Gone Loli hunting...
DOA5U Ayane Video Thread
- Thread starter iHajinShinobi
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A couple matches against a solid Hitomi player.
Feel free to critique!
Feel free to critique!
The number one thing you have to work on is your stagger escape. Hitomi's 1P and her low sweeps do not guarantee any strikes when you SE her, preferably at fastest SE. You were caught in a lot of mix ups because of it, and these are easily avoided by SE (look at the last round of the first match and see how long Hitomi kept you in threshold). On a slippery surface, that is another story because of slip stuns.
Speaking of slip stuns, when you land Ayane's low sweeps on counter hit (2H+K, 6K2K, 3PK etc), you land the strongest slip stun. And you are guaranteed a 4P+K launcher for about 96 damage if you do 4P+K > BT6P > 66KK4 > BT7K.
My next suggestion would be to learn Hitomi's string variation some more so you'll learn how to block her better. For example, Hitomi's 3K string, a string follow up in 3K is always a high punch or high kick. Her 3K string leads into one of a few things;
- 3KPP which is mid K, high P, mid P and the mid P can be charged
- 3KKK which is mid K, high K, high K and 3KK is a natural combo on neutral hit
- 3KP2KK/2K2K which is mid K, high P, low K, high K or low K (just like PP2KK and PP2K2K)
These are really the main problems you're having versus Hitomi.
Also a tip about 66P and side step P, when you hit confirm these on counter hit or in threshold, going back turned (66P4 or SS P4) will lead into a strong mix up. You have strikes that will deepen the stun threshold at all hit levels.
- PP/BTPP, PK/BTH+K, and BTP+KP1/BTP+KP3 for highs
- 6P3/6P3[4], BT4P+KP, 66P/66P4, 3P, BT6K, 3K, and 6K for mids
- BT2P and BT1P for lows, preferably BT2P
You also have immediate launchers as well if you choose the stun > launch route.
Speaking of slip stuns, when you land Ayane's low sweeps on counter hit (2H+K, 6K2K, 3PK etc), you land the strongest slip stun. And you are guaranteed a 4P+K launcher for about 96 damage if you do 4P+K > BT6P > 66KK4 > BT7K.
My next suggestion would be to learn Hitomi's string variation some more so you'll learn how to block her better. For example, Hitomi's 3K string, a string follow up in 3K is always a high punch or high kick. Her 3K string leads into one of a few things;
- 3KPP which is mid K, high P, mid P and the mid P can be charged
- 3KKK which is mid K, high K, high K and 3KK is a natural combo on neutral hit
- 3KP2KK/2K2K which is mid K, high P, low K, high K or low K (just like PP2KK and PP2K2K)
These are really the main problems you're having versus Hitomi.
Also a tip about 66P and side step P, when you hit confirm these on counter hit or in threshold, going back turned (66P4 or SS P4) will lead into a strong mix up. You have strikes that will deepen the stun threshold at all hit levels.
- PP/BTPP, PK/BTH+K, and BTP+KP1/BTP+KP3 for highs
- 6P3/6P3[4], BT4P+KP, 66P/66P4, 3P, BT6K, 3K, and 6K for mids
- BT2P and BT1P for lows, preferably BT2P
You also have immediate launchers as well if you choose the stun > launch route.
Thanks for the feedback Hajin. I noticed that Hitomi's 3K followups are both highs. It is possible to hold 3KP, but 3KK I think can only be ducked if the 1st hit connects. I think my issue was that I was getting too flustered from AW's mix-ups and need to learn how to react to the 2nd & 3rd hit of Hitomi's strings. I'm working on trying to snatch up her lows to avoid the frame advantage they'd otherwise provide her. He showed how dangerous Hitomi is in close.
Thanks for the tip on the slip stun follow-up. 4P+K sounds very nice! I also did notice that Gill Hustle likes to use SSP4~ then 4P+KP. Stun~Launch is a pretty good idea too.
