WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
This is the "sequel" to the DOA5LR flawed mechanics thread. I'm not going to repeat the points of the previous thread.
As always the main focus is about shedding some light on some imperfect fighting mechanics that could be potentially improved upon.
INDEX
As documented in the official changelog, 2 hands + 2 feet + 1 big pill:
Here's how they look:
This is huge. Some of the consequences include:
- evasive attacks have been ruined completely. Classics like Leifang 1P, Ayane 4P, Hayabusa 3P+K, Kasumi 33P, Zack 33K etc. could be used to evade Medium Strikes, and that is no longer possible. Poor Brad Wong suffered the most from this change, since evasion was a major part of his gameplan
- due to the hands&feet hurtboxes, pokes in general have become more "stubby", meaning that most of the time your hurtbox reaches farther than your hitbox, sort of like what happened from SF4 to SF5
- since the new hands&feet are so disjointed, jarring "phantom hits" or "stray hits" are more common now
* https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/giftedfocusedislandcanary-mobile.mp4 (wouldn't have happened without the hands hurtboxes, CONFIRMED with modding)
* https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HideousFrequentBurro-mobile.mp4 (this weird stray hit interaction can still be reproduced in DOA5LR, but it's way harder there)
- this is not a global change, but some attacks that could be used to jump over the opponent have been limited to prevent it by increasing pushbox sizes. This is most likely a byproduct of the Bound into Close Hit combo system in an attempt to make those attacks not whiff, and that's a whole different can of worms
- this is a niche side effect that's not documented in the 1.15 changelog. Besides HIGHS not being able to hit the "big pill", there's another rule: you cannot hit the big pill of JUMPING opponents. But, since projectiles like Raidou 1P+K or Mai 236P (which is a High!) use a different collision system, they bypass the rule because the developers forgot
- there's another exception/inconsistency with the "can't hit the big pill if it's Jumping" rule: some Jumping types are ignored and you can hit them (specifically the unlisted Airborne frames):
SOLUTION:
Just undo it all.
Kill it with fire. Go back to the sane hitboxes we had in DOA5LR, or even better, DOA3 (afaik there's been a slight increase in global hurtbox size from DOA3 to DOA2U to "compensate for lag", but they both feel great).
All it did was kill most of the combo variety, everything looks the same. That's it. DOA never needed this. Most of the time for most of the characters that combo route has simultaneously the best damage and the best wall carry, experimenting with anything else is suboptimal.
They even SACRIFICED some interesting Jumping moves that could be used to "corpse hop" by adding them huge pushboxes, all in the name of Bound into Close Hit just so they don't whiff against the Bound stun... which I don't understand because they could've simply increased the hurtboxes on the VICTIM of the Bound stun animation instead! To add insult to injury, for Lisa her Bound into 236P Close Hit is not even optimal, so the sacrifice was for nothing.
SOLUTION:
Just undo it.
The gimmick has ran its course, just remove the system for the next DOA.
Real match examples:
https://clips.twitch.tv/PrettiestAmericanPineappleTBTacoRight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr4oWBy08PA
Such an arbitrary and frustrating mechanic when it happens. It bends the 2nd staple win condition of fighting games:
#1 deplete the opponent's health
#2 have more health than the opponent when the timer runs out
It's inconsistent for a multitude of reasons.
- Why not pause the timer for ALL Danger Zones?
- Why not pause it for Strikes too on hit? LEt mE finisH THE sTRinG!
- But let's arbitrarily pretend Strikes aren't worth it because they're not considered "cutscenes" or whatever that means. Throws and Holds that launch or put the opponent back-turned exist, they require follow-ups to deal proper damage, so why don't they also pause the timer for the whole guaranteed combo?
- "But ThrOws HAvE mUcH LOnGEr ANiMATiOns SO THEY neEd it!" First of all, don't use your longest attacks when you have no time left lmao. Sure they usually take more time than Strikes to deal damage in general, but it's easy to find Strikes where the opposite is true. For example (within the same character) Nyotengu 6T deals damage in 37 frames, and 4P+K takes up to 255 frames (64 frames with the shortest charge)
- Also, I'd argue they're not true cutscenes, because they can be interrupted with Throw breaks and coconuts. Checkmate.
SOLUTION:
Just undo it.
Return to the sane, flawless behavior any DOA had before. Allowing damage past timer 0 is lame spoonfeeding and inconsistent. Should've played better throughout the other 59 seconds!
Wall break transitions - breakable boxes - explosive boxes - explosive walls - explosive bouncing walls - explosive floors - exploding bouncing floors - ropes - electrified ropes - citizen assists - ceilings - slippery floors... you name it. In DOA6 it feels like positioning yourself in the map is pointless, because no matter where you go, you WILL blow something up, now smile for the camera because it's combo video time. This also contributes to making the game more stun heavy.
- wall break transition triggers used to be more nuanced with stricter distance and alignment requirements. In DOA6 even just BARELY lightly touching a DZ will trigger it in full, and it can often look absurd
SIDE NOTE: in the following clip we can also see some finer attention to detail:
* in the 6 clip at at max distance, the animation of the victim looks bad because there's no space to be pushed backwards anymore
* in 6 all 3 fences just obliterate, while in 2U only the relevant wall breaks
* in 2U the DZ camera work is more dynamic and usually just looks better (less abrupt cuts)
* in the 6 clip the Kasumi is playing the "landing VFX" midair
* in 2U the side wallsplat creates a unique interaction where the wall does break but the transition doesn't occur and since the wall is now gone, that area has mutated into a different kind of DZ where you can instead fall down directly!
