DOA5 after 6 months - what worked and what didn't?

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SilverKhaos

Active Member
I'm not complaining of being rushed down. My complaint is how easy it is to mash out of situations you couldn't before because a key game play staple(Counter holds) of the DOA series has been severely limited(damage and timing) in its effectiveness. So now the game play has shifted to more offense pressure based play

Learning how to play is a repeated argument everyone says when people complain about anything concerning fighting games. Everyone has their reasons for enjoying or not enjoying the game.This is a thread discussing what we like or dislike with DOA 5 after 6 months of its release. And that's what we are doing.

The worst part is, those of us who actually do use mindgames predicted this would happen when they revealed the nerfed damage of counters.

But yeah, DOA5 is just too rushdown mashy. That's not what I go to DOA for. When I turn to DOA, its because i'm looking for strategic fights, mindgames, and player skill to be the deciding factor (what I mean by that last one is the ability to outplay/outmaneuver the opponent). Now though? All three of those are very very minor factors in DOA5.
 

Ghosty-J

Well-Known Member
Still not sure how there's a lack of mindgames in DoA5. I play mindgames and GET mindgamed practically all the time. Baiting for counters and the dreaded turtling being the biggest offenders. Perhaps the definition of mindgame varies between players, but what do I know? <.<
 

SaihateDYNAMO

Well-Known Member
To me, DOA5 feels like a combo contest. "Who can string the longest combo first?" It doesn't feel the same to me because it seems like you have to always use complicated combos to win, especially online (Jann Lee is the worst to fight against, I swear). It's just not me.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
If you are getting rushed down in DoA5, you are just bad, simple as that. And this is coming from someone who played DoA4 aggressively and did it quite well in a game that was completely random and everything was negative on block. The defender in DoA5 has twice as many options as the attacker, there is no excuse for you to be getting rushed down outside of you just simply being outplayed.

DoA3.1 pretty much everyone had some form of frame advantage. Despite the 3 point hold, that game favored offensive gameplay way more than DoA5 does. DoA5 for the most part is a defensive game. It's just a simple fact Degalon and Mailifang that neither of you know how to play. Especially you Degalon who I have played against. You throw out slow attacks in neutral, you attack when you are at a disadvantage, you never fully utilize Mila's tools. You play her incorrectly. You have no idea how to play this game, and because you refuse to learn and take advice given to you, you continue to make ignorant statements. How can you expect anyone to listen to you when you are not even willing to learn how to play on top of calling things cheap when you get the chance.

DoA5 has its problems, but being a rushdown/mashy game is certainly not one of its issues given how the majority of the cast is negative on block when they attack.
 

Mailifang

Well-Known Member
If you are getting rushed down in DoA5, you are just bad, simple as that. And this is coming from someone who played DoA4 aggressively and did it quite well in a game that was completely random and everything was negative on block. The defender in DoA5 has twice as many options as the attacker, there is no excuse for you to be getting rushed down outside of you just simply being outplayed.

DoA3.1 pretty much everyone had some form of frame advantage. Despite the 3 point hold, that game favored offensive gameplay way more than DoA5 does. DoA5 for the most part is a defensive game. It's just a simple fact Degalon and Mailifang that neither of you know how to play. Especially you Degalon who I have played against. You throw out slow attacks in neutral, you attack when you are at a disadvantage, you never fully utilize Mila's tools. You play her incorrectly. You have no idea how to play this game, and because you refuse to learn and take advice given to you, you continue to make ignorant statements. How can you expect anyone to listen to you when you are not even willing to learn how to play on top of calling things cheap when you get the chance.

DoA5 has its problems, but being a rushdown/mashy game is certainly not one of its issues given how the majority of the cast is negative on block when they attack.

Its hard to take whatever you say seriously with that big troll face for an avatar pic. I said all what I had to say. You never played against me so it isn't a fact. Maybe the rest of the cast is perfectly balanced to play with in the rules of the game play and a handful of characters are busted? Or maybe the whole majority of attacks being negative on block thing everyone seems to talk about is only good for theory and frame debates and have no bearing on the actual game play to the point it really matters? Who know's?

I used to punish unsafe attacks a lot in previous DOA games. With DOA 5 its a crap shoot. Only time you are able to punish unsafe attacks is when those attacks are truly not safe.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Edit:
lol I refresh the page and you edit your entire post into a completely different response. You don't have to take me seriously, but fact is, I do know what I am talking about most of the time. You and Degalon on the other hand show much of your inexperience with the game in most all of your posts. For the most part, there is nothing wrong with that, everyone starts somewhere, but both you have a habit of arguing against people who know how to play and both of you have continued to be corrected with facts but continue to argue back.
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Defending(from neutral):
Blocking
Fuzzy Guarding
Side Stepping
Spacing/KBD
Defensive Holds
Counter Hits/Whiff punishment
Throw Punishment

Attacking(from neutral):
High,mid,low mix ups where the majority of the attacks are -5 or higher on block. A simple jab from the defender will instantly stop the flow of most of any "mashers" pressure, especially if they free cancel where most of the time that leaves them -8 or higher.