Thanks for the tip on the slip stun follow-up. 4P+K sounds very nice! I also did notice that Gill Hustle likes to use SSP4~ then 4P+KP. Stun~Launch is a pretty good idea too.
Casual match with a buddy in 270 HP.
Some casual sets with Yoyo (GGs man). A few input errors & I know I missed some punishment but I was mainly trying to fight through a bit of latency & practice Ayane. Critique.
Edit: I was using PP variants & KK/PPKK a lot to tie it into play.
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Some casual sets with Yoyo (GGs man). A few input errors & I know I missed some punishment but I was mainly trying to fight through a bit of latency & practice Ayane. Critique.
Edit: I was using PP variants & KK/PPKK a lot to tie it into play.
Your Ayane's pretty solid from what I could see dude. I like your use of 4K's to either catch whiffs or intercept moves at a bit of range. I also noticed that you like to try to open up your opponent with pokes such as PP6K and then block. If the opponent blocks a lot feel free to Punch~Grab them (P~BT T or PP~Grab) or low poke with 2P or 1P~BT 8P. In fact I also noticed that you like to stand around and block a lot. With Ayane, particularly at mid or long range, feel free to move around and re-position your self while encouraging your opponent to try and attack you. Ayane's mobility is awesome and is great for zoning opponents.
While fighting Kokoro or LeiFang, feel free to take the fight to range and try to zone them. Particularly LeiFang. You seemed to kinda switch up between hanging around at range with your back to the opponent or staying in close and blocking/PP, KK strings. When at range with your back to the opponent, you can poke them with BT 4H+K, BT 6K BT 2K, or BT PP6KK4 for example (You can try to CH something with BT 6P if you feel ballsy) if they come close. If they don't come in, dance around mid-long range until they do.
Don't worry about the punishment because it's online and I know punishment is inconsistent (and in this case led to 46P shoulders *Shudders*). All I can really recommend is to maybe be a bit more proactive with movement and attacking/poking. You appeared quite passive. In essence, it should look like Ayane's constantly moving about. If you connect KK, followup with 4P+K instead of 4H+K. The reward is lovely. Also, when in doubt, 2P
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Your Ayane
Your Ayane's pretty solid from what I could see dude. I like your use of 4K's to either catch whiffs or intercept moves at a bit of range. I also noticed that you like to try to open up your opponent with pokes such as PP6K and then block. If the opponent blocks a lot feel free to Punch~Grab them (P~BT T or PP~Grab) or low poke with 2P or 1P~BT 8P. In fact I also noticed that you like to stand around and block a lot. With Ayane, particularly at mid or long range, feel free to move around and re-position your self while encouraging your opponent to try and attack you. Ayane's mobility is awesome and is great for zoning opponents.
While fighting Kokoro or LeiFang, feel free to take the fight to range and try to zone them. Particularly LeiFang. You seemed to kinda switch up between hanging around at range with your back to the opponent or staying in close and blocking/PP, KK strings. When at range with your back to the opponent, you can poke them with BT 4H+K, BT 6K BT 2K, or BT PP6KK4 for example (You can try to CH something with BT 6P if you feel ballsy) if they come close. If they don't come in, dance around mid-long range until they do.
Don't worry about the punishment because it's online and I know punishment is inconsistent (and in this case led to 46P shoulders *Shudders*). All I can really recommend is to maybe be a bit more proactive with movement and attacking/poking. You appeared quite passive. In essence, it should look like Ayane's constantly moving about. If you connect KK, followup with 4P+K instead of 4H+K. The reward is lovely. Also, when in doubt, 2P
BT 4H+K isn't really the best kind of poke to throw out on a whim. It's a good range poke, strong one, but misplacing it's range has you getting hit instead. So you don't want to toss it out on a whim. Same for BT2K. It's safer with P, BTPP, BT2P and BT6K to say the least. Even K and BTPK needs proper spacing.
