Dealing with Wakeup/Get-up kicks

[Trickster]

Yeah, I'm pretty new to this game, so if I talk crap just call me out on it. Sorry if this is longwinded.

It dawned on me that once I've scored a hard knockdown (usually when I'm cornered), I have to respect the 50/50 wakeup kick my opponent has at their disposal, which pretty much means that I had to stop my offense.
It's been kinda bugging me, because the game I'm coming from generally encourages offense when you score a knockdown. Being grounded doesn't mean you can take a breather.

Before making this, I took a look at some old threads and hit the lab to learn to backdash cancel and get used to holding them. Pretty useful, but these all involve defense. My main concern is being able to remain the agressor.

But basically, my main question is
-In Doa, is it a general thing to have to respect the oponents 50/50 on wake-up no matter what
-If not, what are some surefire ways to maintain an offense once you score a knockdown

 

[KasumiLover]

If you want to maintain dominance, the best thing to do is just block the wake-up kick, and throw punish it. Trust me, this helps in shutting down the opponent and retaining that dominance. Another way is to do a move that'll "crush" your opponent's wake up kick, for example doing Kasumi's move will crush the WU kick, and knock them down again. Force techs are also a good way to to prevent your opponent from getting on top, but you have to be quick, because FTs won't work if you're opponent is already doing the WU kick animation.
If all else fails, why not hold it? You have a 50% chance of holding correctly since you can only do a low or mid WU kick. I hope this helps you

 

[Trickster]

Cheers for the reply :]
I took your advice to the lab. I had no problem punishing the low ones, but the mid ones just seemed to have too much pushback. Am I right to say that you can't punish mid wake-up kicks?

Force techs are actually more what I was looking for, cheers for the mention. I worked out some force tech moves and put them to use. Seems as if they're only good for opponents that just like to lie and wait though cuz of the invincibility frames on wake-up.

This might be a little broad, but are there any situations in the game that guarantee a force tech? I remebmer playing a Gen Fu player who would land like a combo on me and always managed to score a force tech afterwards. Maybe I was waking up wrong, idk.

Thanks again for the help

 

[Pictured Mind]

@Kasumilover98 explained things pretty well already, but anyways;

Am I right to say that you can't punish mid wake-up kicks?

That's right, you can't throw punish a mid wake up kick. For a low wake up kick blocked you can use 2T to punish.

I don't know what character you play, but I'm gonna list some things you can do to maintain offense/pressure.

Force techs: Some characters have a lot better force techs than others, but it's a viable strategy for every character. You should check out the force techs of your character and learn their timing. Some moves are of course slower than others.
Crushes: Not every character has a move that can jump over low wake ups (rachel for example) but some of them do. Helena's 9K can, depending on your timing either jump over a low or jump over a low and hit the enemy for a counter hit.
Also something specific to Helena is that she can duck under mid wake ups, which gives her advantage.

This might be a little broad, but are there any situations in the game that guarantee a force tech? I remebmer playing a Gen Fu player who would land like a combo on me and always managed to score a force tech afterwards. Maybe I was waking up wrong, idk.

I'm not sure on Gen Fu, but there are indeed set ups that guarantee a force tech.

So actually you have a lot of choices when your enemy is on the floor, while your enemy only has three (mid wake up, low wake up and tech). You have the advantage.

 

[KasumiLover]

Cheers for the reply :]
I took your advice to the lab. I had no problem punishing the low ones, but the mid ones just seemed to have too much pushback. Am I right to say that you can't punish mid wake-up kicks?

Force techs are actually more what I was looking for, cheers for the mention. I worked out some force tech moves and put them to use. Seems as if they're only good for opponents that just like to lie and wait though cuz of the invincibility frames on wake-up.

This might be a little broad, but are there any situations in the game that guarantee a force tech? I remebmer playing a Gen Fu player who would land like a combo on me and always managed to score a force tech afterwards. Maybe I was waking up wrong, idk.

Thanks again for the help

Mid kicks can be punished, but they're shall I say...tricky to do. You have to be right on point when punishing Mid kicks, but be cautious because if you're hit in your attack animation while a WU kick is being performed, it'll be treated as a counter hit, and it will often push you back, stun you, or even knock you down depending on the move...I had to learn this the hard way.

And guaranteed force techs? Well, you could say that: FTs are not really, but if you hit the opponent quickly when they're vulnerable or not attempting to quickly get up, then they could be considered guaranteed. Gen fu is understandable, because he has a lot of moves that can do a knockdown and he'll be able to quickly FT or hit you in this state. And you're welcome, I like helping others! @Pictured Mind is also right, certain characters have moves that can take advantage of a grounded opponent, such as Rachel, and Tina and Bass who have throws that can quickly punish opponents who choose to simply lay there and not try to get up.

 

[KING JAIMY]

Whiff punishing wake-up kicks is also an option. Learn the range of your moves and punish the wake-up kick in its recovery frames. You can Korean Back Dash for example and then punish your opponents' wake-up kick with your own move. Some examples of moves which can punish wake-up kicks:

Momiji: 44K
Jann Lee: 66K
Kasumi: Running T
Raidou: 236P
Ein/Hitomi: 46P
Rig: 66P
.....
etc.

