GLoRToR
Active Member
Wait. Kasumi is shit tier?
Team NINJA does a 33-man Developer Tournament
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
I can certainly be negative about the game, but let me be clear when I say that it's because it was going in a very good direction as of E3, and I'm sad to see things change so much since then.
Aside from a few characters, the game is decent, just not as good as it could've been. Even those few characters (Helena), can hang... it's just that they have to rely heavily on the stun system, baiting counters, punishing with hi counter throws, etc. It's a play style that some people like and excel at, but when you compare that play style to Rig, who does nothing but keep you in a frame trap all day... it's certainly an uphill battle.
One of the things that people like and dislike about DOA is the fact that the universal counter and stun system is how the game is balanced. Even in Rikuto's Bayman/Akira example, it isn't that Bayman is better than Akira, it's Rikuto saying he only has to guess right one time with an advanced counter. To a DOA4 player, that's a great gamble, but to a VF player that's ridiculous.
Same situation, two completely different mentalities...
Aside from a few characters, the game is decent, just not as good as it could've been. Even those few characters (Helena), can hang... it's just that they have to rely heavily on the stun system, baiting counters, punishing with hi counter throws, etc. It's a play style that some people like and excel at, but when you compare that play style to Rig, who does nothing but keep you in a frame trap all day... it's certainly an uphill battle.
One of the things that people like and dislike about DOA is the fact that the universal counter and stun system is how the game is balanced. Even in Rikuto's Bayman/Akira example, it isn't that Bayman is better than Akira, it's Rikuto saying he only has to guess right one time with an advanced counter. To a DOA4 player, that's a great gamble, but to a VF player that's ridiculous.
Same situation, two completely different mentalities...
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Depends Aoi in VF5 seemed like a guess based bait character to me. Don't think it'll be something new for an Akira player.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
That was one match-up. Now the Akira player has to worry about it from the entire cast.
x Sypher x
Active Member
Optimism people...optimism. I understand that may be hard for some people, especially when it almost seems like we're getting a repeat from 7 years ago, but just remember, "We Are Fighters." TN decided to take our feedback, that was already a step in the right direction. Yes a random group of JP players decided to tamper with our shit, but if it weren't for some of the people here at FSD who rose up to support the game, and many others, then it probably wouldn't be as good as it is right now (Thank you Dr Dogg, Mr Wah, Rikuto, VirtuaPai, and anyone else i haven't mentioned). We still have time and opportunities to get it back on the right track. And if we can get more great tournament turnouts like we have recently, then we already have a fighting chance. Don't lose hope!
EDIT: In the end, I'm still gonna play the shit out of DOA5! Lol
EDIT: In the end, I'm still gonna play the shit out of DOA5! Lol
-Not necessarily. Considering Bayman, LeiFang and Busa are the only characters with Advanced holds that would make an Akira player think twice. Otherwise it would not be worth the effort of holding. Especially with the safer Side Stepping system.
Chaos
Well-Known Member
I agree, it may not have everything that competitive players wanted, but I can tell that the new mechanics will still be on DOA5 and will be much better than DOA4. When you think about it, we have a new game director Shimbori, Itagaki is no longer working with TN so I fath in the new TN. We will not get another repeat of DOA4 because Shimbori is not Itagki hes a completely different lead director who wants to please the fans to make one of the best fighting game ever as they specifically claimed.
I know its too early to judge when the game is not out yet but all these nerfs is scarying us to death and we don't want DOA5 to go into the same dark path where DOA4 went, we want DOA5 to be the best in the series if not, the greatest and thats whats going to happen!
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
No.
GLoRToR
Active Member
What I personally think any manner of PVP system needs is:
- Equal opportunity so that no game breaking shit makes fighting feel like pulling a tooth. A game should be fun not tedious to play. (Ahem MK9 Kabal's matchup chart)
Example: In MOBA it's pretty much up to you how well you farm your character during the match.
- A baseline of rules which applies to every character without exception. (Ahem MK9 where the only rule of mechanics is how you gain and spend meter, otherwise frame data is entirely casual and haphazard.)
Example: The equal frame punish idea in Tekken.
- The elimination of overcomplication so that pure strategy and understanding gives the sophistication of the system.
Example: It's cool to have CoolKidsShtick to certain games that you need to dig out for yourself to step up, but I think it's about time we catered to the casual player and not made him feel inferior just because he has other things to do as well.
- The elimination of the luck factor so it's entirely up to how prepared you came and how skilled you are.