- this isn't strictly related to DZ, but respawn points have become less accurate. It feels like you have less agency over the match. Sometimes in the beach stage you end a round in the sand, and the next one you are teleported in the middle of the water (which has gameplay ramifications due to slip stuns). Unforgettable is even worse, you end the round at the edge of a DZ vault and the next round you're teleported inside
SOLUTION:
Can't really have a specific one, just guidelines. Stages need to use DZ's more sparingly, and they should restore the stricter alignment/distance requirements needed to trigger them so that they happen with less frequency and feel more special (alternatively, with more budget they could add different DZ effects for full/half/far wallsplats). They should take a page out of DOA2U's book which has the best stages in the series without having to put firecrackers all over the damn place.
The developers achieved this in a few key ways:
- several Strikes that used to cause knockdowns have been turned into stuns
- in some other cases, a CH stun would push the opponent far enough to limit follow-ups
- the first hit of a stun no longer counts towards the max stun threshold
- in the old stun design, the threshold for Counter Hit was the same as Normal Hit. So a CH stun gave you even less combo opportunity than a NH one
SOLUTION:
Copy the old DOA3/DOA2U stun design (in my opinion the knockdowns also animate better and "feel stronger").
This is a major change, which should probably come with lower health defaults, but the smell radiated by DOA4 *STILL* lingers as of DOA6. Some attempts at reducing it have been made:
- DOA5 nerfed Wake-Up Kick stuns, reduced the penalty of getting hit during a backdash from HC to CH, made slip stuns less absurd, made the edges of cliffs no longer CH
- DOA6 removed Stagger Escape while simultaneously reducing stun duration across the board, and removed the "higher stun threshold = higher launch" mechanic
but we've been swimming in stun-heavy DOA's for so long many have forgotten or never even experienced how great DOA3 felt to play. How good it feels to NOT have to play the stun game for 95% of a match. Sure stuns were still long in 2U/3 especially on slippery surfaces, but they weren't THAT obnoxious overall. You also had Low Holds with such little recovery that they could be used to cut stuns (not necessarily suggesting to bring those back, but it's worth pointing it out as a contributing factor).
Explaining the Jumping states in detail can get really convoluted, but the gist of it is:
- the Jump flags displayed in the Skill Info window mostly apply to Throw/OH immunity, this is a common state
- there's another type of hidden flag I like to call Airborne which dictates whether you'll get floated by a Strike or not, this is a less common state
- when you mix them up these are the outcomes
When your character is visibly lifted off the ground, it's common to get "teleported back" to the ground by a Hi Counter Strike of the opponent. This is easily the most frustrating interaction.
By the way Ayane in this frame is NOT AIRBORNE YET.
Anti-air Lows are also common because Jumping doesn't grant Low Strike invincibility for the most part.
These issues have been plaguing the series since forever, at least DOA2 vanilla...
SOLUTION:
Jump states need a serious rework.
There's so much stuff to fix that theorycrafting without testing the changes to see how they feel is impossible, but I'll try:
- the Hi Counter modifier related to Jumping should disappear (this doesn't include of course the Hi Counter you get when you Throw a Jumping OH when it lands or you Strike a Jumping Throw etc.)... just follow the normal NH/CH/HC system rules
- Jumping and Airborne states should probably be unified into one (I believe that's how DOA1++ works)
- Low crushing should be made more consistent by applying two simple rules: 1. if you're Jumping you're immune to all Lows 2. except when you're Jumping due to being juggled of course (TN *thinks* this is already the case according to the tutorial, but it's a lie)
- the frames it takes for the Jumping status to kick in should probably be made more consistent across movesets, because right now they're all over the place (for example Tina 236K is F1 Jumping while Kasumi 7K is F12 Jumping, and Brad Wong 66P+K is F1 Airborne while Ayane 7P is F16 Airborne)
- now that all the previous rules made jumps much easier, when you get floated by a Strike you should probably be penalized harder with a higher launch that allows more combo potential (currently this juggle effect is way too convenient for the receiving side)
- as a second penalty, all Jump Attacks should become easily Free Step Dodgable (not a new rule, it's already in the game but it's not solid enough)
The universal Ground Strikes (8P+K/2P/2K) and the character-specific Ground Throws (2T) are solid enough already.
It's the Low and Medium Strikes with Ground Strike property that are iffy. Witnessing Zack do his signature mach kicks on a grounded opponent who does not even ukemi and STILL avoids them with invincibility looks jarring in a 3D fighter.
SOLUTION:
This is another big mechanic with so much room for experimentation, but here's my take: there's too much invincibility, we should use DOA4/DOAD as a base to rework the ground game and improve upon it.
- the main oki rule should work like this: from the moment you are able to ukemi but refuse to, your character should get no invincibility so Ground Strikes would hit you. This behavior is most similar to how DOA4 works, but they still forgot to remove invincibility from some animations there
- invincibility and Wake-Up Kick availability (no High WUK, no WUKs from ukemi, no WUK from backwards Wake Up) related to DOA6 Wake Up animations should stay unchanged
- undo the "1.19 ground system patch" that reduced animation variety by turning many different knockdown effects into the same one (there are better ways to fix the ground game)
- I believe much of the frustration behind waking up in DOA4 stems from the fact that it wasn't bufferable back then. Waking up ASAP after a hard knockdown used to require a frame perfect input; this has been fixed in DOA6, so it would feel better now in theory
- the type of invincibility of character-specific special Wake-Up Attacks should probably be standardized somehow. Sometimes a Ground Attack will hit normally (Lisa FUFT H+K), sometimes it's a juggle (Jann FUFT P+K), other times it's a whiff (Mila FDFA T)
- meaties should be fixed. Currently, the moment an active Strike touches an invincible hurtbox it stops being active for the rest of its frames. They should just let Strikes stay active instead, it would definitely add more depth to the game, and it would help with oki pressure in particular
- mayyybe but not necessarily, we could experiment with removing Force Techs entirely (except Bass pick up Throw) and instead change the damage modifier of Ground Attacks from 30% to something like 100%. Attacks would mainly just hurt instead of feeding into the "vortex" gameplay
I don't know the numbers, but in the new system it seems like the more Strikes you hit on a juggled opponent, the lower your re-launches AND damage get in the following hits (very noticeable if you use the same Strike repeatedly).
