DOA5U Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate Arcade ver. 1.04 change log

Batcommander

Well-Known Member
dammit, i misread that. sorry. Thanks for responding @EMPEROR_COW , i thought you meant it would be going back to an OH plus the old frame advantage, then i re-read my original question.
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
It's still not clear. For Bass' BT Throw, Is it -

A: staying a throw per Ultimate now and keeping its current frame advantage (no change from current console version)?

Or

B: returning to an OH and retaining its advantage frames?

A is unacceptable as it was a silly nerf from doa5 1.03. It's one of his few good tools providing a near guaranteed combo if it lands; but very balanced as it's easily escaped with ducking or counter-throwing.
Tools like this should not be undermined.
It shows a trend of nervousness around guaranteed damage even when it's hard to, or not guaranteed in terms of its setup

Kokoro's stance combo is the same. Leave it in. Test strong things before softening. Players will show you if they can deal or not.

That brings is to the life settin and throws and holds being increased: it's a false equivalency and not good for the feel of the game.

It does affect game length - granted rounds aren't AS slow as DOA5 vanilla but still way too slow. The Japanese tournament top 32, in single elim, took 5 hours!

People I know who play other fighters took look and commented on the rounds taking so long.

But that is almost beside the point

The impact of strikes and small combos is greatly diminished and forces you to bait a throw, get lucky with a hold, or play out a much longer risk in extending stun.

Even then cb or extended stun combos tend to be equivalent to a counter or throw; not good.

Players can live with current settings but what is being missed by most is how much better the game can be when on the lower life setting - and even better still if holds and counters are also lowered across the board; right now the triangle system is out of whack because strikes are weak.

That's bad for strikers, because they have to risk big combos and this can't vary playstyle; it's bad for grapplers as they can't get far with strikes when the opponent attacks through throws for little risk (not much damage on the line) and can't create enough fear in the opponent to let them throw punish.
What's more with so much life, getting punished for holding is so minimal, whereas proper throw punishment in the lower life environment makes people really think about whether they want to counter.

It makes the counter bait mind games stronger, if less frequent among good players. So it makes the game more solid AND more Doa like at the same time!

TN should seriously consider this as it's far more balanced, exciting and competitive.
 
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o_YUE_o

Well-Known Member
Heichu P and 2P...
I don't have a good feeling about this.

66P+K: 4th hit damage effect changed, follow attacks can be Held.
Sweetness... Now can bait out holds for a Heichu or 214T command throw.
Kokoyin Sig smaller.png
 
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Saber

Well-Known Member
Stop justifying TN's changes, Cow.

There are so many nerfs here that are completely unnecessary, like Hitomi's 236K being -5 on block now. It's not justified, because she needed that tool to actually put out decent pressure. Besides 2P, her neutral game is shit. She needed 236K to be -1. Now that it's -5, she has to fuzzy guard, and that makes her vulnerable to low throws.

The only thing Kokoro got out of this besides a bunch of useless nerfs is that 44P can guarantee a bunch of damage if that truly is what the description imples. Nothing is fixed about her main problem - lack of a tracking mid/low.

Ein got buffed, but that does nothing to fix his main issues. Tina got buffed, nothing fixed. Kasumi's Oboro didn't need to go back to 17f. Rachel got nerfed for no reason. All she needed was increased recovery in her brainless FT kick, that was (somewhat) fixed, and they have to nerf her for reasons unknown.

And etc.

At the very least, these are not confirmed. If they happen to be, I'll be facepalming all day long.
 
Keep raging people. I've been playing ver.1.04 for 2 days straight and yes the changes are very minor for the most part, barely noticeable in fact.

Safety added for many moves is very much welcome. the damage buffs are welcome.

Nerfing something as retarded as hitomi's 236K ender is very much welcomed. For slower grapple characters this gives them a better fighting chance.

As for other nerfs .. you cant just get only buffs or the character would turn way too OP. With some buffs some nerfs had to happen.. and yes it makes sense.

As I said before, the Bass BT throw will remain intact as per Shimbori.

Reducing the string delay for alpha for the K strings makes perfect sense and makes it less threatening and forces the alpha player to commit more, especially since the string is a reterded high mid high mid. also the increase in the frames of her throw is also welcomed. that shit is 149 dmg on HCT... she shouldnt be able to land it so easily in the first place. especially since the mixup can even be between that and 3 different CBs

Everything Ein got was a fucking buff and now his overall DMG fit well with the rest. and yes that is noticable. Same for Jacky, nerfing his 6P frames was necessary as now with the damage buff it makes the 6P spamming slightly less, but its not like Jacky players stop at 6P anyway.

Christies changes dont changes her overall gameplan except for maybe the GB advantage loss, which is something not really intended in her design in the first place.

