3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold

[MrMoon360]

This is a debate I see going on prominently in Facebook comments on the Dead or Alive Game page.

Personally, I feel it should stay a 3-point hold system. Somehow it worked in DOA3.1 & 3.2, right?

It seems Shimbori is catering to a very difficult task; pleasing pros and newcomers alike.
I've witnessed a self-proclaimed rank SS from DOA4 speak out against 4-point holds in DOA5.

In my personal opinion, the 3-point hold system would be perfect if launchers and stuns were a greater threat. When saying that, I'm referring to most launchers universally being mid-punches or kicks.

Not sure if part of this hasn't been proposed, but what if during certain stuns, only expert holds were permitted? No?
Then let the stuns carry out if a counter is missed. (of course within the boundaries of the stun threshold.) I'm okay with players being rewarded for landing a stunning hit.
Also with this mechanic in place, players would be able to tech power blows more efficiently (if at all).
If it would win a bigger crowd in the competitive community, it would suffice in my book. Regardless of what is decided, (fanboy alert) I've grown fond of the series and I want to see DOA grow and shine.


Your thoughts? Bring 'em here. Shimbori-san may be watching.

 

[MASTER]

4 Point. 3 Point is still too abusable in the sense that all they have to do is wait for the animation of a mid attack and then hold accordingly, Thats what i do and trust me as you get better it becomes easier. 4Point stops that whole idea of just waiting for a mid attack since the hold is 0 frames. I have more reason but I will probably explain it in a video or just later on one of the DOA sites.

MASTER

 

[Jefffcore]

^ Yeah, what he said.

Unless there's a major change, 4 is just gonna be better. I'd still say 4 even if there was a major change though.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Im ok with both systems i just want holds to be harder to pull off. Like a smaller window to counter and not being able to counter when your being hit during a combo. Maybe the first 2 hits but after that you should be stunned.

 

[MrMoon360]

4 Point. 3 Point is still too abusable in the sense that all they have to do is wait for the animation of a mid attack and then hold accordingly, Thats what i do and trust me as you get better it becomes easier. 4Point stops that whole idea of just waiting for a mid attack since the hold is 0 frames. I have more reason but I will probably explain it in a video or just later on one of the DOA sites.

MASTER

Yeah. About that video.... HURRY UP MASTER.
lol

 

[MrMoon360]

MASTER

So tell me. Are you for or against the counter out of stun deal?

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

i was worried when i first played the demo ... but there seems to be alot more emphasis on high low variety as well ... i kinda like the way it flows now... the 3 point system grew on to me .. and it makes the advanced hold guess that much more rewarding ... i think this 3 point + advanced holds system is good... feels alot like 3.1 infact ..

 

[MrMoon360]

i was worried when i first played the demo ... but there seems to be alot more emphasis on high low variety as well ... i kinda like the way it flows now... the 3 point system grew on to me .. and it makes the advanced hold guess that much more rewarding ... i think this 3 point + advanced holds system is good... feels alot like 3.1 infact ..

I noticed the change in attack emphasis as well. Like Hayate's where the kick is now high instead of mid.
I'm not against 4-point; from time to time, I do find myself pressing forward hold for a mid kick. But I do also think 3-point could work.

 

[HokutoNoBen]

I'm of the opinion that it doesn't really matter. As long as the concern of "Holds Out of Critical Stun" hasn't been addressed in some meaningful way, would it really matter if it's 2 point or 6 point, for that matter?

 

[Raansu]

This is a debate I see going on prominently in Facebook comments on the Dead or Alive Game page.

Personally, I feel it should stay a 3-point hold system. Somehow it worked in DOA3.1 & 3.2, right?

It seems Shimbori is catering to a very difficult task; pleasing pros and newcomers alike.
I've witnessed a self-proclaimed rank SS from DOA4 speak out against 4-point holds in DOA5.

In my personal opinion, the 3-point hold system would be perfect if launchers and stuns were a greater threat. When saying that, I'm referring to most launchers universally being mid-punches or kicks.

Not sure if part of this hasn't been proposed, but what if during certain stuns, only expert holds were permitted? No?
Then let the stuns carry out if a counter is missed. (of course within the boundaries of the stun threshold.) I'm okay with players being rewarded for landing a stunning hit.
Also with this mechanic in place, players would be able to tech power blows more efficiently (if at all).
If it would win a bigger crowd in the competitive community, it would suffice in my book. Regardless of what is decided, (fanboy alert) I've grown fond of the series and I want to see DOA grow and shine.


Your thoughts? Bring 'em here. Shimbori-san may be watching.

3 point only works in 3.1 because the game allows you to work around the holds pretty damn well. Currently that isn't the case in doa5 as tools are pretty limited still.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

3 point only works in 3.1 because the game allows you to work around the holds pretty damn well. Currently that isn't the case in doa5 as tools are pretty limited still.

What do you mean by working around them, how? I never played 3.

 

[HokutoNoBen]

What do you mean by working around them, how? I never played 3.

3.1 actually had a few things that served as ways to get around the Rock-Paper-Scissors system. As Mr. Wah put it best:

...In DOA3 you had guard breaks and guard crushes that guaranteed follow-up attacks and made it so Attack could beat Guard. You had Catch Throws / Offensive Holds which were Throws that beat Attacks while also beating Holds. You had a wall crumple system in DOA3 that prevented someone from holding and getting a free hit for anyone - where some characters would opt for a free chance at a ground system. You had a mild side stepping system to attacks for avoidance of attacks while gaining positional space for strategical positioning (pushing an opponent near the guaranteed wall damage). You also have attacks that were "unholdable", as in when connecting with a HOLD, the holding opponent would just position switch instead of dealing default damage. You also had natural combos that put characters into certain stuns which would require a certain amount of frames to pass in order to be allowed to defensive hold out of the stun.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

3.1 actually had a few things that served as ways to get around the Rock-Paper-Scissors system. As Mr. Wah put it best:

Wow that sounds like a good system. Although the non holdable attacks seem a little over powered.