The old approach felt way more "organic".
With the old system, from my understanding the only thing stopping infinite juggles from existing was making sure the string you do on the lightest weight won't relaunch as high as when you first started it. The ONE TIME the devs didn't follow this directive we got the DOA3 Bass 6PK infinite on invisible walls (they probably thought they could get away with it because the string does push far away significantly, but invisible walls negate this). This is speculation, but the devs probably slapped gravity scaling to Solo in DOA5 because they got lazy or scared and no longer wanted to fine-tune the recovery/height of every single string in the game, which would cover their ass in case they failed to respect the aforementioned directive. Or maybe they did it to make the juggles of the VF characters that involve multiple jabs work.
Just for reference, Tekken 7 also has juggle scaling but it's horizontal instead of vertical, meaning that with each hit your opponent gets increasingly pushed away from you.
When I say "infinite juggles" I don't mean death combos, I mean juggle loops that you can repeat until the 30 hit combo cap. Slope combos don't count since they all end at some point so they're perfectly fine and logical. Infinite Air Throws like DOA5 Leon or DOA6 Diego don't count either since they're mostly unrelated to gravity. And obviously we must take out of the equation the FSDC bug that completely negates recovery lol.
If you're freaked out by what Ayane can do in DOA2U, don't be, because it's niche enough:
- this is THE single longest juggle of that game, and it's still shorter than the average DOA6 stage combo lol
- using Ayane who is the best character for the job
- vs the lightest weight
- on a specific section of a randomly selected multi-tiered stage
- and most importantly it's satisfying as hell. I've only pulled this off twice in a real match
With the new system we almost entirely lost the fun slope juggles, and that's sad, bring those back.
SOLUTION:
Undo the artificial gravity & damage scaling associated to juggle length in Solo, keep it for Tag just like DOA3/DOA2U.
More specifically, there are 2 parameters assigned to each character that when mixed up will result in 8 possible launcher heights for the same move landed in the same scenario. Not even Guilty Gear has these many weights, and the gaps between most weight classes are so negligible and inconsequential that one wonders why they even exist.
Some unification would probably help to make some combos more consistent, but it wouldn't solve everything because you still get edge cases where, due to unwanted slight hurtbox differences, for example you get a combo that works on Phase-4 but not on Kasumi (egg DZ 8KK), or another one that always works on Marie but only half the times on Honoka.
SOLUTION:
Maybe it's time to unify them.
Realistically people only really consider 3 groups: Light/Medium/Heavy, with additional easy to remember clearly different outliers as needed, like Tengu for Ultra Heavy and Alpha-152 for Ultra Light. This isn't oversimplification, this is merely "sanitizing" since launcher heights would STILL be incredibly varied even after such change.
The best way to explain this is with real examples:
- some single-direction moves, especially those involving an "Up" input tend to have way too much priority for no good reason. For example, if you block a Strike using 7 and want to retaliate with 5T, you have to release 7 for at least 6F, or else you'll still get 8T! And this is Hayabusa 741236K being registered as 7K
- specialized ground attacks in particular have so much priority that they can be used to create Option Selects
* Helena: knockdown -> 82P+K https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/oddballvalidbedbug-mobile.mp4
* Bass: 66P+K -> 42652T (High OH) or 253T (Low OH) https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/forthrightalienatedachillestang-mobile.mp4
* Jann Lee: knockdown -> 25K4K (if they stay grounded 2K stomp will come out, if they ukemi K4K will come out and is uninterruptible by Wake Up jabs. In case they block K4K the full string is K4KP so they have the fear of a follow-up too... it's pretty good)
- Holding a direction for a long time and then changing it at the last frame while simultaneously pressing the attack button will almost always give you the wrong attack tied to the previous direction
https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/thoroughwellgroomeddonkey-mobile.mp4
https://files.catbox.moe/hm5w7a.mp4
- universal inputs perform different moves on different characters (e.g. 4_S with Christie = Break Hold, 4_S with Hayate = Fatal Rush)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sA7p-6jtE4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGSZ4inWpM
- Jann Lee 35P+K = 2P
https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/equatorialunawarehamster-mobile.mp4
- diagonal Free Step buffer bug. Quickly buffering 48_ or 78_ at the end of recovery will still execute 7 (also 68_ or 98_ = 9). It doesn't block attacks. This also happens in DOA5
https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/rigidalarmedgnatcatcher-mobile.mp4
- pressing Kula 1H+K performs 5H+K rather than 2H+K
SOLUTION:
The input system needs a rework at this point. It needs to follow more consistent, universal character-independent rules.