Example: Chess. The rules are set, it's up to you how well you perform. Even if it's not the best example it's nearly 1am so bear with me >.>
bingsoo
Well-Known Member
I think of PVP and fighting games a little differently. To me, it's more like sports than chess. In sports, a team can have superstars (better tools), a mastermind coach (knowledge), and an advantage over a lesser opponent (matchups), but the lesser opponent still has a chance to win (luck/hell of a lot of preparation). I know where your coming from with MK9 and Kabal and Jade and all that matchup/high tier stuff, but I just think that it's not necessarily about equality and absolute fairness in fighting games. In terms of MK9, the most hypest matches I remember watching were Slips going far in tournie play with Scorpion (who was considered low tier at the time), and xSmokex who pushed Reo's Kabal to his limits. I believe it's this that makes a game fun and gives the community something to cheer for. In order for a fighting game to play like chess, it would have to be a shitload of mirror matches all the time.
Darrell
Well-Known Member
We should have made this board with Japanese characters, and all put Japan as our region.. Flree-stepu-dodguzoo!! Members. Doctor doguzu, grapufluito, Birtua Paito, Emper do Cow das ska!, and Rikuto! hahaa!! Cheer the f*** up people before I hit you guys with a buncha boobie gifs!
GLoRToR
Active Member
I guess chess WAS the worst example. I do not mean characters to be identical. I mean that... let's say a character has an i3 launcher and will hit you first unless you space them out, no matter what you do. That character should by no means deal 45% damage and able to reset you three times. Just no. It should have meager damage and lots of mobility and its game is to jump in at you and sting like a bee.
Similarly a character who has insanely high damage should find it hard to sell that damage but once they are in, kersplat you.
I'm talking about equity not equalness, in effect.
There are too many absolute gods in fighting games with no fucking weaknesses to speak of.
EDIT: To this effect there would be the following character types:
- The Brute (Bash-Yo Feis is a sumo wrestler. He can reset you 6 times for 90% damage but you can keep him out and the player needs to work real hard on footsies and spacing to get in and sell it.)
- The Backstabber (Snee'Kay is a ninja girl. She can teleport, and her i3 launcher sets you up for a steady 25% damage, but her blockstrings are lacking. Her recovery frames are also quick but her comeback potential is her greatest weakness.)
- The Zoner (Gunjay McShootcha is a cowboy. He's absolutely ass upclose but his keepout game with his pistols and landmines create the perfect zoning, and blast juggles make him an awesome character to play.)
- The Disabler (BelowThirtyTwo is an arctic explorer. He has a huge slate of ice he slides around on and if he tosses it at you, you freeze even if you block it. The only way to avoid it is to duck or jump over it. He has eight different directions from which the ice can come from and his resets are legendary. If he's caught in his recovery frames, he's toast. Meeeelting.)
- The Rushdowner (Trame Frap is a boxer lady with a fro. 'cept she's azn. Her below belt punches are legendary and she specializes in blockstrings. Once she's in, she's hard to keep out, but she has to work real hard to stay in because her damage is ass.)
And so on, I could make up more but you can see how I'd give each one of them glaring weaknesses.
bingsoo
Well-Known Member
The endless search and wait for a game with ideal balance and equity continues..
I hope that Team Ninja lets the game play itself out and continues to pay attention however many months after release to how the game can be better balanced. Please just don't waste all the free patches on useless shit like the other recent games that we all have heard about in the past year or so. That's all we can hope for atm.
So far, as the ignorant wishful person I am, I can only hope that this game will have one less Kabal and one less Sheeva/Kano. So far, there's speculation that we may already have 3 or 4 Sheevas though.
Mailifang
Well-Known Member
Now that I think about it old school Akira players are gonna have there hands full if they decide to main Akira in DOA5.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Honestly, right now I'm glad the game is being released when it is. I really wanted them to spend another couple of months on it because it would avoid conflicting with TTT2 and help sales, but knowing what I do about the type of changes they have made with every new build I fully believe that if they had spent another two months in development, we would be looking at a carbon copy of DOA 4 with even more tools stripped out. The only changes they have made in the last two months are, for the most part, nerfs.
There is nothing to suggest that pattern would have changed. Thank god they ran out of time.
There is nothing to suggest that pattern would have changed. Thank god they ran out of time.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
I really don't want to rely on some holy patch. I went through that with swtor and it was just nerf and nerf after nerf. Battlefield 3? Nerf this, nerf that, this gun killed me nerf that. The only patch I ever want to see is bug fixes because chances are if we get a patch it could only make things worse.
I get that I was being a broken record awhile back but I kind of saw this pattern coming while everyone else was chill. Nothing is set in stone till release date though but at this point whats done is done.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
The problem with game designers is that the vast, vast majority of them do not actually play games competitively. They get a college degree in something and the people teaching them did not play games competitively either.
The ones who did play competitively, typically did not do so well enough to actually understand why things work and don't work.
Game developers are the masters of a domain they will never understand. When you start throwing in additional obstacles such as language barrier and racial favoritism, you just make the situation even more impossible to deal with.
The ones who did play competitively, typically did not do so well enough to actually understand why things work and don't work.
Game developers are the masters of a domain they will never understand. When you start throwing in additional obstacles such as language barrier and racial favoritism, you just make the situation even more impossible to deal with.