 

[FakeSypha]

4 point system.

A big chunk of the attacks are mids, so splitting them in punch and kick categories was the way to go. I find myself spamming more mid holds in Dimensions, and usually I get away with it, while it shouldn't be that way...

Not sure if 4-points will fix the overall "spamming" problems with the holds, but I liked it more how DOA4 did them rather than Dimensions or DOA2 did. Never played DOA3, sadly.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I personally don't care either way.

A 3-point system can work if and only if the metagame isn't on high/mid/low punch/kick, but instead about 'extend/launch/reset'. That's how DOA3 was played. You didn't concern yourself on whether it was going to be a mid punch or a mid kick, you would just hold when you felt they were going to launch you as most of the launchers were mid. This was before the threshold system so in DOA3 you weren't required to extend the stun, and characters could launch without requiring a stun in the first place. There was no guessing on 'hit level' or 'punch or kick', but on the function the attack would perform in the end run.

 

[MrMoon360]

3.1 actually had a few things that served as ways to get around the Rock-Paper-Scissors system. As Mr. Wah put it best:
Mr. Wah said:
...In DOA3 you had guard breaks and guard crushes that guaranteed follow-up attacks and made it so Attack could beat Guard. You had Catch Throws / Offensive Holds which were Throws that beat Attacks while also beating Holds. You had a wall crumple system in DOA3 that prevented someone from holding and getting a free hit for anyone - where some characters would opt for a free chance at a ground system. You had a mild side stepping system to attacks for avoidance of attacks while gaining positional space for strategical positioning (pushing an opponent near the guaranteed wall damage). You also have attacks that were "unholdable", as in when connecting with a HOLD, the holding opponent would just position switch instead of dealing default damage. You also had natural combos that put characters into certain stuns which would require a certain amount of frames to pass in order to be allowed to defensive hold out of the stun.

It would be nice to have more of this system once again to cope with the 3-point hold.

 

[Keylay]

It depends on what changes they make to the game (specifically the stun system). At the current state, I want a 4-point hold system. Generally, I feel like high and mid attacks work best against opponents in a stun so it's kind of like a 50/50 especially since low holds dodge high attacks.

 

[MASTER]

Im against not being able to hold out of stun. definitely not something im for. However just like someone mentioned there should be ways around it. right now it only seems like two out of the four characters have that option to stun them and force them to wait a long period of time before holding but unfortunately the moves dont happen to be the best in their arsenal. (Hayabusa's 214+P and Hitomi's 46k and her 9p,k 2in1 launcher) however the wall and dangerzones do make up a lot for it sometimes but explosive dangerzones are only allowed once per match and should stay that way but i figured i'd mention it anyway. I'll try to hurry up on the video since thats also part of the hold discussion i wanted to cover as well. >_<

MASTER

 

[DrDogg]

If holds are as prominent in DOA5 as they are in every other DOA, it won't matter how many different holds there are.

You're basically discussing how many different ways you can guess. The point should be to remove as much of the guessing as possible.

 

[Rikuto]

If holds are as prominent in DOA5 as they are in every other DOA, it won't matter how many different holds there are.

You're basically discussing how many different ways you can guess. The point should be to remove as much of the guessing as possible.

Pretty much this, although i'm still of a mind that if team ninja is dead set on forcing this holds-in-stun bullshit on us again it will be far better to limit the overall effectiveness of the hold. Reducing damage, active window, increasing recovery and increasing to either 4 or 6 point is a good way to do that.

If holds are going to be used in stun they need to be an absolute last-line-of-defense desperation thing that is not thrown out all willy-nilly like it is now. And it needs to be used to stop an advance, not get a big damaging return.

So, im not against 4 point in the sense that I prefer it over 3 point. I would however, prefer 6 point.

I'd also like to add that delaying how long it takes a person to be able to hold in a deeper stun does not help the attacker at all, but rather hurts them. Why? The same reason I parry mids like a beast out of heavy disadvantage in DOA 4.

Attacker deep stuns Defender. Defender cannot hold for 8 frames. Attacker uses 12 frame mid. Defender uses hold at 8th frame. Hold is not only successful, but because it caught the attack within 4 frames of initiation, Defender gets high-counter damage bonus.


See the problem? Yes, the attacker could further delay his attack to try and avoid this, but he is simply giving up stun duration and cutting things unnecessarily close. This doesn't change the guess he is making at all, its just making it more difficult to perform effectively. He would get the exact same benefit from a regular stun, making the deep stun actually harder to use correctly.

If anything, we need lots of special stuns in this game to "break" the hold system in different ways. Slower moves that cause stuns which could render 3 point useless, for example, and force a person to rely on advanced holds. And even slower moves that cause stuns which render all of them useless.

From there, you start to feel like you can actually create a legit combo from start to finish in this game by taking a riskier initial attack (though not like power blow risky), but you don't really upset the carebears who rely on the hold system because they can still hold out fast stuff like jabs... which makes sense, because those typically wouldn't be stunning in the first place in any other game, just giving advantage.

If they are going to keep the system in-place, they need to at least make concessions and give the attacker a legit option to break that defense.

And grapplers? Grapplers need to be able to absolutely rape a person trying to hold. They don't get to strike very often, and when they do, it needs to STICK.