I'll try to document only some of the weird and unpredictable quirks related to SOCD in DOA. Don't worry if you're confused, because the logic does make no sense which is proof that the devs completely ignored this aspect. This is tested on the PC version of DOA6:
- with a keyboard you have 2 sets of directional keys to play with: Arrow Keys or WASD. Arrow Keys represent the D-Pad, and WASD represents the Left Analog Stick
- while any WASD key is pressed, Arrow Keys are ignored during gameplay, but not inside menus
- in DOA5LR input history in training mode used to visibly glitch out with SOCD inputs, in DOA6 it doesn't spaz out as much but still hides the directions you're really pressing
- A+D = D. And I don't mean Forward, I mean D no matter the side you're on
- W+S = W. By itself, this is acceptable behavior because Up or Down are not side-dependent
- ←+→ = character stays idle standing up, but there's more going on. If you Tech Roll with ←+→HHHHH you will always perform a BACKWARDS Tech Roll no matter the side you're on. If you hold ←+→H+K with Kasumi, she'll perform 5H+K6. Hayate ←+→P=5P, but ←+→P+K=4P+K
- ↑+↓ = character stays idle standing up, but again there's more going on. Kasumi ↑+↓H=2H, ↑+↓P=2P, ↑+↓K=2K, but ↑+↓S=5S
SOLUTION:
Time to finally pick a SOCD standard to fix all this jank.
I'm fine with any sane solution, but if I were to express a preference, just copy the HitBox Arcade standard: Left+Right=Neutral, Up+Down=Up, and make the D-Pad override the Left Analog Stick (so that joypad users have the freedom to experiment with both).
I don't get it. Moving around feels worse. It's so slow it's almost comical. Nerfing this defensive option makes the game even more offensive, as if it wasn't enough already...
But that's not all: you can actually bypass the nerf by tapping 7HHHHHHHH. It's clunky, it's busywork, and it's faster enough that makes it slightly better than simply holding 7 even in the older DOA's (not worth the effort though)
SOLUTION:
Just undo it.
Return to the DOA5LR speed values that were perfectly fine. Don't force us to do weird inputs to bypass it when you could simply be holding 7 which is just saner behavior.
Side Step was first introduced in DOA5, it is done by pressing 2S/8S (with an optional follow-up attack) and it works by making you invincible to Strikes flagged as NO TRACKING.
Free Step was first introduced in DOA2, it's done by moving your character around, and to dodge attacks with it you need to "physically avoid" the hitbox of the opponent. A Free Step Dodge is mainly done by holding 2/8, but nothing stops you from using attacks that move you laterally to achieve it (like Gen Fu 236P). If you're still confused about what a FSD is, here's a clip.
The oddities of the "new" Side Step system are endless: the total animation length of 8S is 25 frames but only the first 20 frames have Side Step status, you can get hit during the remaining 5 by anything, even a NO TRACKING Strike and it will register as a CH. The criteria for a Strike to earn the TRACKING property is supposed to be "visually rotating Strikes", but in reality it's pretty arbitrary. The quirks don't stop here.
DOA5LR-SPECIFIC:
- most of the follow-up attacks are stuns. Wack
- you can choose 22/88 vs 2S/8S as your input, and the default is 22/88. Weird but you can always set it to the correct one manually
- you can cut the Side Step short with weird cancel timings
- the moment you started a Side Step follow-up you would lose the Side Step status. That feels bad
DOA6-SPECIFIC:
- all follow-up attacks are now knockbacks, which would be a slight improvement over the previous stuns if only they didn't cause wild 180 degrees wallsplat/DZ combo conversions. Also wack
- the Side Step status now lasts until the first active frame of the follow-up. As a result, in vanilla it got ridiculously abused as a free get off me tool. That also felt bad
- so what did they do to nerf it? A band-aid fix... they added a meter requirement to the Side Step Strike (WTF)
- AND as a further nerf they also made the Strike throwable, which kinda breaks the triangle system in a way (Throws beating Strike startup frames huh??)
- the Side Step status is invincible to Half Hit Lows for some reason (O_O)
The game with the strongest FSD has been DOA3.1 (JP), but even there it's too niche and unreliable.
SOLUTION:
I'm gonna be blunt here: delete Side Step, buff Free Step.
Having 2 half-assed systems for the same purpose is wack. We obviously can't get rid of Free Stepping in a 3D fighter, and we've lived without a status-based command Side Step for most of DOA's history, so the idea is not that far-fetched.
But let's get to the real reason: Free Step Dodging is so damn satisfying. It's organic. It is because you're *actually* dodging the incoming attack, completely different feeling than the game switching a flag from OFF to ON and letting you """dodge""" a move while it's visually piercing through your body (Side Step).
Here are my suggested changes to the alignment/Free Step system. Since the word TRACKING is used for Side Steps so I'll borrow the word ALIGNMENT:
1) misalignment should be caused by yourself to yourself. Meaning that my move shouldn't magically disable the opponent's ability to align to me. It may sound weird that I'm pointing this out, but it was the case with DOA3.1 Wall Wake-Ups, and with certain attacks in DOA5LR within 1m distance (e.g. Marie Rose 8P+K, Hayabusa 9P, Nyotengu 9P/9PP, Zack 66P+K, Leifang 6H+K)
2) these categories are exceptions that should not align to the opponent during startup: Jump, Charge, Hold/Sabaki, Projectile.
None of those were my ideas but they make perfect sense, the game already disables alignment during those states but only partially. For example in Jann 236K case, the Jump status only kicks in at frame 18, and that's when the move stops alignment... that move's frame data is 25(6)54, so there's not enough time to Free Step Dodge it. That move, along with all the other specified categories shouldn't align AT ALL FROM THE BEGINNING!
