WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
EDIT: DOA6 released! Click here for the follow-up post with all the things they fixed https://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa5lr-flawed-mechanics.6811/post-418655
The majority of these mechanics/bugs have existed in every DOA as far as I know. I just wanted to get these out of my head, I don't really expect anyone to sit down and read everything + the references. This is just my boring "wish list" for muh dream DOA5LR patch/DOA6 system changes aimed to the devs, so here we go.
1. Counter Hit while Back Dashing
Characters should not be punished with a Counter Hit while Back Dashing, as it discourages spacing. Not even an offensive maneuver such as FORWARD dashing gets punished like that!
SOLUTION: being hit while Back Dashing should block if the player is holding Back or cause Normal Hit if he isn't holding Back.
2. Unreliable Launcher heights
There are way too many confusing types of possible launcher heights which makes juggle combos somehow unpredictable:
Various outcomes of Hayabusa 3P+K launching another Hayabusa in different situations, this is not even a complete list:
But the inconsistencies don't stop here.
Some specific launchers have issues such as Jann Lee's 9K against a Back Turned opponent launching lower than Front (old problem, DOA2U behaved in the same way).
Being hit during "pre-jump" frames increases launcher height, and that's ok...
...but this is not ok when it happens to something like Jann Lee's idle stance! During that animation Jann Lee is constantly doing "mini-jumps", so depending on when you hit the Jann Lee player, the launcher height will change too every time, unpredictably.
SOLUTION: there should only be two launcher heights: a low one for Neutral Hit launchers, and an high one for the rest of the situations. We already have enough launcher variety (launchers initiated by throws, holds, strike bounces, environment bounces, "re-launchers" during juggles, Power Launchers, different launcher heights depending on the strike being used, and weight), so there's no need to add more confusion
3. Stand Block to Crouch Block transition delay
Blocking from standing to crouching (and viceversa) takes several frames. This artificial delay makes the game more guess based, punishes good reflexes and makes the controls feel slow. Bass has the best example to show how problematic this can get. Try Blocking Bass' 3P+KT and then crouch the throw by holding DownBack: you can't. The throw will hit you because the blockstun and the standing to crouching transition are too long.
The game is subject to a wide range of unavoidable delays already: online latency, TV/monitor lag, controller/converter delays, the in-game 1 frame move delay while not lying on the floor (to properly detect multi inputs move such as 2H+P+K), and more.
SOLUTION: we don't need an artificial delay to the blocking action. All StandBlock>CrouchBlock and CrouchBlock>StandBlock switch frames transitions should be reduced to 1 frame (instantaneous). This would also remove the need to Fuzzy Guard through the awkward "334" input to bypass the transition
4. Unholdables
A so-called "unholdable" represents that 1 frame of uninterruptible "idle animation" frame that plays after nearly every animation in the game, during which you can only Block, not Block and (sometimes) Crouch.
This is the root of many evils, such as:
- unblockable guaranteed attacks
- attacks that can only be Blocked but not Held
- inconsistent frame data in general, especially with stance moves
- weird interactions involving moves with a down input (makes 2P+K sidesteps better than 8P+K ones)
- in a way, it makes the whole game "1 frame slower"
- it is most likely the cause of FSDC, the oldest and most game-breaking glitch in the entire franchise
SOLUTION: this has existed in previous DOA entries as well for no apparent reason (tested in DOA2U PC). It's time to finally get rid of it
5. Back Turned to Front Turned transition
Characters should be able to transition from BT to front turned INSTANTLY. Several exploits that have plagued the DOA series would cease to exist.
- the developers will not need to make every BT stun reset to Front Turned like they've been doing in DOA5 to prevent infinite combos, so we can get the good old guaranteed BT stun combos back in the process
- no more unexpected BT-related guaranteed exploits such as Hayabusa's 3P+KP+K Force Tech and Alpha's FLOAT->P Force Tech, or Jann Lee's wall throw back shenanigans
- no more need to make the "BT hurtbox" so small (this is how easy it was to hit the back of your opponent back in DOA2U)
- certain characters such as Pai, Brad Wong and Leifang are able to cheat the system with specific attacks that make them Front Turned instantly (or slightly earlier in Leifang BT Holds case), allowing them to escape many guaranteed combos
SOLUTION: make the BT->FT transition happen instantly, it would solve so many issues. If necessary increase the frame advantage on the throws/holds with guaranteed follow ups by a bit
6. Open/Closed stance differences
Some moves can only be chained together when you are in the correct stance. Most DOA players don't bother paying attention to this, but the existence of this issue actually affects negatively a countless amount of situations by making moves, combos and hitbox interactions only happen when both characters are facing the "proper" direction.
