority of the time those are lucky hits rather than something anyone can have real control over. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of those moves are slow.

Plenty of Leifang players have great and consistent control over her hitboxes. And such moves are actually not all that slow, though even if they were that wouldn't be of great detriment considering that many "long-range" moves are.

She is not a good character to learn the game with. Too many shenanigans at the same time. You're practically saying that every character is equally easy/hard to learn, which is not true. Something like Akira is a lot harder to learn than Kokoro for example. Saying that Akira would be a good starter character compared to Kokoro would not be true. Same applies for Leifang vs Hitomi. Hitomi is a lot more straightforward than Leifang.

I did not "practically say" any such thing. What I said was that there is no character who lets you bypass game knowledge in order to use the character "properly," at least to a degree that is greater than that of Leifang. For example, Ein is an easier character to use than Akira. But if you really want to use Ein properly, you still have to know the game very well. You will have to know your frame data, hitboxes, environments etc. to get the most out of Ein, despite being a relatively straightforward character.

Back to characters who work well for beginners, Leifang doesn't have any exceptional hurdles for newcomers that would make her a bad choice. While newcomers may not understand how to utilize all her gimmicks, the same could be said for any character. While that may not be using her "properly," a newcomer won't really be using any character properly so that's not of paramount emphasis. Leifang's basic options are in no way abnormal and there are no substantial execution barriers keeping people out. She has medium-fast poke speeds, good string mix-ups, favorable built-in crushes/hitbox properties, intuitive inputs and respectable safety for those who get a bit too button-happy. She's a perfectly fine choice for beginners. Playing her even without reliance on the "complicated" gimmicks will still hold up as well as other newbie-friendly characters, and it would only go uphill from there. Nothing about her would give a newbie an abnormally difficult time in the same way Pai would.

 

[NightAntilli]

Plenty of Leifang In players have great and consistent control over her hitboxes. And such moves are actually not all that slow, though even if they were that wouldn't be of great detriment considering that many "long-range" moves are.

Guess you didn't see the comparison of the long range moves between Hitomi and Leifang that I posted earlier. There's really no argument there. And by the way, her hit boxes change depending on whether it's normal hit or counter hit. I doubt anyone can really have control over that against characters that are a) better than her at long range and b) have way superior movement. Not to mention it's impossible to land one of those on reaction based on counter vs normal hit.

What I said was that there is no character who lets you bypass game knowledge in order to use the character "properly," at least to a degree that is greater than that of Leifang. For example, Ein is an easier character to use than Akira. But if you really want to use Ein properly, you still have to know the game very well. You will have to know your frame data, hitboxes, environments etc. to get the most out of Ein, despite being a relatively straightforward character.

In the sense that you still need to know your frame data, hit boxes etc to get most of him, I agree with you. I'm not disagreeing with you in the sense that for every character you need to know all that stuff to reach say 'expert' level at the game. However, that is not what I mean. We were talking about which character is good for beginners. Knowing a single character well is the first thing that is required in order to understand basic mechanics properly. Would you say Ein and Akira are equally good for beginners? I think you would agree that by the time you start reaching the hard part with Ein, you've already learned quite a bit regarding the game. With Akira, you'll be struggling a lot more to learn the inputs rather than learning the mechanics. That's what makes Ein a better starter than Akira. You're mixing up the high level version of a character with its entry level.

Going back to Leifang.... Leifang is not a well-rounded character, despite her being an extremely powerful character. Her defense and evasion is through the roof, while her long range offense is weak. Someone starting out with this character can for example develop some defending/evasion habits that will hamper that person with any other character. In other words, if you use Leifang, your defense will be under-developed, especially at close range. You're much better off with Hitomi in this regard.

"you don't need to know the game very well in order to let her function properly" any more than that would apply to any other character

You're practically saying that every character is equally easy/hard to learn

While newcomers may not understand how to utilize all [Leifang's] gimmicks, the same could be said for any character.

Look. That newcomers don't understand this doesn't change the fact that Leifang is harder to use properly than say Hitomi at the beginning. Again, knowing your character well is the first thing that is required before you can really start understanding the mechanics well. Learning Hitomi is easier than Leifang. For Leifang, you have to learn defending, and that takes knowledge of the mechanics. And once you get a hold of this, her defense tools are so good that if you ever want to play another character, you'll get stomped since you don't know what to do with the lack of these defense tools. I'll let the thread starter do the talking here while using Leifang;

I don't fully understand holds or defense yet so I'm getting blown up.

See? You need to base your assessment on the experiences of players, not what you as an experienced player believes beginners should experience.

Back to characters who work well for beginners, Leifang doesn't have any exceptional hurdles for newcomers that would make her a bad choice.

Oh really... Let's see.