3) concerning Strike/Throw/OH startups not part of the previously mentioned exceptions, this is the most common and important scenario to consider. I feel these would make for some cool rules:
- the first startup of a string should always align (if it's a single-hit move with no follow-ups like Kasumi 8K, it should still align)
- if an attack of the string hits, the next attack startup of the string should align
- if an attack of the string whiffs, the next attack startup of the string should not align
4) the previously mentioned exceptions should actually align only on their 1st frames if they're the beginning of a string (or if they're single hit with no follow-ups). That's to avoid THIS phenomenon.
But for any subsequent follow-up of the string, they should have 0 alignment frames. This is to prevent Jump Attacks like Kula 9PK from absurd-looking realignments.
However, forcing alignment for some RARE cases that need it is acceptable, in particular character-specific lateral moves that cancel into attacks like Bayman 2P+KT and Christie 2P+KP, or teleport attacks like Hayabusa 2P+K8P (only for the 1st frame of the attack animation itself) even though they come from """strings"""
5) alignment during active frames: no changes needed. 1st frame = no alignment, hit = align from the next frame, whiff = no alignment on the next frame
6) alignment during recovery frames: no changes needed. Whiff = no alignment, hit = align. This prevents combos from going off-axis
7) the rest of the other minor pre-existing rules regarding alignment should stay as is
- 2 different alignment speeds; one for instant snapping in "1st frames" of some animations (e.g. Holds, H), and the other smoother slower one for the rest
- being BT with a move that was meant to be used when front-turned and viceversa should disable your own alignment, active frames (for this reason), and string input detection
- distance less than 0.25 m = no camera and characters alignment to prevent jerky movement in case of sudden side switches (e.g. "corpse hopping")
- blockstun animations = align
- etc.
As always the main focus is about shedding some light on some imperfect fighting mechanics that could be potentially improved upon.
INDEX
Code:
1. Extra hurtboxes and pushboxes
2. Bound into Close Hit combo system
3. Anti-timer scam
4. The many Danger Zones
5. Stun system
6. Jump system
7. Ground system
8. Juggle scaling
9. The many weight classes
10. Input priority system
11. Faulty SOCD
12. Free Step speed nerf
13. Side Step system1. Extra hurtboxes and pushboxes
Patch 1.15 added 5 new universal hurtboxes.
Patch 1.15 added 5 new universal hurtboxes.
As documented in the official changelog, 2 hands + 2 feet + 1 big pill:
Hurt box adjustments ①: Added hurt box so that the middle and lower hits will more easily follow the frame.
Note: The added hurt box does not apply to high strikes.
[...]
Hurt box adjustments ②: Added hurt boxes to the following body parts to match the visual representation of the characters:
- Fingertips (both hands): added new hit box.
- Toes (both feet): adjusted the hit box to match the foot size.
Note: The added hurt box does not apply to high strikes.
[...]
Hurt box adjustments ②: Added hurt boxes to the following body parts to match the visual representation of the characters:
- Fingertips (both hands): added new hit box.
- Toes (both feet): adjusted the hit box to match the foot size.
This is huge. Some of the consequences include:
- evasive attacks have been ruined completely. Classics like Leifang 1P, Ayane 4P, Hayabusa 3P+K, Kasumi 33P, Zack 33K etc. could be used to evade Medium Strikes, and that is no longer possible. Poor Brad Wong suffered the most from this change, since evasion was a major part of his gameplan
- due to the hands&feet hurtboxes, pokes in general have become more "stubby", meaning that most of the time your hurtbox reaches farther than your hitbox, sort of like what happened from SF4 to SF5
- since the new hands&feet are so disjointed, jarring "phantom hits" or "stray hits" are more common now
* https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/giftedfocusedislandcanary-mobile.mp4 (wouldn't have happened without the hands hurtboxes, CONFIRMED with modding)
* https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HideousFrequentBurro-mobile.mp4 (this weird stray hit interaction can still be reproduced in DOA5LR, but it's way harder there)
- this is not a global change, but some attacks that could be used to jump over the opponent have been limited to prevent it by increasing pushbox sizes. This is most likely a byproduct of the Bound into Close Hit combo system in an attempt to make those attacks not whiff, and that's a whole different can of worms
- this is a niche side effect that's not documented in the 1.15 changelog. Besides HIGHS not being able to hit the "big pill", there's another rule: you cannot hit the big pill of JUMPING opponents. But, since projectiles like Raidou 1P+K or Mai 236P (which is a High!) use a different collision system, they bypass the rule because the developers forgot
- there's another exception/inconsistency with the "can't hit the big pill if it's Jumping" rule: some Jumping types are ignored and you can hit them (specifically the unlisted Airborne frames):
SOLUTION:
Just undo it all.
Kill it with fire. Go back to the sane hitboxes we had in DOA5LR, or even better, DOA3 (afaik there's been a slight increase in global hurtbox size from DOA3 to DOA2U to "compensate for lag", but they both feel great).
2. Bound into Close Hit combo system
This is about the new
This is about the new
launch -> Bound -> Close Hit combo structure DOA6 has (for example Kasumi 7KP 236P).All it did was kill most of the combo variety, everything looks the same. That's it. DOA never needed this. Most of the time for most of the characters that combo route has simultaneously the best damage and the best wall carry, experimenting with anything else is suboptimal.
They even SACRIFICED some interesting Jumping moves that could be used to "corpse hop" by adding them huge pushboxes, all in the name of Bound into Close Hit just so they don't whiff against the Bound stun... which I don't understand because they could've simply increased the hurtboxes on the VICTIM of the Bound stun animation instead! To add insult to injury, for Lisa her Bound into 236P Close Hit is not even optimal, so the sacrifice was for nothing.