Throws(and character specific OH's)

I suppose you could throw defensive holds in there as a smart player could read a counter hit coming.

Hate to break it to you, but the attacker is at a pretty massive disadvantage at neutral. And lol at using Helena as an example. Yes, she has some extremely BS tech, but she is hardly a fast character, and a lot of her shit is extremely unsafe on block. Her neutral game is terrible. It's when she gets you into a juggle is when the BS blender begins and we have seen good players shut it down. If you can stop her blender she is really no threat at all.

DoA5 is FAR from being tailored towards offensive play. The frame data alone just doesn't allow it, and the over the top stun game makes it even worse. You wanna know just some simple examples of the difference? I'll use Hitomi and Jann Lee as examples since those have been my mains since DoA2U.

Jann Lee 66k and all variants of 66k (6pk, p2p6) were all +1 on block in DoA3.1. DoA5, they are all -4. 2p on hi counter hit allowed for 236p followup and 2p on hit was +1 in doa3.1. In DoA5 it's -1. You could counter these setups, but if you were near a wall and your counter gets read? Well, you're going to get put into a deadly wall reset by JL, or get juggled from a dragon gunner setup.

Hitomi's 3f+k was +1-3 in 3.1 depending on the range of the hit on block.. In DoA5 it's -3 to -4 depending on the range of the hit on block. 2p is actually the one thing that is similar in 3.1 and 5 as they are both +1. The difference is in 3.1 on hi counter hit she could get an unblockable 46p, which near a wall was pretty deadly.

It might not seem like much to you, but the difference is pretty significant considering 3.1 you could set up dangerous frame traps and in 5 it's just a crap shoot if you get blocked well because frame traps outside of select characters just don't exist in DoA5.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Most people don't have exp with 3.1 though, was the frame data similar with 3.0 and 2u?

For the most part yes. With 3.1 they altered FSD a bit and most of the cast got 1 or 2 moves that gave frame advantage and some new guard breaks. Hayate was the only one with frame advantage in 3.0. But the general gameplay in 2u and 3.0 was still the same with unholdable setups, limbo stuns etc...

But that's all beside the point. Experience or not, those two claim DoA5 favors aggressive gameplay when the reality is it truly does not.
 

SilverKhaos

Active Member
Its hard to take whatever you say seriously with that big troll face for an avatar pic. I said all what I had to say. You never played against me so it isn't a fact. Maybe the rest of the cast is perfectly balanced to play with in the rules of the game play and a handful of characters are busted? Or maybe the whole majority of attacks being negative on block thing everyone seems to talk about is only good for theory and frame debates and have no bearing on the actual game play to the point it really matters? Who know's?

I used to punish unsafe attacks a lot in previous DOA games. With DOA 5 its a crap shoot. Only time you are able to punish unsafe attacks is when those attacks are truly not safe.

I'm assuming that's in response to Raansu (I have him ignored because he IS a well known and admitted troll). So with him, it's not a matter of "don't take what he says seriously", it's just a matter of "take in what he says, but keep in mind that he's very narrow minded and...abrasive, to say the least".

Read his posts, but just, yaknow, take it with a grain of salt. He doesn't really consider everything when he responds. Like the few times I "played" him (first time I just got the game had no idea what I was doing, second time, neither one of us was paying much attention), most of his...comments were trying to tell me i was using Mila "incorrectly" and that I had to do THIS to do safe guaranteed damage, etc. He doesn't comprehend that I'm not TRYING to do guaranteed damage, and I already know how to do it the guaranteed way. The advice (minus the attitude) would have been great, had it been relevant.

just checked his posts...and...yep, just as I said. (though on the plus side, it seems he's mellowed out a bit)

Though he was mostly just talking about mechanics, which isn't the issue at all. Can say "the mechanics favor defense" all you want, doesn't change the fact that the additional guaranteed situations, coupled with reduced counter effectiveness (I honestly find countering to be smoother this way, but i'm talking generally here) translate into "Players now play in a more rushdown oriented style which is supported by the changes in the game".

Things being negative on block or unsafe and whatnot is mostly irrelevant on the larger scene. Most players have no idea what is negative on block, nor do they care, as minute details like that only come into play at the absolute highest level. Only people who come to sites like this would have any idea things like that even exist.

For example. I like to do big slow attacks without any type of setup. Why? Because I like to use mindgames to land it;, it's an extremely satisfying playstyle. Milas overhead hook is slow as hell, and predictable: Which doesn't really matter when its coming down on an opponent who can't do anything about it because they are in the middle of an attempted grab, midair attack, crouch, or charging rush that you successfully baited them into doing.

I have people saying not to use that move, it's unsafe, miscellaneous frames info, yadda yadda yadda (like raansu does), I'm aware of all that. I don't care about any of it. Because in practice, it works just fine, its an excellent trap, and a powerful blow.