SOLUTION: keeping track of the current stance and adjusting your combos accordingly in real-time is probably not humanly possible and I've never heard of it being a thing, so it would be great to solve this problem, but I doubt this is easy to fix. I mean, even Virtua Fighter which is a different series entirely is also affected by this issue
7. Taunt animations on hit
Forced taunts on certain strikes significantly reduce frame advantage. Jann Lee and Hitomi are affected the most. There have been various cases in several DOA games where those moves could even become PUNISHABLE ON HIT. Example of Jann Lee being -16 after a forced taunt in DOA5LR:
They may also outright interrupt environment combos involving breakables:
SOLUTION: on hit taunts should always be optional and fully (free?) cancellable at any time. If the player decides to not input anything, the taunt should play. This way, the developers won't need to use those convoluted distance/wallhit checks anymore to prevent most "unsafe-on-hit" situations, which can be unreliable, or having to force hard knockdowns which slow the game down, and the players would still be happy to decide between "style" or frame advantage
8. Negative Guard Breaks
A Guard Break in fighting games is supposed to be "the action of performing an attack which is blocked, but leaves the blocking player open to a further attack". Negative Guard Breaks or Guard Breaks that don't guarantee any other attack only serve the purpose of deceiving the player with confusing visual feedbacks right now.
SOLUTION: give Guard Break animations only to moves that let you connect a guaranteed followup
9. Unpredictable camera switch on hold-resistant attacks
It currently is ambiguous and unpredictable. Sometimes the players will switch side, sometimes they will not, which often hinders the correct inputs of a punish.
SOLUTION: the animation at fault could probably be replaced with the old DOA2U/DOA3 one which never really had any issue. The current "side step-looking" animation can stay the same when projectiles are being Held though, since the camera issue doesn't occur over long distances
10. Vague ping display
The game uses a vague number from 1 to 5 to show the current lag during online matches. How exactly these numbers translate to milliseconds/frames is still unknown to this day. Additionally it uses symbols <#> when the opponent is playing wireless and [#] when cabled (which is a good feature actually).
SOLUTION: can we get a meaningful ping display just like in DOAO, and maybe even a FPS display (especially useful for PC players with framerate slowdowns)? DOAO used to show the real latency expressed in "coloured milliseconds" (white=good yellow=decent red=bad) and packet loss rate, those were excellent to have. Make it togglable in the options if it's too "disturbing"
11. Training dummy issues
The training dummy currently "lies" to the player in a few ways:
- the AI can do several AI-only moves
- when Recovery is set to OFF, the dummy will always wake up from the ground 1 frame earlier than a player with perfect timing
- when Throw Escape is set to FASTEST, the dummy will break escapable throws 1 frame slower than a human with frame-perfect timing
- when Stagger Escape is set to FASTEST, the dummy will actually escape 1 frame slower than a human at max speed
(the dummy will not block this combo at SE fastest, but a player can)
SOLUTION: fix the above mentioned issues and make them more close to "reality"
12. Frame buffer system not working during Danger Zones
DOA5LR, like most of the fighting games, has a smart 10 frame long input buffer system in order to make moves more lenient to connect. The only problem is that it stops working during Danger Zone animations, making the first move unnecessarily hard to execute.
SOLUTION: this is most likely an unwanted bug which should just... be fixed
13. Hi Counter/Counter holds are just luck
The Hi Counter window for holds is 2 frames long. You can't really control exactly when the enemy strikes you and decide to pull off a Normal/Counter/Hi-Counter hold on reaction... it just happens and changes the damage outcome significantly.
SOLUTION: a better system would probably be to assign the Hi Counter modifier to holds that are successfully executed outside of the stun threshold, and normal damage ones for holding during a stun. This is not even my own idea, the game already does it but to a lower extent (holding outside of stun = 100%, inside of stun = 80%). This would reward "sick reads" more than "panic holds" and remove a luck factor too in the process
14. Comeback mechanics
Power Blows and Power Launchers are strong moves that can only be triggered when the health is less than half, so it pretty much rewards the loser for... losing.
