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System Common sense behind safety

AlexXsWx

AlexXsWx

Active Member
When framedata was introduced to me and I understood what is advantage and disadvantage, I thought I need to remember what moves are safe and what aren't. However this only helps for the character you know very well and is not of much use when you try to throw-punish your opponent. So I tried to figure out common sense behind the safety, and here are my observations:
  • High moves are safer than mid, mids are safer than lows.
  • Punches are safer than kicks.
  • Non-tracking moves are safer than tracking moves.
  • End of a string is safer than interrupting a string.
  • Slow moves are safer than fast moves.
So an ideal safe move would be slow non-tracking high punch that is in the end of a string.
For example, Helena's :236::P::K::P: has execution frames 19 (2) 18 and is -2 on guard.

And ideal unsafe move would be interrupting a string at a fast tracking low kick.
For example, Ayane's (With back to foe) :3::K::K: has execution frames 14 (3) 24 and is -12 on guard.

Of course, there are exceptions, but most moves seems to hold this idea. Let me know If you know moves that clearly stand out of this concept and don't have obvious reason why.
Other than that - what do you think about this? Have you noticed any other properties that contribute towards or against safety?

Update: by safety here I only mean frame advantage or frame disadvantage on guard that does not guarantee any punishment. E.g. things related to mind games or human reaction are out of my concern here.
 
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Lulu

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Yeah.... pretty much everybody knows this.... all though not everybody is this specific about it or are aware of it on a conscious level.

Most people operate by the Oldest most common trait of Advantage Time in many Fighting Games: If your move gets Blocked.... don't attack again..... If you move hurts the opponent... keep hitting buttons. :)
 
WAZAAAAA

WAZAAAAA

Well-Known Member
Code: 
236P
Ein	14(4)26	2.30 reach	45~72 damage	-9 on block
Hayate	14(4)26	2.30 reach	40~64 damage	-11 on block
huehue
 
THE_WORST_KOKORO

THE_WORST_KOKORO

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Lulu said:
Yeah.... pretty much everybody knows this.... all though not everybody is this specific about it or are aware of it on a conscious level.

Most people operate by the Oldest most common trait of Advantage Time in many Fighting Games: If your move gets Blocked.... don't attack again..... If you move hurts the opponent... keep hitting buttons. :)
Click to expand...
unless your doing just a singular move and it lands on normal hit with no stun, then you're negative.
 
Brute

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
But why would the ideal safe move be at the end of a string? Wouldn't it be better to also have string follow-ups in addition to being safe?
 
AlexXsWx

AlexXsWx

Active Member
Brute said:
What? Why?
Click to expand...
Many moves that have followup have a window of time to delay the followup. This window tends to increase move's recovery, what increases disadvantage.
Also, by ideal safe move I only mean ideal from safety point of view, ignoring all other pros/cons, like ability to mix it up better. I brought this example trying to explain what kind of moves tend to be safer, as I see it :)
 
Brute

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Right, but having a string follow-up does make a move safer, and the "delay window" you speak of is irrelevant due to free-canceling.
There is literally no reason that the ideal "safe move" would have no string follow-up.
 
AlexXsWx

AlexXsWx

Active Member
I'll bring a quick example now, and gather some more data later to mention it here.

Rig's :3::K: has execution frames 16 (3) 20, total of 39 frames, and followup interval 19~34, which is fairly big. In order to keep animations fluid the game can't allow to start followup on last frame of the recovery, as at that time it supposed to be near idle state which is likely different from beginning of followup animation and so will result snappy feeling. So increasing followup interval increases recovery, which makes the move less safe.

But I haven't had a close look on followup intervals yet, this theory comes from observation that safe moves are commonly found at the end of the strings and less commonly mid them.
Examples: Rig, Mai, Hitomi, Momiji, Honoka (the links might stop working after some time, in that case you can try to find fresh stuff here)

From another point of view, I also see this as risk-reward tradeoff. For attacker interrupting a string is low risk, as there is ability to continue it instead or mix followups. Ending a string is higher risk, as towards the end of the string it becomes more and more predictable for opponent. Reward here is safety.
 
Brute

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
AlexXsWx said:
I'll bring a quick example now, and gather some more data later to mention it here.

Rig's :3::K: has execution frames 16 (3) 20, total of 39 frames, and followup interval 19~34, which is fairly big. In order to keep animations fluid the game can't allow to start followup on last frame of the recovery, as at that time it supposed to be near idle state which is likely different from beginning of followup animation and so will result snappy feeling. So increasing followup interval increases recovery, which makes the move less safe.

But I haven't had a close look on followup intervals yet, this theory comes from observation that safe moves are commonly found at the end of the strings and less commonly mid them.
Examples: Rig, Mai, Hitomi, Momiji, Honoka (the links might stop working after some time, in that case you can try to find fresh stuff here)
Click to expand...
Blockstun negates this concern on guard, especially when you take jailing into consideration.

Even if whiffing, your example would be relevant in certain cases where the animations are elaborate. But the ideal safe move would not be overly demonstrative, and the follow-up window would have a rather simple animation that would not take long at all to go through it's follow-up frames leaving you free the moment they expire. This concept works no differently as it does for moves without string follow-ups, many of which require a fair amount of recovery frames to smoothly finish the visual animation.

AlexXsWx said:
From another point of view, I also see this as risk-reward tradeoff. For attacker interrupting a string is low risk, as there is ability to continue it instead or mix followups. Ending a string is higher risk, as towards the end of the string it becomes more and more predictable for opponent. Reward here is safety.
Click to expand...
You just explained why it's safer to have a follow-up.
 
AlexXsWx

AlexXsWx

Active Member
Alright, I've gathered followup interval info for Rig, and it seems that it only affects recovery when the interval is pretty long - ~12F+, like Rig's :3::K: (16 (3) 20, mid non-tracking kick, followup interval of 14F, -12 on guard) or Christie's :K: (13 (2) 25, high non-tracking kick, followup interval of 21F, -11 on guard)
 
Rikuto

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
WAZAAAAA said:
Code: 
236P
Ein    14(4)26    2.30 reach    45~72 damage    -9 on block
Hayate    14(4)26    2.30 reach    40~64 damage    -11 on block
huehue
Click to expand...


A part of me is greatly annoyed every time the data mentions reach, as it is completely misleading.
 
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