SOLUTION:
Just undo it.
The gimmick has ran its course, just remove the system for the next DOA.
3. Anti-timer scam
Throws, Holds, Break Blow and Danger Zone animations now deal damage after the time is up.
Throws, Holds, Break Blow and Danger Zone animations now deal damage after the time is up.
Real match examples:
https://clips.twitch.tv/PrettiestAmericanPineappleTBTacoRight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr4oWBy08PA
Such an arbitrary and frustrating mechanic when it happens. It bends the 2nd staple win condition of fighting games:
#1 deplete the opponent's health
#2 have more health than the opponent when the timer runs out
It's inconsistent for a multitude of reasons.
- Why not pause the timer for ALL Danger Zones?
- Why not pause it for Strikes too on hit? LEt mE finisH THE sTRinG!
- But let's arbitrarily pretend Strikes aren't worth it because they're not considered "cutscenes" or whatever that means. Throws and Holds that launch or put the opponent back-turned exist, they require follow-ups to deal proper damage, so why don't they also pause the timer for the whole guaranteed combo?
- "But ThrOws HAvE mUcH LOnGEr ANiMATiOns SO THEY neEd it!" First of all, don't use your longest attacks when you have no time left lmao. Sure they usually take more time than Strikes to deal damage in general, but it's easy to find Strikes where the opposite is true. For example (within the same character) Nyotengu 6T deals damage in 37 frames, and 4P+K takes up to 255 frames (64 frames with the shortest charge)
- Also, I'd argue they're not true cutscenes, because they can be interrupted with Throw breaks and coconuts. Checkmate.
SOLUTION:
Just undo it.
Return to the sane, flawless behavior any DOA had before. Allowing damage past timer 0 is lame spoonfeeding and inconsistent. Should've played better throughout the other 59 seconds!
4. The many Danger Zones
Stages have ramped up the number of interactable Danger Zone gimmicks dramatically.
Stages have ramped up the number of interactable Danger Zone gimmicks dramatically.
Wall break transitions - breakable boxes - explosive boxes - explosive walls - explosive bouncing walls - explosive floors - exploding bouncing floors - ropes - electrified ropes - citizen assists - ceilings - slippery floors... you name it. In DOA6 it feels like positioning yourself in the map is pointless, because no matter where you go, you WILL blow something up, now smile for the camera because it's combo video time. This also contributes to making the game more stun heavy.
- wall break transition triggers used to be more nuanced with stricter distance and alignment requirements. In DOA6 even just BARELY lightly touching a DZ will trigger it in full, and it can often look absurd
SIDE NOTE: in the following clip we can also see some finer attention to detail:
* in the 6 clip at at max distance, the animation of the victim looks bad because there's no space to be pushed backwards anymore
* in 6 all 3 fences just obliterate, while in 2U only the relevant wall breaks
* in 2U the DZ camera work is more dynamic and usually just looks better (less abrupt cuts)
* in the 6 clip the Kasumi is playing the "landing VFX" midair
* in 2U the side wallsplat creates a unique interaction where the wall does break but the transition doesn't occur and since the wall is now gone, that area has mutated into a different kind of DZ where you can instead fall down directly!
- this isn't strictly related to DZ, but respawn points have become less accurate. It feels like you have less agency over the match. Sometimes in the beach stage you end a round in the sand, and the next one you are teleported in the middle of the water (which has gameplay ramifications due to slip stuns). Unforgettable is even worse, you end the round at the edge of a DZ vault and the next round you're teleported inside
SOLUTION:
Can't really have a specific one, just guidelines. Stages need to use DZ's more sparingly, and they should restore the stricter alignment/distance requirements needed to trigger them so that they happen with less frequency and feel more special (alternatively, with more budget they could add different DZ effects for full/half/far wallsplats). They should take a page out of DOA2U's book which has the best stages in the series without having to put firecrackers all over the damn place.
5. Stun system
Starting from DOA4, stuns have become an even bigger part of the series.
Starting from DOA4, stuns have become an even bigger part of the series.
The developers achieved this in a few key ways:
- several Strikes that used to cause knockdowns have been turned into stuns
- in some other cases, a CH stun would push the opponent far enough to limit follow-ups
- the first hit of a stun no longer counts towards the max stun threshold
- in the old stun design, the threshold for Counter Hit was the same as Normal Hit. So a CH stun gave you even less combo opportunity than a NH one
SOLUTION:
Copy the old DOA3/DOA2U stun design (in my opinion the knockdowns also animate better and "feel stronger").
This is a major change, which should probably come with lower health defaults, but the smell radiated by DOA4 *STILL* lingers as of DOA6. Some attempts at reducing it have been made:
- DOA5 nerfed Wake-Up Kick stuns, reduced the penalty of getting hit during a backdash from HC to CH, made slip stuns less absurd, made the edges of cliffs no longer CH
- DOA6 removed Stagger Escape while simultaneously reducing stun duration across the board, and removed the "higher stun threshold = higher launch" mechanic
but we've been swimming in stun-heavy DOA's for so long many have forgotten or never even experienced how great DOA3 felt to play. How good it feels to NOT have to play the stun game for 95% of a match. Sure stuns were still long in 2U/3 especially on slippery surfaces, but they weren't THAT obnoxious overall. You also had Low Holds with such little recovery that they could be used to cut stuns (not necessarily suggesting to bring those back, but it's worth pointing it out as a contributing factor).