SOLUTION: just remove the health trigger, keep the "max 1" limit and maybe change its visual feedback. Fighting games seem to get more and more comeback mechanics. Can we remain the only ones without one pretty please
15. Randomness in some trade situations
Trading certain attacks in DOA at the same frame can result in randomly generated outcomes where the winner is decided by sheer luck.
SOLUTION: the less RNG the better no matter how rarely they can occur
16. Remove the Stagger Escape mashing mechanic
This one may seem a bit too subjective and drastic, but I have several reasons to get this mechanic removed:
- you are directly being rewarded for straight out MASHING your controller
- mashing continuous 360 motions can be especially hard on certain peripherals such as keyboards or Hit Box Arcades
- mashing at max speed on a joypad for an extended period of time could even be physically painful to do. Witnessing the opponent continuing his combo in spite of your efforts to SE is pretty frustrating too
- it makes nearly every stun in the game variable in length, sloppy
- it can occur accidentally, like, if the opponent was just happening to press random buttons and directions during a stun, he's also reducing stun time and may be able to block the enemy followup in time
- the training dummy MAX SE speed is incorrect (read point #11 for more info)
- the exact specifics behind the SE system are still largely unknown and undocumented. All we know as players is simply "mash buttons&directions to shorten most stuns" but we don't get to know how many frames we can shave off a stun, how many inputs are required, what are the most efficient inputs etc.
- it's pretty much the only mechanic in the entire game that can be cheated with macros/autofire/turbo capable controllers (which is personally what I do, I don't want tendinitis)
- not even the developers themselves know what to do with this mechanic since the inner workings of it keep changing in every DOA. To be honest it only exists because someone decades ago thought that SE would've been cool in DOA just because it was in VF
SOLUTION: remove SE and adjust every stun duration into anything in-between NO SE and FASTEST SE accordingly. We already have the Hold system that can act as a combo breaker
still love DOA Team Ninja is da bes
The majority of these mechanics/bugs have existed in every DOA as far as I know. I just wanted to get these out of my head, I don't really expect anyone to sit down and read everything + the references. This is just my boring "wish list" for muh dream DOA5LR patch/DOA6 system changes aimed to the devs, so here we go.
1. Counter Hit while Back Dashing
Characters should not be punished with a Counter Hit while Back Dashing, as it discourages spacing. Not even an offensive maneuver such as FORWARD dashing gets punished like that!
SOLUTION: being hit while Back Dashing should block if the player is holding Back or cause Normal Hit if he isn't holding Back.
2. Unreliable Launcher heights
There are way too many confusing types of possible launcher heights which makes juggle combos somehow unpredictable:
Various outcomes of Hayabusa 3P+K launching another Hayabusa in different situations, this is not even a complete list:
Code:
- Normal Standing = 1.569000959m
- LV.1 critical Standing = 1.607422829m
- Normal Crouching = 1.637314796m
- LV.1 critical Crouching / LV.2 critical Standing / Normal Standing Back Turned / = 1.764707327m
- LV.1 critical Standing Back Turned / LV.2 critical Crouching / LV.3 critical Standing BT/FT / Hi Counter Standing / Normal Back Turned Crouching / Critical Burst = 1.860717654m
- LV.3 critical Crouching / Hi Counter Crouching / Hi Counter Crouching Back Turned = 1.892233968mSome specific launchers have issues such as Jann Lee's 9K against a Back Turned opponent launching lower than Front (old problem, DOA2U behaved in the same way).
Being hit during "pre-jump" frames increases launcher height, and that's ok...
...but this is not ok when it happens to something like Jann Lee's idle stance! During that animation Jann Lee is constantly doing "mini-jumps", so depending on when you hit the Jann Lee player, the launcher height will change too every time, unpredictably.
SOLUTION: there should only be two launcher heights: a low one for Neutral Hit launchers, and an high one for the rest of the situations. We already have enough launcher variety (launchers initiated by throws, holds, strike bounces, environment bounces, "re-launchers" during juggles, Power Launchers, different launcher heights depending on the strike being used, and weight), so there's no need to add more confusion
3. Stand Block to Crouch Block transition delay
Blocking from standing to crouching (and viceversa) takes several frames. This artificial delay makes the game more guess based, punishes good reflexes and makes the controls feel slow. Bass has the best example to show how problematic this can get. Try Blocking Bass' 3P+KT and then crouch the throw by holding DownBack: you can't. The throw will hit you because the blockstun and the standing to crouching transition are too long.