So like I said, the info he gives is good to know, but remember that it's not always relevant. Most of what he replies with is purely "on paper" kind of information, and is rarely relevant in practice unless again, you are playing at the absolute highest level, against someone of the absolute highest level. And on top of that, you have to consider whether its relevant to your playstyle. For those who focus on mindgames, it's usually not, as that kind of info is more relevant to people trying to do max damage combos, studying the game to that end.

Long story short, DOA5 is more supportive of rushdown offense largely due to the psychological effect of the gameplay changes. Raansu's responses are mostly just numbers and data which, while good to know, are not always relevant, and those responses that aren't about the data of the mechanics are mostly just him not understanding that different people use different playstyle, so his "advice" is not always relevant.

So yes, he is a well known and pretty much self-admitted troll, but check his posts anyway, they usually contain some semi-useful neutral information. Just filter out the attitude and bias as you read, and decide what of what he responded with is actually useful to YOU.


3 30 in the morning, sorry for the meandering nature of the post.

Still not sure how there's a lack of mindgames in DoA5. I play mindgames and GET mindgamed practically all the time. Baiting for counters and the dreaded turtling being the biggest offenders. Perhaps the definition of mindgame varies between players, but what do I know? <.<

No, it's still there, it's just to a lesser extent than previous DOAs, from my experience. You'll still find far more mindgames in DOA than most other fighters, but it just seems like far less mindgames than previous DOAs.

Anyways. yall can argue frame and data numbers all ya want. Doesn't do a thing to change the fact that players are more rushdown-oriented in DOA5 thanks to reduced counter effectiveness and upped guaranteed situations making them have less fear of being punished.

Though I don't think bringing back the DOA4 levels of damage would be the right solution to deter mindless rushdown either. Maybe just make the counters easier to perform again without upping the damage? Well no, then they'd just resume the offense. COULD bring the damage back up. That definitely works for making people use their heads more...but then you get people complaining that counters do too much damage, which, given the versatility of counters, is a legitimate complaint...bah, too tired to think about it right now.

I'm generally okay with all other mechanical changes, it's just that they need to do two things

1) Bring back the DOA aesthetic. sleek blue and silver menus, catchy music, arcade mode cinematic endings, bright and vibrant levels, more UNLOCKABLE costumes, not palette swap or copy paste DLC

2) Make it so people fear being punished again. This is supposed to be the more mindgame oriented fighter, but its leaning too far into "mindless rushdown", and doesn't bode well for future installments of the game.

Well, technically 3 things, because they also need to

3) Bring back Leon.

And i'm cutting this post off before I wander back over later and ramble off on something else to add onto this post. Again.

Night! Well, morning now, but whatever.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
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Degalon will never understand.
 

Jaguar360

Well-Known Member
Still not sure how there's a lack of mindgames in DoA5. I play mindgames and GET mindgamed practically all the time. Baiting for counters and the dreaded turtling being the biggest offenders. Perhaps the definition of mindgame varies between players, but what do I know? <.<
I see what you mean. There are plenty of different ways to play mindgames in DOA5. You just have to find them, I guess. Some old ways have gone away, but as I said before, you can bait for hi-counter throws, mix up your strikes, etc.
 

Jaguar360

Well-Known Member
To me, DOA5 feels like a combo contest. "Who can string the longest combo first?" It doesn't feel the same to me because it seems like you have to always use complicated combos to win, especially online (Jann Lee is the worst to fight against, I swear). It's just not me.
Well, that's not been working for me! I think its more about just landing hits and using frame data to know which hit to use at what time. Combos just help you get more damage from the hits.
 

Nightpup

Well-Known Member
I still don't see the "lack of mindgames" you all talk about. Every time I fight someone, I have to use mindgames to get anywhere at all. You have no idea how satisfying it is to bait people into Alpha-152's :236::236::H+P:, or to kill their free cancelling with :6::6::H+P::5::2::H+P: and immediately gain the offensive, or Guard Break them several times and follow up with the same move, then when they try to hold it, throw them instead. DOA is still 90% mindgames and always will be. Fighting games PERIOD are 90% mindgames.
 

Jaguar360

Well-Known Member
I still don't see the "lack of mindgames" you all talk about. Every time I fight someone, I have to use mindgames to get anywhere at all. You have no idea how satisfying it is to bait people into Alpha-152's :236::236::H+P:, or to kill their free cancelling with :6::6::H+P::5::2::H+P: and immediately gain the offensive, or Guard Break them several times and follow up with the same move, then when they try to hold it, throw them instead. DOA is still 90% mindgames and always will be. Fighting games PERIOD are 90% mindgames.
Alpha is basically the definition of mindgames lol. That's why she's my secondary character.
 

FlamingMuffin

Active Member
I really don't know how else to explain why DOA5 is not a rushdown game (lack of frame advantage, defending players have more options, etc) so I just won't lol. I will end in saying, I want cheaper DLC. 540 points for all of the costumes in the most recent packs is reasonable (thus I bought them). 1040 for just the girls is dumb. I only paid $27 for this game, no way am I spending more than 50% of what I paid on 11 costumes. That is what hasn't worked for me.
 
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