6. Jump system
The Jumping status of Jump Attacks can be deceptive.
The Jumping status of Jump Attacks can be deceptive.
Explaining the Jumping states in detail can get really convoluted, but the gist of it is:
- the Jump flags displayed in the Skill Info window mostly apply to Throw/OH immunity, this is a common state
- there's another type of hidden flag I like to call Airborne which dictates whether you'll get floated by a Strike or not, this is a less common state
- when you mix them up these are the outcomes
Code:
Jump ON + Airborne OFF = Hi Counter, will force Standing (e.g. some frames of Tina 4P+K)
Jump ON + Airborne ON = floated, immune to Close Hit, immune to regular Throws/OH's (e.g. getting juggled)
Jump OFF + Airborne ON = floated, vulnerable to Throws/OH's (e.g. Brad 66P+K from frame 1)When your character is visibly lifted off the ground, it's common to get "teleported back" to the ground by a Hi Counter Strike of the opponent. This is easily the most frustrating interaction.
By the way Ayane in this frame is NOT AIRBORNE YET.
Anti-air Lows are also common because Jumping doesn't grant Low Strike invincibility for the most part.
These issues have been plaguing the series since forever, at least DOA2 vanilla...
SOLUTION:
Jump states need a serious rework.
There's so much stuff to fix that theorycrafting without testing the changes to see how they feel is impossible, but I'll try:
- the Hi Counter modifier related to Jumping should disappear (this doesn't include of course the Hi Counter you get when you Throw a Jumping OH when it lands or you Strike a Jumping Throw etc.)... just follow the normal NH/CH/HC system rules
- Jumping and Airborne states should probably be unified into one (I believe that's how DOA1++ works)
- Low crushing should be made more consistent by applying two simple rules: 1. if you're Jumping you're immune to all Lows 2. except when you're Jumping due to being juggled of course (TN *thinks* this is already the case according to the tutorial, but it's a lie)
- the frames it takes for the Jumping status to kick in should probably be made more consistent across movesets, because right now they're all over the place (for example Tina 236K is F1 Jumping while Kasumi 7K is F12 Jumping, and Brad Wong 66P+K is F1 Airborne while Ayane 7P is F16 Airborne)
- now that all the previous rules made jumps much easier, when you get floated by a Strike you should probably be penalized harder with a higher launch that allows more combo potential (currently this juggle effect is way too convenient for the receiving side)
- as a second penalty, all Jump Attacks should become easily Free Step Dodgable (not a new rule, it's already in the game but it's not solid enough)
7. Ground system
The animations associated to landing on the ground have abundant amounts of invincibility.
The animations associated to landing on the ground have abundant amounts of invincibility.
The universal Ground Strikes (8P+K/2P/2K) and the character-specific Ground Throws (2T) are solid enough already.
It's the Low and Medium Strikes with Ground Strike property that are iffy. Witnessing Zack do his signature mach kicks on a grounded opponent who does not even ukemi and STILL avoids them with invincibility looks jarring in a 3D fighter.
SOLUTION:
This is another big mechanic with so much room for experimentation, but here's my take: there's too much invincibility, we should use DOA4/DOAD as a base to rework the ground game and improve upon it.
- the main oki rule should work like this: from the moment you are able to ukemi but refuse to, your character should get no invincibility so Ground Strikes would hit you. This behavior is most similar to how DOA4 works, but they still forgot to remove invincibility from some animations there
- invincibility and Wake-Up Kick availability (no High WUK, no WUKs from ukemi, no WUK from backwards Wake Up) related to DOA6 Wake Up animations should stay unchanged
- undo the "1.19 ground system patch" that reduced animation variety by turning many different knockdown effects into the same one (there are better ways to fix the ground game)
- I believe much of the frustration behind waking up in DOA4 stems from the fact that it wasn't bufferable back then. Waking up ASAP after a hard knockdown used to require a frame perfect input; this has been fixed in DOA6, so it would feel better now in theory
- the type of invincibility of character-specific special Wake-Up Attacks should probably be standardized somehow. Sometimes a Ground Attack will hit normally (Lisa FUFT H+K), sometimes it's a juggle (Jann FUFT P+K), other times it's a whiff (Mila FDFA T)
- meaties should be fixed. Currently, the moment an active Strike touches an invincible hurtbox it stops being active for the rest of its frames. They should just let Strikes stay active instead, it would definitely add more depth to the game, and it would help with oki pressure in particular
- mayyybe but not necessarily, we could experiment with removing Force Techs entirely (except Bass pick up Throw) and instead change the damage modifier of Ground Attacks from 30% to something like 100%. Attacks would mainly just hurt instead of feeding into the "vortex" gameplay
8. Juggle scaling
Old DOA games used to have gravity scaling only in Tag Mode, meaning that with each Tag Switch your Strikes would launch lower and lower, but starting from DOA5 some form of juggle gravity scaling applies to Solo Mode too. Starting from DOA6, juggle damage gets progressively scaled as well.
Old DOA games used to have gravity scaling only in Tag Mode, meaning that with each Tag Switch your Strikes would launch lower and lower, but starting from DOA5 some form of juggle gravity scaling applies to Solo Mode too. Starting from DOA6, juggle damage gets progressively scaled as well.
I don't know the numbers, but in the new system it seems like the more Strikes you hit on a juggled opponent, the lower your re-launches AND damage get in the following hits (very noticeable if you use the same Strike repeatedly).
The old approach felt way more "organic".