The game is subject to a wide range of unavoidable delays already: online latency, TV/monitor lag, controller/converter delays, the in-game 1 frame move delay while not lying on the floor (to properly detect multi inputs move such as 2H+P+K), and more.
SOLUTION: we don't need an artificial delay to the blocking action. All StandBlock>CrouchBlock and CrouchBlock>StandBlock switch frames transitions should be reduced to 1 frame (instantaneous). This would also remove the need to Fuzzy Guard through the awkward "334" input to bypass the transition
4. Unholdables
A so-called "unholdable" represents that 1 frame of uninterruptible "idle animation" frame that plays after nearly every animation in the game, during which you can only Block, not Block and (sometimes) Crouch.
This is the root of many evils, such as:
- unblockable guaranteed attacks
- attacks that can only be Blocked but not Held
- inconsistent frame data in general, especially with stance moves
- weird interactions involving moves with a down input (makes 2P+K sidesteps better than 8P+K ones)
- in a way, it makes the whole game "1 frame slower"
- it is most likely the cause of FSDC, the oldest and most game-breaking glitch in the entire franchise
SOLUTION: this has existed in previous DOA entries as well for no apparent reason (tested in DOA2U PC). It's time to finally get rid of it
5. Back Turned to Front Turned transition
Characters should be able to transition from BT to front turned INSTANTLY. Several exploits that have plagued the DOA series would cease to exist.
- the developers will not need to make every BT stun reset to Front Turned like they've been doing in DOA5 to prevent infinite combos, so we can get the good old guaranteed BT stun combos back in the process
- no more unexpected BT-related guaranteed exploits such as Hayabusa's 3P+KP+K Force Tech and Alpha's FLOAT->P Force Tech, or Jann Lee's wall throw back shenanigans
- no more need to make the "BT hurtbox" so small (this is how easy it was to hit the back of your opponent back in DOA2U)
- certain characters such as Pai, Brad Wong and Leifang are able to cheat the system with specific attacks that make them Front Turned instantly (or slightly earlier in Leifang BT Holds case), allowing them to escape many guaranteed combos
SOLUTION: make the BT->FT transition happen instantly, it would solve so many issues. If necessary increase the frame advantage on the throws/holds with guaranteed follow ups by a bit
6. Open/Closed stance differences
Some moves can only be chained together when you are in the correct stance. Most DOA players don't bother paying attention to this, but the existence of this issue actually affects negatively a countless amount of situations by making moves, combos and hitbox interactions only happen when both characters are facing the "proper" direction.
SOLUTION: keeping track of the current stance and adjusting your combos accordingly in real-time is probably not humanly possible and I've never heard of it being a thing, so it would be great to solve this problem, but I doubt this is easy to fix. I mean, even Virtua Fighter which is a different series entirely is also affected by this issue
7. Taunt animations on hit
Forced taunts on certain strikes significantly reduce frame advantage. Jann Lee and Hitomi are affected the most. There have been various cases in several DOA games where those moves could even become PUNISHABLE ON HIT. Example of Jann Lee being -16 after a forced taunt in DOA5LR:
They may also outright interrupt environment combos involving breakables:
SOLUTION: on hit taunts should always be optional and fully (free?) cancellable at any time. If the player decides to not input anything, the taunt should play. This way, the developers won't need to use those convoluted distance/wallhit checks anymore to prevent most "unsafe-on-hit" situations, which can be unreliable, or having to force hard knockdowns which slow the game down, and the players would still be happy to decide between "style" or frame advantage
8. Negative Guard Breaks
A Guard Break in fighting games is supposed to be "the action of performing an attack which is blocked, but leaves the blocking player open to a further attack". Negative Guard Breaks or Guard Breaks that don't guarantee any other attack only serve the purpose of deceiving the player with confusing visual feedbacks right now.
SOLUTION: give Guard Break animations only to moves that let you connect a guaranteed followup
9. Unpredictable camera switch on hold-resistant attacks
It currently is ambiguous and unpredictable. Sometimes the players will switch side, sometimes they will not, which often hinders the correct inputs of a punish.