Also, saying the complaints about Kokoro are coming from a community that says that she is week because you can sidestep her.. You guys look down on the Japanese players and their opinions and always think they're wrong. Well Matt and I went there and let me tell you that Kokoro is NOT weak. In fact she can be stupidly strong at some points. the fact that everything she has gives her CB potential and every other option is almost just as rewarding is Something not to be taken lightly. but I guess me saying that will only stir up more rage ... If you don't like what I'm saying ask @Mr. Wah

Eliot's changes were a mixed bag. but 4K became far more useful because it can now be thrown out a bit more safely. and Thats great since its a sidestep killer. You guys, including my self in the past, say that Eliot is weak and garbage. I urge whoever can to come to Japan and fight Ley's Eliot to just try and beat him. Even the guy that won last weeks tourney (Katsuninken) says that he can't beat him. After making the combo video, I also realized how very stupidly strong Eliot can be and how much damage he can dish out from doing so little. which made me realize something: The game is still very young and players have not yet discovered the full potential of even their own characters. Also, despite all the talk and raging, a lot of you don't do frame data research and don;t optimize on the punish either. (I bet that comment is gonna make some people angry)

Oh and Lisa's wiffed 6P4P got fixed .. (you're all welcome by the way)

As I said, Keep complaining. They are reading.
But also, do your damn research.

The games damage reduction would eliminate a big part of what it is now. the buffed damage characters needed it in the CURRENT damage setting.
Whether you like what I say or not, fact still remains: I've tried it and will continue to try it today and I think its really good.

Also, the change log is NOT final and subject to change. It was merely released so that players can test things out at the arcade.

Have a nice day.
You sir Took the words(or most of them) right out of my mouth and blew my mind.

Even if this does become final it's best to wait and test it out for about a month or 2 and see how all these changes fit in first and see if there some new tech. I mean MASTER still uses Hayabusa and he still brings in that Hayabusa tech as well as Hajin Shinobi bringing that Ayane Tech. They might not like it but they still bring the tech. I hope I get no one upset as that is NOT my intention.

This is almost like saying a game sucks before anyone even plays it. Let's see with whatever does become final and let it sit for a bit before saying X will make Y less effective and unable to commit to Z.


NOTE: I'm not trying to act like I know everything as for I say this with great humility.
 
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Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
No, this isn't one of those times to wait and see. Right now they're actually taking feedback.

Feedback should be well thought out and based on good information as much as possible, of course, but it's not helping anyone to just wait.
 

Chaos

Well-Known Member
TN should fix the buffer system because I notice you can accidentally do 214P/K and 236P/K by simply pressing 24P/K and 26P/K which causes big problems.
 

werewolfgold

Well-Known Member
I feel like it's highly unlikely that TN threw darts at a character's move list while blindfolded and just said "WE HAVE TO CHANGE SOMETHING ABOUT THIS MOVE, NOW!" There was something behind it. Are we really aware of the nitpicks that JP players have been having? (I'm sure as hell not.) Are they having the same issues that people here are having? Were these changes all about internal findings or was there some kind of external feedback that caused things to change? (Whether it was good feedback..., I dunno.)

I'm sure it's a mix of everything and know one is going to know the answer 100%. But, I'm not sure everything is just "TN is making pointless changes."
 

TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
That's the issue here. One of the most important members of the community is gonna applaud TN no matter what they do. Even if they randomly decide to make every strike deal 1 damage and raise the bar to 900, Cow will say it's perfectly balanced. At the same time, the important members of the community who could actually have gotten our words to TN are mostly gone with the exception of Matt and Erik.

Cow, how does nerfing 236K for Hitomi make perfect sense¿ She now has literally no good enders for those strings and everyone will punish her ass. The only solution she has now is.... wait for it... cancel and wait for a hold animation to 33T. That's the DOA4 gameplay we love (read: hate) so much. Hitomi is a fast, rush-down character. She needs safety in several of her moves to be able to keep the pressure. If you don't like 236K being -1, you can crouch it, you can step it, you can hold it or you can block it and use the -1 in your favor knowing that she will most likely use a mid-punch or jab after it. It's that simple. Nerfing the move was not the correct decision.

You keep saying TN reads this place and takes feedback but I'm yet to see a single patch where they do what's actually being asked. The Tina sub-forum is full of solid posts stating what her problems are. PKK no longer guarantees a ground slam, 8P no longer guarantees a launch, 66K no longer sit-down stuns crouching opponents 4P+K no longer gives her a free ground throw, 6H+K is now unsafe and doesn't guard break. And what did we get to compensate¿ a third air throw she honestly didn't need. And was Tina good in vanilla¿ No, she wasn't. But she was very solid and could take on anyone. Now it's mostly back to DOA4 Tina.