Leifang's basic options are in no way abnormal and there are no substantial execution barriers keeping people out

BBeginners don't understand the basic options initially. I can tell you right now that her weird fighting animations is a huge hurdle. And if they're behind weird animations like Leifang's, it takes additional adjustment and getting accustomed on the side of the player. She's not the weirdest, but, she's up there. I know I had a lot of trouble understanding the animations when I started with her. And a big part of her difficulty comes from her animations.

good string mix-ups

Uh...
Question 1: What are these good mix-ups you're talking about? The mix-ups that can all easily be sidestepped, crushed, interrupted or grabbed?
Question 2: Are these superior to Hitomi's?

respectable safety for those who get a bit too button-happy

Yeah... If you believe this, I can understand why you say she's a good beginner character. Her safety is not really that great. As mentioned before, mainly her easily crushed highs are safe, or her slow moves are safe. Leifang is not a character to be button happy with.
Question 3: Is Hitomi safer than Leifang? If no, go to question 4. If yes, go to question 6.
Question 4: Can a character's ability for mix-up (partially) compensate for the lack of safety? If yes, go to question 5. If no, well, you don't know the game.
Question 5: Is Hitomi's mix-up game superior to Leifang's? If yes, go to question 6. If no, well, you don't know the game.
Question 6: Why are we arguing?

She's a perfectly fine choice for beginners. Playing her even without reliance on the "complicated" gimmicks will still hold up as well as other newbie-friendly characters, and it would only go uphill from there. Nothing about her would give a newbie an abnormally difficult time in the same way Pai would.

Why did the thread started find her;

very difficult to use

Pai only becomes difficult at higher levels. For beginners, she's quite friendly. How a character looks to you is not how it looks to a beginner. You say Leifang is fine for beginners. Yet, we have a beginner saying she's hard, and Christie, which is not really the easiest due to being more unsafe;

Christie is another fun character, with a much more aggressive playstyle but lots of good range pokes.

Having been a member of DOAWorld for a long while, and playing a bunch of newcomers when Dimensions came out, I've spoken to a lot of newbies and their experiences. I can tell you one thing. Keeping a player interested is the first thing that is required for them to keep playing the game. If they experience a character as 'very difficult', you cannot tell them that their experience is wrong and that the character is fine to start out with. If the effort seems too high, the mountain too high to climb or whatever, they'll leave. I haven't met any beginner that says Leifang is attractive to use as a beginner.

 

[Brute]

Going back to Leifang.... Leifang is not a well-rounded character, despite her being an extremely powerful character. Her defense and evasion is through the roof, while her long range offense is weak. Someone starting out with this character can for example develop some defending/evasion habits that will hamper that person with any other character. In other words, if you use Leifang, your defense will be under-developed, especially at close range. You're much better off with Hitomi in this regard.

Long-range offense is not a primary determining factor in how eligible a character is for beginners to use. Yes, in the OP he stated that he usually plays characters with larger range on their "normals." I also stated that it's rather futile to try and suggest characters in DOA predicated on newcomer's self-proclaimed playstyle because their is no consistency in follow-through in that regard. Thus, my comments are directed at how accommodating a character is to pick up in general, not as it would pertain to this individual.

In regard to your argument that Leifang may incite "bad habits" that can't be applied to other characters, it seems like a difficult variable to exclude from a recommendation. For example, using your example of Hitomi, once could argue that her 9H could imprint bad defensive habits on players that can't be applied elsewhere. Moving from the theoretical into the practical, Hitomi has an abnormally high amount of string hits, delays and mixups that don't carry to the same effect among the roster at large, and are certainly tools that Hitomi players rely on to a near religious extent. I have seen players who learned the game with Hitomi behave stiffly on offense when switching to Ein, for example, as he does not posses these abilities in the same capacity Hitomi employs them. But I wouldn't say any of these factors make Hitomi a particularly difficult character for beginners.

Look. That newcomers don't understand this doesn't change the fact that Leifang is harder to use properly than say Hitomi at the beginning. Again, knowing your character well is the first thing that is required before you can really start understanding the mechanics well. Learning Hitomi is easier than Leifang. For Leifang, you have to learn defending, and that takes knowledge of the mechanics. And once you get a hold of this, her defense tools are so good that if you ever want to play another character, you'll get stomped since you don't know what to do with the lack of these defense tools. I'll let the thread starter do the talking here while using Leifang;


See? You need to base your assessment on the experiences of players, not what you as an experienced player believes beginners should experience.