SOLUTION: the animation at fault could probably be replaced with the old DOA2U/DOA3 one which never really had any issue. The current "side step-looking" animation can stay the same when projectiles are being Held though, since the camera issue doesn't occur over long distances
10. Vague ping display
The game uses a vague number from 1 to 5 to show the current lag during online matches. How exactly these numbers translate to milliseconds/frames is still unknown to this day. Additionally it uses symbols <#> when the opponent is playing wireless and [#] when cabled (which is a good feature actually).
SOLUTION: can we get a meaningful ping display just like in DOAO, and maybe even a FPS display (especially useful for PC players with framerate slowdowns)? DOAO used to show the real latency expressed in "coloured milliseconds" (white=good yellow=decent red=bad) and packet loss rate, those were excellent to have. Make it togglable in the options if it's too "disturbing"
11. Training dummy issues
The training dummy currently "lies" to the player in a few ways:
- the AI can do several AI-only moves
- when Recovery is set to OFF, the dummy will always wake up from the ground 1 frame earlier than a player with perfect timing
- when Throw Escape is set to FASTEST, the dummy will break escapable throws 1 frame slower than a human with frame-perfect timing
- when Stagger Escape is set to FASTEST, the dummy will actually escape 1 frame slower than a human at max speed
(the dummy will not block this combo at SE fastest, but a player can)
SOLUTION: fix the above mentioned issues and make them more close to "reality"
12. Frame buffer system not working during Danger Zones
DOA5LR, like most of the fighting games, has a smart 10 frame long input buffer system in order to make moves more lenient to connect. The only problem is that it stops working during Danger Zone animations, making the first move unnecessarily hard to execute.
SOLUTION: this is most likely an unwanted bug which should just... be fixed
13. Hi Counter/Counter holds are just luck
The Hi Counter window for holds is 2 frames long. You can't really control exactly when the enemy strikes you and decide to pull off a Normal/Counter/Hi-Counter hold on reaction... it just happens and changes the damage outcome significantly.
SOLUTION: a better system would probably be to assign the Hi Counter modifier to holds that are successfully executed outside of the stun threshold, and normal damage ones for holding during a stun. This is not even my own idea, the game already does it but to a lower extent (holding outside of stun = 100%, inside of stun = 80%). This would reward "sick reads" more than "panic holds" and remove a luck factor too in the process
14. Comeback mechanics
Power Blows and Power Launchers are strong moves that can only be triggered when the health is less than half, so it pretty much rewards the loser for... losing.
SOLUTION: just remove the health trigger, keep the "max 1" limit and maybe change its visual feedback. Fighting games seem to get more and more comeback mechanics. Can we remain the only ones without one pretty please
15. Randomness in some trade situations
Trading certain attacks in DOA at the same frame can result in randomly generated outcomes where the winner is decided by sheer luck.
SOLUTION: the less RNG the better no matter how rarely they can occur
16. Remove the Stagger Escape mashing mechanic
This one may seem a bit too subjective and drastic, but I have several reasons to get this mechanic removed:
- you are directly being rewarded for straight out MASHING your controller
- mashing continuous 360 motions can be especially hard on certain peripherals such as keyboards or Hit Box Arcades
- mashing at max speed on a joypad for an extended period of time could even be physically painful to do. Witnessing the opponent continuing his combo in spite of your efforts to SE is pretty frustrating too
- it makes nearly every stun in the game variable in length, sloppy
- it can occur accidentally, like, if the opponent was just happening to press random buttons and directions during a stun, he's also reducing stun time and may be able to block the enemy followup in time
- the training dummy MAX SE speed is incorrect (read point #11 for more info)
- the exact specifics behind the SE system are still largely unknown and undocumented. All we know as players is simply "mash buttons&directions to shorten most stuns" but we don't get to know how many frames we can shave off a stun, how many inputs are required, what are the most efficient inputs etc.
- it's pretty much the only mechanic in the entire game that can be cheated with macros/autofire/turbo capable controllers (which is personally what I do, I don't want tendinitis)
- not even the developers themselves know what to do with this mechanic since the inner workings of it keep changing in every DOA. To be honest it only exists because someone decades ago thought that SE would've been cool in DOA just because it was in VF
SOLUTION: remove SE and adjust every stun duration into anything in-between NO SE and FASTEST SE accordingly. We already have the Hold system that can act as a combo breaker
still love DOA Team Ninja is da bes
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