It might not get you the + frames you need for offensive pressure, but it is a way of dealing with wake-up kicks.

Cheers for the reply :]
This might be a little broad, but are there any situations in the game that guarantee a force tech? I remebmer playing a Gen Fu player who would land like a combo on me and always managed to score a force tech afterwards. Maybe I was waking up wrong, idk.

Yes. Some characters (but not all) have access to untechable moves which guarantee a force tech.

So actually you have a lot of choices when your enemy is on the floor, while your enemy only has three (mid wake up, low wake up and tech). You have the advantage.

Your opponent also has a rising option 4HHHHHHHH, but that one is rarely used. Usually it's one of the three you mentioned.

 

[KasumiLover]

@Trickster By the way If you don't mind my asking, which character do you mainly use? (ignore the smile, it wouldn't go away when I tried to delete it...)

 

[Trickster]

Force techs: Some characters have a lot better force techs than others, but it's a viable strategy for every character. You should check out the force techs of your character and learn their timing. Some moves are of course slower than others.
Crushes: Not every character has a move that can jump over low wake ups (rachel for example) but some of them do. Helena's 9K can, depending on your timing either jump over a low or jump over a low and hit the enemy for a counter hit.

I've to thank you, because crushing has been crazy useful as of late. I've often found myself entirely avoiding the wake-up kick fiasco using Momiji's Tenku and then scoring some back turned damage or landing a sit-down stun with b+2. Good stuff, thanks.

Mid kicks can be punished, but they're shall I say...tricky to do.

Are you refering to throw punishing here? Because @Pictured Mind let me know that you can't throw punish them.
I imagine it would be possible perhaps if your opponent were cornered, but I'll happily take the frame advantage than risk wiffing the throw.

Your opponent also has a rising option 4HHHHHHHH, but that one is rarely used.

Is this just the equivilalent of standing up from the ground without having done a wake up kick? I'm guessing that mashing works the same way a stagger-escape, reducing the time it takes to get back on your feet.

@Kasumilover98 To answer your question, It's Momiji. I play her most since I started properly trying to learn this game. Technically I've played more matches with Rig and Tengu. I Don't play Tengu as much now cuz I felt she was a little slow. And I entirely dropped Rig cuz it felt like he was too complex for a player my level. If it's relevant, I'm grinding some hours into Hitmoi now, too as I've read she a simple character to play and learn the game with.

Shame tho. I do love my TKD fighters


Thanks for the help, guys. I really appreciate it.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

Is this just the equivilalent of standing up from the ground without having done a wake up kick? I'm guessing that mashing works the same way a stagger-escape, reducing the time it takes to get back on your feet.

No, you can move while waking up (not talking about tech rolls) in 5 different directions: up, down, forward, backward, neutral. Waking up backward is called defensive wake up because it's the only direction which is immune to ground attacks. And yeah you can't wakeup kick from that direction.
Mashing HHHHHH just makes the execution easier.

 

[KasumiLover]

I've to thank you, because crushing has been crazy useful as of late. I've often found myself entirely avoiding the wake-up kick fiasco using Momiji's Tenku and then scoring some back turned damage or landing a sit-down stun with b+2. Good stuff, thanks.


Are you refering to throw punishing here? Because @Pictured Mind let me know that you can't throw punish them.
I imagine it would be possible perhaps if your opponent were cornered, but I'll happily take the frame advantage than risk wiffing the throw.


Is this just the equivilalent of standing up from the ground without having done a wake up kick? I'm guessing that mashing works the same way a stagger-escape, reducing the time it takes to get back on your feet.

@Kasumilover98 To answer your question, It's Momiji. I play her most since I started properly trying to learn this game. Technically I've played more matches with Rig and Tengu. I Don't play Tengu as much now cuz I felt she was a little slow. And I entirely dropped Rig cuz it felt like he was too complex for a player my level. If it's relevant, I'm grinding some hours into Hitmoi now, too as I've read she a simple character to play and learn the game with.

Shame tho. I do love my TKD fighters


Thanks for the help, guys. I really appreciate it.

Oh, what I meant was that Mid WU kicks can't be throw punished, but you can still crush them with certain attacks. My bad.

 

[Pictured Mind]

@Pictured Mind is also right, certain characters have moves that can take advantage of a grounded opponent, such as Rachel, and Tina and Bass who have throws that can quickly punish opponents who choose to simply lay there and not try to get up.

I was talking more along the lines of actual guaranteed force techs. I know rachel has them. I believe Bass also has a guaranteed ground throw set up which gives him advantage.

Your opponent also has a rising option 4HHHHHHHH, but that one is rarely used. Usually it's one of the three you mentioned.

I put that in the same category as the "tech" I mentioned. Because the general idea is the same.

Are you refering to throw punishing here? Because @Pictured Mind let me know that you can't throw punish them.