There's also another issue I'd like to bring out with Shimbori. But first I must be very clear that I actually admire and appreciate his work and would honestly love to meet him like many other here. But something he did a short while back pissed me off a little. Don't take this as "Mike hates Shimbori and talks shit about DOA in FSD". I managed to contact him over Twitter to try and tell him those Tina problems and he insisted that I was only allowed to say ONE of those. So I went with PKK not guaranteeing the ground slam. But seriously, why should I only be allowed to say one of the issues my character has if she has a ton¿ It's unfair and the fact that none of those was addressed in 1.04 makes it clear that they're either not listening or don't care much about what's being said here.

And let's also be clear on something. Marie Rose will come out and if she ends up having a solid tool, you can kiss it good bye. Because TN seems to want everyone to rely on playing the god damned stun game. Mark my words.

It's pretty shitty because I love the game with a passion. But every time the gameplay is patched I feel like we end up getting a worsened version of the game. DOA5 was supposed to be about sit-down stuns, CB being important, frame advantage and safety on block, stage interaction using danger zones, etc, etc but so far those are not very important. I'm extremely worried about what's gonna happen to the game.
 

tokiopewpew

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
If Hitomi is considered to be a rush-down character, she still will be save enough after the patch compared to other rush-down characters. For example, Kasumi also needs to keep up the pressure and she is fast, but her moves are highly unsafe on block, more like Hitomi's are.

Just my two cents.
 

UncleKitchener

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
No, this isn't one of those times to wait and see. Right now they're actually taking feedback.

Feedback should be well thought out and based on good information as much as possible, of course, but it's not helping anyone to just wait.

Just spam their twitter. If I see a tweet I agree with, I'm willing to retweet and spread.

I don't know if that's the only way to propagate healthy discussion and feedback for TN, but I'm taking that route.
 

whamwham

Member
Each iteration of "patches" and update (a.k.a 5U) is just breaking the game more and more. It's great that we're getting these patches especially when they don't give a flying fuck about the changes we ask for anyway except for changes that no one can comprehend (300 life, FT removal, reduction of strike damage, increase of holds, awesome nerfs, etc) and never asked for is getting changed.

I love the back peddling to DOA4 again. Guaranteed damage? Da fuck iz dat?

Seriously...I love the game, but it's hard to take it seriously on a competitive side with all the changes being made.
 

FakeSypha

Well-Known Member
Cow, how does nerfing 236K for Hitomi make perfect sense¿ She now has literally no good enders for those strings and everyone will punish her ass. The only solution she has now is.... wait for it... cancel and wait for a hold animation to 33T. That's the DOA4 gameplay we love (read: hate) so much. Hitomi is a fast, rush-down character. She needs safety in several of her moves to be able to keep the pressure. If you don't like 236K being -1, you can crouch it, you can step it, you can hold it or you can block it and use the -1 in your favor knowing that she will most likely use a mid-punch or jab after it. It's that simple. Nerfing the move was not the correct decision.

She already played DOA4 for the most part on on vanilla DOA5, and still plays it on 5U, lol. Even with her new sit-down stun. But yes, you summed up why nerfing that move doesn't make sense. While I play her as a sub, and very casually, I feel like Hitomi has to rely A LOT in delaying her super unsafe strings (but with decent mix up) to get something. Now at -5, she will be forced to backup and restet to neutral. Her fastest mid or jab will lose to pretty much everything.
 

jjinkou2

Well-Known Member
That's the issue here. One of the most important members of the community is gonna applaud TN no matter what they do. Even if they randomly decide to make every strike deal 1 damage and raise the bar to 900, Cow will say it's perfectly balanced. At the same time, the important members of the community who could actually have gotten our words to TN are mostly gone with the exception of Matt and Erik.

and

You keep saying TN reads this place and takes feedback but I'm yet to see a single patch where they do what's actually being asked. The Tina sub-forum is full of solid posts stating what her problems are.

Maybe the issue is that we expect from TN a work that this community should have done. TN can't read all threads, collect each propositions of corrections and summarized them in a patch.

Maybe it is time for someone competent to collect per character the corrections, validate them with this community, and officially present them to TN in the name of this community.

"Ask and you may receive,
don't ask, don't whine. "
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Standard Donor
It does affect game length - granted rounds aren't AS slow as DOA5 vanilla but still way too slow. The Japanese tournament top 32, in single elim, took 5 hours!

Correction & Notes:

It was 4 hours.

And not one match was a time over. Most were finishing in under 50 seconds per round.

They were recording every single match with a small break in-between.

By comparison, it takes me 2 hours to run two 16 player pools where I'm not actively judging/recording each and every match with typically running 4-8 matches at the same time.

If you're timing out at 99 second rounds there's something seriously wrong with you.
 
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