BT 4H+K has good range so it's decent for CH hitting people from certain ranges. Though it is indeed vulnerable to whiff punishes itself. Haven't really had problems with BT 2K fortunately. BT 2P is a nice BT'ed poke. It would be nice if BT 6K's range was a little longer, but it being +1 on tip range block does make up for it. BT K and PK are pretty good pokes, and allow you to BT 8P since they leave you BT'ed.
I'm aware BT 4H+K has good range, my point was that you are being hit if it whiffs. It's best as keepout, not a poke. Same for 3H+K. BT2P is also +17 on counter hit and in threshold so it's very good, and fast at i13 with deceptive range
A couple online matches I had with a solid Brad a little while back.
Uploaded a few sets testing out certain things from my lab work;
Utilizing 64T mix ups a bit. 3P is very common among some Ayane players. However what I've noticed is that almost everyone else using it only uses a maximum of 4 options after the 3P. I have a total of 9 so far, to deal with stagger and non-stagger escaping players. Not to mention I have several other ways to keep "anyone" guessing after 64T/64H and they do not consist of 3P as start up. This throw and hold really is beautiful.
Forward flips were not accidental, they were intentional. I've been practicing timing forward flips at moments when someone is whiffing string enders, as they end them. This lets me use 3K/3KK or 4P as solid retaliation as a player is recovering. If they attack, they are counter hit, as you've seen twice. Both options hit mid and track, one will launch, the other hits mid and forces a must-hold situation.
BTPPPP is a full knockdown in threshold, and because of that, no one will use it or it's never going to be seen a lot. Tried on the first go and was a success for hard knockdown into okizeme. Which is what I wanted. Delicious and oh-so-tricky stuff. I love what I find in the lab.
Just wanted to try out a certain okizeme set up with BTPP4PP - BT2K. It's good and has it's benefits, but it's not any better than some other things I've been developing.
I wanted to implement maximizing the ranges of ranged counter pokes of certain strikes I'm using as keep out. Also a good opportunity try my BT launch - front turned PP6K2K knockdown set up and one part of my 64T mix up. Good stuff.
Also, take note that on a hit confirmed neutral K, PPK, BTPK and 3K (whiff) K, you're at +3 at range on neutral hit, and about +25 for threshold on counter hit. Either hit, you can do a roll cancel for the BTH+P throw or just cancel the roll and mix up if you want, for offense. It's very solid stuff.
Utilizing 64T mix ups a bit. 3P is very common among some Ayane players. However what I've noticed is that almost everyone else using it only uses a maximum of 4 options after the 3P. I have a total of 9 so far, to deal with stagger and non-stagger escaping players. Not to mention I have several other ways to keep "anyone" guessing after 64T/64H and they do not consist of 3P as start up. This throw and hold really is beautiful.
Forward flips were not accidental, they were intentional. I've been practicing timing forward flips at moments when someone is whiffing string enders, as they end them. This lets me use 3K/3KK or 4P as solid retaliation as a player is recovering. If they attack, they are counter hit, as you've seen twice. Both options hit mid and track, one will launch, the other hits mid and forces a must-hold situation.
BTPPPP is a full knockdown in threshold, and because of that, no one will use it or it's never going to be seen a lot. Tried on the first go and was a success for hard knockdown into okizeme. Which is what I wanted. Delicious and oh-so-tricky stuff. I love what I find in the lab.
Just wanted to try out a certain okizeme set up with BTPP4PP - BT2K. It's good and has it's benefits, but it's not any better than some other things I've been developing.
I wanted to implement maximizing the ranges of ranged counter pokes of certain strikes I'm using as keep out. Also a good opportunity try my BT launch - front turned PP6K2K knockdown set up and one part of my 64T mix up. Good stuff.
Also, take note that on a hit confirmed neutral K, PPK, BTPK and 3K (whiff) K, you're at +3 at range on neutral hit, and about +25 for threshold on counter hit. Either hit, you can do a roll cancel for the BTH+P throw or just cancel the roll and mix up if you want, for offense. It's very solid stuff.