At this point I think I've been through enough niceties to avoid damaging any exceptionally delicate sensibilities, but do be mindful that what I'm about to say is not directed at you specifically nor any other particular individual, and is rather a general note. Leifang is not as complicated as Leifang players make her out to be. The fact that she has so many options does not require that one master every nuance to perform competently, as breadth does not come at the expense of substance. Thus, the schema does not scale sharply when pulling back into mid-level or entry-level play. I have heard Leifang players claim that while she is very strong, this ability is offset by the difficulty required to use her and other shortcomings such as limited range and light stuns balance this potential with requisite dedication. The fact is that every character has some weakness if you're getting nit-picky. Leifang has far less than most characters, and the areas where she is abnormally proficient do not require some profound insight or talent to integrate in one's gameplay. And she is not so lacking in generic BnB tools that she spurs those weird mindsets you get with Nyo or other notably bizarre characters.

BBeginners don't understand the basic options initially. I can tell you right now that her weird fighting animations is a huge hurdle. And if they're behind weird animations like Leifang's, it takes additional adjustment and getting accustomed on the side of the player. She's not the weirdest, but, she's up there. I know I had a lot of trouble understanding the animations when I started with her. And a big part of her difficulty comes from her animations.

Her animations are not abnormally confusing.

Uh...
Question 1: What are these good mix-ups you're talking about? The mix-ups that can all easily be sidestepped, crushed, interrupted or grabbed?
Question 2: Are these superior to Hitomi's?

Yeah... If you believe this, I can understand why you say she's a good beginner character. Her safety is not really that great. As mentioned before, mainly her easily crushed highs are safe, or her slow moves are safe. Leifang is not a character to be button happy with.
Question 3: Is Hitomi safer than Leifang? If no, go to question 4. If yes, go to question 6.
Question 4: Can a character's ability for mix-up (partially) compensate for the lack of safety? If yes, go to question 5. If no, well, you don't know the game.
Question 5: Is Hitomi's mix-up game superior to Leifang's? If yes, go to question 6. If no, well, you don't know the game.
Question 6: Why are we arguing?

Question 7: Is there any character exempt from this thematic rebuttal?

Rhetorical questions aside, remember that I never claimed that Leifang is a better character for beginners than Hitomi. All I claimed was that Leifang is a perfectly acceptable character for newcomers. It looks to me like somehow you perceive this as some sort of competition between the two, which I do not understand. I never recommended Leifang for the OP either. Again, I stated that I feel such a suggestion would be futile.

How a character looks to you is not how it looks to a beginner. You say Leifang is fine for beginners. Yet, we have a beginner saying she's hard, and Christie, which is not really the easiest due to being more unsafe;

If a beginner told you they found Hitomi difficult to use, would you change your opinion? No, I don't suspect you would. Just as I shall not change mine in this case. An anecdote of one newcomer provides little sway over the context and experience I have acquired over many other anecdotes and abstract theory.

 

[Lulu]

Just for the Record I find Hitomi difficult to use. However this had nothing to do with overall experience. Its just that going from one of the Game's best Single Strike Characters to The Game's Resident String Queen is like Switching to an entirely new game.

Leifang on the other hand was pretty simple. But I wasn't a beginner when I finally got around to trying her.

In my oppinion the most beginner friendly character is Rachel. Although she definitely won't fit @Noontide at all..... but try her anyways. It won't take long to figure her out.

 

[NightAntilli]

@Brute, fair enough. I guess we'll have to leave the general discussion as it is. As for Leifang players making her out to be more complicated than she really is, well, what reason would there be for that? Are they making it up you think? Anything that is a further range than her 3K, involves a high risk when attacking.

@Lulu, From the characters that I play respectably, the ones that I find easy at both beginner and intermediate level are Kokoro, Momiji and Hitomi. Haven't played Rachel so I don't know.

 

[XxNoriakixX]

Hey i am new to the 5th entry and i must say.. that i started with leifang and i prefer her over evey other character so far ( but i am playing her since the first doa back in the day). I can't say that her animations are confusing.. just a bit weird for professional tai chi. I think characters like ayane are worse for beginner since she seems to rely much on her backturned stuff and escaping and being like soap via her in-build spinning movement. I prefer defensive characters too and i am bad at applying an offensive style no matter which game i am playing so i always end up with safe or long ranged characters or characters like leifang with good counters. So if op likes her he should spend some time with her instead of reading through discussions that lead to nothing.

 

[Noontide]

I've stuck with Hitomi since I made my post in this thread. Hit the 50 online matches point. She's good, I'm having fun and I like her, that's all I have to say. Maybe later and as I reach a higher level of play I'll branch out, but right now hanging at mid-range and punishing whiffs with 236P/236K and 46P is the shit.

Feel free to keep the discussion going though, it's actually really informative (no sarcasm, you guys do know your shit - brute I even took your counterpoints into account and I can see where you're coming from so don't worry) but I know who I'm having fun playing and it's going to be that way for a while. Hitomi is my homie.

Peace out and OSU!