I think he was talking about punishing in general. Say, if an opponent does a mid wake up kick and I duck under it with Helena and start my offense I've technically "punished" his wake up kick attempt.

 

[KING JAIMY]

Is this just the equivilalent of standing up from the ground without having done a wake up kick? I'm guessing that mashing works the same way a stagger-escape, reducing the time it takes to get back on your feet.

Yes.

@Kasumilover98 To answer your question, It's Momiji. I play her most since I started properly trying to learn this game. Technically I've played more matches with Rig and Tengu. I Don't play Tengu as much now cuz I felt she was a little slow. And I entirely dropped Rig cuz it felt like he was too complex for a player my level. If it's relevant, I'm grinding some hours into Hitmoi now, too as I've read she a simple character to play and learn the game with.

Shame tho. I do love my TKD fighters

What a coincidence. My mains appear to be Momiji and Rig as well.

I put that in the same category as the "tech" I mentioned. Because the general idea is the same.

Not trying to be a smartass, but a tech is instantly getting up once you touch the ground. A rising option is different in the sense that you don't instantly get up. It leaves you vulnerable to ground strikes, whereas a tech prevents every way of getting hit by a ground attack.

 

[UncleKitchener]

You should also consider moves that can trade with WUKs. I don't know what character you use, so I can't help you there.

Are you refering to throw punishing here? Because @Pictured Mind let me know that you can't throw punish them.

You can throw punish low WUKs with a low throw, but mid WUKs deal enough push back to make the safe.

 

[KasumiLover]

Also be wary that not all of online players will use WU kicks, especially some higher level players. Some will simply get up and resume defense, and will wait for an opening to attack. I tend to back up when I knock down the opponent and wait for a whiff so I can punish them in case they do attack with a WU, like @KING JAIMY said.

 

[KING JAIMY]

Also be wary that not all of online players will use WU kicks, especially some higher level players. Some will simply get up and resume defense, and will wait for an opening to attack. I tend to back up when I knock down the opponent and wait for a whiff so I can punish them in case they do attack with a WU, like @KING JAIMY said.

In that case you should learn to punish tech rolls with unholdables, but that's another topic.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Maybe I missed it @Trickster , but you never gave us your current main. It could help out in describing options specific to that character.

Like for example, as Bass, if I end a juggle with and perform I can get an Option Select ground throw to happen. If the opponent doesn't tech then my ground throw will connect, and if they do tech then I perform my low throw animation (whiffing) and will recover 6 frames ahead of my opponent (+6). This is pretty much applicable to any ground throwing character, only major difference with Bass is that his ground throw causes the WUK game to be nullified as his ground throw picks up the player and resets to neutral but he is at +13.

Another example is if I knock an opponent into a wall with or then juggle with and follow it up with two consecutive I will whiff the first as a low throw, then the second will either connect and be at +13 or +9, or will whiff as a second low throw if the opponent teched and I'll be at +2.

Either situation helps with the mind games, as if the opponent catches on and tries to hold my followup strike attacks, the put me in crouching making it possible to do Bass' instantly as a punisher.

 

[Trickster]

@Mr. Wah I only just today figured out how to change your main character on your profile think. I kinda dropped the ball there
But I primarily play Momiji. Something on Hitomi and Tengu would also be hugely appreciated too though, guys.

But yeah, that Bass option select sounds awfully strong. It's actually more along the lines of what I was hoping to find, but I don't play Bass, unfortunately. Am I right to say that in that case, your opponent has no choice but to techroll? Seeing as WU kicks or staying downed would cause you to be at -13.

I know a similar setup with Nyotengu, if you do a ground throw after her during her fly stance in a juggle, it will catch your opponent unless they tech. It's not really Bayman-tier, cuz if they tech, she's at -5, but it's a start, I suppose.

You should also consider moves that can trade with WUKs. I don't know what character you use, so I can't help you there.

Gives me an idea. Offensive like Tengu's take priorty over strikes. Does this mean that she can go through wake-up kicks with it? I would test this myself, but I'm not at home atm.

Thanks again for the replies, guise.

 

[Matt Ponton]

sadly OH dont work on WUKs. but her flying body check or her 7K are good attacks to counter WUKs. Also, im not 100% sure on her setups but she has situations where she can 9P over the character, if the opponent is like mashing K theyll WUK the wrong way leaving you to be able to punish with a full guaranteed critical combo and juggle. 66k 66p 66k h+k.

YouTube

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DOA5LR Pai/Nyotengu Compilation (Codemaster92163)

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

What about those "Jump/Jumping" OHs? Lisa, Kasumi trio? Or in Alpha's case - since I'm referencing her - her CGs? and ? I do see (Evade Lows when the data window is open.)

 

[Matt Ponton]

What about those "Jump/Jumping" OHs? Lisa, Kasumi trio? Or in Alpha's case - since I'm referencing her - her CGs? and ? I do see (Evade Lows when the data window is open.)

Yes, evasion is a valid option, but you have to time it right.
What I meant was Offensive Holds won't hold a wake-up kick.