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A couple sparring matches I had recently.
Vie du Soleil
Member
Hi Ayane mains and enthusiasts. My name is Vie Du Soleil. I've been lurking on FSD for a while but am now trying to branch out a bit and participate more in the community. In accordance with those goals I recently challenged Zeorebirth to a FT5. I would love a critique because to put it bluntly I got wrecked and I'm still trying to get a grasp on what went wrong. Thanks for any help and shout outs to Hajinshinobi: I'm a huge fan.
Cheers
Cheers
Hi Ayane mains and enthusiasts. My name is Vie Du Soleil. I've been lurking on FSD for a while but am now trying to branch out a bit and participate more in the community. In accordance with those goals I recently challenged Zeorebirth to a FT5. I would love a critique because to put it bluntly I got wrecked and I'm still trying to get a grasp on what went wrong. Thanks for any help and shout outs to Hajinshinobi: I'm a huge fan.
Cheers
Greetings Vie du Soleil, welcome to the Hajinmon Village! Overall what I noticed was that Zeo was essentially controlling the pace of the matches constantly and mercilessly. I'm guessing that he is more familiar with the Ayane MU than you are with the Ein MU. In terms of neutral poke speed, they're quite similar but Ayane gets an advantage thanks to her i12 2P that Ein has to respect in close. Anytime Ein is trying to pressure you in close, just 2P or P/PP him to attempt to halt his momentum. Ein himself too relies on his 2P to try and start his offense due to it being quite fast at i13 and +1 (effectively making his close range poke speed i9/i12/i12). Also be a bit careful when teching up after a knockdown if the opponent is continuously attacking since you'll be at disadvantage. Both Ein and Ayane are zoning characters, but Ein shouldn't be able to pressure Ayane so hard and regularly, especially considering that his toolset doesn't excel in it.
I also noticed that you tried to use a P~BT4H+K setup fairly regularly, such as after a 3KKK. In those situations it may be better to launch right away (or throw when they have shown that they will try to hold you), because adding the extra pokes when already that far in the threshold wasn't really contributing anything and he wasn't falling for the setups. Zeo was fully taking advantage of any stuns or whiff punishes he got on you and was maximizing damage much better. Going for a CB with Ayane regularly isn't necessary when she can get good damage off of almost any stun-launch.
I'm probably missing a bunch of stuff that HajinShinobi and @Tenryuga (Ein specialist) could elaborate on, but by and large your Ayane's not bad and it was mostly a case of being outplayed by a strong opponent (I'm also not sure how much latency likely played a factor too). Thanks for posting.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Against Ein just poke with a combination of your high strikes and 2P. This will completely shutdown his 3P which he relies on in CQC to get any type of solid reliable damage (his PKK while good must be committed to). By alternating high and low you force him to commit to either defense or trying to outpoke you with jabs which is still hard as hell because you are not just poking high but low as well.
When you get the life lead in this fight you have no obligation to ever approach him. Ein's get in is very poor and easily blown up. He has to be patient and look for openings to get in which is not easy at all on Ayane nor is it beneficial to the Ein player because as he is doing that the clock is ticking giving him less time to make a come back.
When Ein thinks he can be offensive simply SS him. He has no tracking whatsoever and must free cancel at predictable spots into throws or his 4P if he wants to track.
The most important advice I can give you is to be more patient than Ein. Ein as a character cannot accomplish much on his own. He relies on his opponent to make mistakes for him to capitalize on. If you do not give him those mistakes he will not win.
When you get the life lead in this fight you have no obligation to ever approach him. Ein's get in is very poor and easily blown up. He has to be patient and look for openings to get in which is not easy at all on Ayane nor is it beneficial to the Ein player because as he is doing that the clock is ticking giving him less time to make a come back.
When Ein thinks he can be offensive simply SS him. He has no tracking whatsoever and must free cancel at predictable spots into throws or his 4P if he wants to track.
The most important advice I can give you is to be more patient than Ein. Ein as a character cannot accomplish much on his own. He relies on his opponent to make mistakes for him to capitalize on. If you do not give him those mistakes he will not win.
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@Vie du Soleil during CQC neutral, especially after utilizing your 2P, do not use 3P or 3K unless your 2P connects as a counter hit. Counter hit 2P is +4 and pushes opponents away from you, so you can do 3P, 3K or even 66KK4 if you want. However when 2P connects on neutral hit, it is +0, so you want to stick with your fastest neutral strikes;
P - i10 frames
K - i12 frames, great against i12 frame mid characters and characters with punch parries, special punch holds and sabakis.
6P - i13 frames, can crush jabs at their initial frames
6K - i13 frames
2P - i12 frames
-- your crushes
4P - i15 frame high crush
8K - i14 frame high crush
1P - i15 frame high crush in Front Turn stance (i13 frames while in Back Turn stance).
2P - i12 frame high crush
2H+K - i22 frame high crush, slow but completely gets under highs.
--good use of side stepping (on reads), holds from good baits (on reads), and blocking. You can use the 7P flip to avoid the opponent's 2P as well but you have to a read on that.
Also, you really need to stop pressing buttons on wake up a lot. You were getting killed a lot of the time just from that alone. When you tech up, you are always at disadvantage, never at neutral. The same for when your WUKs (wake up kicks) are blocked, you are at frame disadvantage and offline you get rocked hard for trying to strike that way. So you want to be more careful about that as you tech up.
Like Force of Nature mentioned earlier, you don't need to opt for Critical Burst a lot in order to optimize your damage. I mean that's fine if it's your style, but that route restricts the character's mix up because most of her Critical Burst set ups are very obvious because everyone that does it, does the same thing. She has better ways to set that stuff up.
But her stun > launch and threshold launch/mix ups reward her more often than the average Critical Burst set up. You gain environmental positioning and offensive momentum.
Other than what Force, Tenryuga and I stated, you'll have to work on your throw punishment as well because that's important and also a momentum changer. Those are the only things I wanted to point out, aside from that, you're on a good path so keep playing and improving.
We can try to play later today or sometime soon if you want.
P - i10 frames
K - i12 frames, great against i12 frame mid characters and characters with punch parries, special punch holds and sabakis.
6P - i13 frames, can crush jabs at their initial frames
6K - i13 frames
2P - i12 frames
-- your crushes
4P - i15 frame high crush
8K - i14 frame high crush
1P - i15 frame high crush in Front Turn stance (i13 frames while in Back Turn stance).
2P - i12 frame high crush
2H+K - i22 frame high crush, slow but completely gets under highs.
--good use of side stepping (on reads), holds from good baits (on reads), and blocking. You can use the 7P flip to avoid the opponent's 2P as well but you have to a read on that.
Also, you really need to stop pressing buttons on wake up a lot. You were getting killed a lot of the time just from that alone. When you tech up, you are always at disadvantage, never at neutral. The same for when your WUKs (wake up kicks) are blocked, you are at frame disadvantage and offline you get rocked hard for trying to strike that way. So you want to be more careful about that as you tech up.
Like Force of Nature mentioned earlier, you don't need to opt for Critical Burst a lot in order to optimize your damage. I mean that's fine if it's your style, but that route restricts the character's mix up because most of her Critical Burst set ups are very obvious because everyone that does it, does the same thing. She has better ways to set that stuff up.
But her stun > launch and threshold launch/mix ups reward her more often than the average Critical Burst set up. You gain environmental positioning and offensive momentum.
Other than what Force, Tenryuga and I stated, you'll have to work on your throw punishment as well because that's important and also a momentum changer. Those are the only things I wanted to point out, aside from that, you're on a good path so keep playing and improving.
We can try to play later today or sometime soon if you want.
A couple casual matches I had recently. A little ninja-on-ninja action.