With the old system, from my understanding the only thing stopping infinite juggles from existing was making sure the string you do on the lightest weight won't relaunch as high as when you first started it. The ONE TIME the devs didn't follow this directive we got the DOA3 Bass 6PK infinite on invisible walls (they probably thought they could get away with it because the string does push far away significantly, but invisible walls negate this). This is speculation, but the devs probably slapped gravity scaling to Solo in DOA5 because they got lazy or scared and no longer wanted to fine-tune the recovery/height of every single string in the game, which would cover their ass in case they failed to respect the aforementioned directive. Or maybe they did it to make the juggles of the VF characters that involve multiple jabs work.
Just for reference, Tekken 7 also has juggle scaling but it's horizontal instead of vertical, meaning that with each hit your opponent gets increasingly pushed away from you.
When I say "infinite juggles" I don't mean death combos, I mean juggle loops that you can repeat until the 30 hit combo cap. Slope combos don't count since they all end at some point so they're perfectly fine and logical. Infinite Air Throws like DOA5 Leon or DOA6 Diego don't count either since they're mostly unrelated to gravity. And obviously we must take out of the equation the FSDC bug that completely negates recovery lol.
If you're freaked out by what Ayane can do in DOA2U, don't be, because it's niche enough:
- this is THE single longest juggle of that game, and it's still shorter than the average DOA6 stage combo lol
- using Ayane who is the best character for the job
- vs the lightest weight
- on a specific section of a randomly selected multi-tiered stage
- and most importantly it's satisfying as hell. I've only pulled this off twice in a real match
With the new system we almost entirely lost the fun slope juggles, and that's sad, bring those back.
SOLUTION:
Undo the artificial gravity & damage scaling associated to juggle length in Solo, keep it for Tag just like DOA3/DOA2U.
9. The many weight classes
8 possible character weights can affect your combos.
8 possible character weights can affect your combos.
More specifically, there are 2 parameters assigned to each character that when mixed up will result in 8 possible launcher heights for the same move landed in the same scenario. Not even Guilty Gear has these many weights, and the gaps between most weight classes are so negligible and inconsequential that one wonders why they even exist.
SOURCES:
https://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa6-moveset-bin-format-partial-how-to-mod-them.8918/
https://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa6-detailed-weight-classes.8396/
https://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa6-moveset-bin-format-partial-how-to-mod-them.8918/
https://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa6-detailed-weight-classes.8396/
char | charHeight | juggleMomentumMultiplier | sample height | sample frame advantage |
bass | 1.089000 | 0.940000 | 243.2090148925780 | +52 |
bayman | 1.089000 | 0.940000 | 243.2090148925780 | +52 |
rachel | 1.089000 | 0.940000 | 243.2090148925780 | +52 |
raidou | 1.089000 | 0.940000 | 243.2090148925780 | +52 |
raidou_boss | 1.089000 | 0.940000 | 243.2090148925780 | +52 |
raidou_prototype | 1.089000 | 0.940000 | 243.2090148925780 | +52 |
helena | 0.988000 | 1.000000 | 253.3481292724610 | +54 |
brad wong | 1.000000 | 1.000000 | 254.4101715087890 | +54 |
christie | 1.000000 | 1.000000 | 254.4101715087890 | +54 |
lisa | 1.000000 | 1.000000 | 254.4101715087890 | +54 |
nyotengu | 1.000000 | 1.000000 | 254.4101715087890 | +54 |
diego | 1.002000 | 1.000000 | 254.5871276855470 | +54 |
hayabusa | 1.002000 | 1.000000 | 254.5871276855470 | +54 |
hayate | 1.002000 | 1.000000 | 254.5871276855470 | +54 |
jann lee | 1.002000 | 1.000000 | 254.5871276855470 | +54 |
rig | 1.002000 | 1.000000 | 254.5871276855470 | +54 |
tina | 1.002000 | 1.000000 | 254.5871276855470 | +54 |
zack | 1.002000 | 1.000000 | 254.5871276855470 | +54 |
leifang | 0.962000 | 1.035000 | 262.6592407226560 | +56 |
ayane | 0.988000 | 1.035000 | 264.9602355957030 | +56 |
honoka | 0.988000 | 1.035000 | 264.9602355957030 | +56 |
kasumi | 0.988000 | 1.035000 | 264.9602355957030 | +56 |
mai | 0.988000 | 1.035000 | 264.9602355957030 | +56 |
marie rose | 0.988000 | 1.035000 | 264.9602355957030 | +56 |
momiji | 0.988000 | 1.035000 | 264.9602355957030 | +56 |
phase 4 | 0.988000 | 1.035000 | 264.9602355957030 | +56 |
tamaki | 0.988000 | 1.035000 | 264.9602355957030 | +56 |
eliot | 1.000000 | 1.035000 | 266.0222473144530 | +56 |
hitomi | 1.000000 | 1.035000 | 266.0222473144530 | +56 |
kokoro | 1.000000 | 1.035000 | 266.0222473144530 | +56 |
mila | 1.000000 | 1.035000 | 266.0222473144530 | +56 |
kula | 1.002000 | 1.035000 | 266.1992492675780 | +56 |
nico | 1.002000 | 1.035000 | 266.1992492675780 | +56 |
SOLUTION:
Maybe it's time to unify them.
Realistically people only really consider 3 groups: Light/Medium/Heavy, with additional easy to remember clearly different outliers as needed, like Tengu for Ultra Heavy and Alpha-152 for Ultra Light. This isn't oversimplification, this is merely "sanitizing" since launcher heights would STILL be incredibly varied even after such change.
10. Input priority system
There are several situations where your inputs can get mangled and give you the wrong move.
There are several situations where your inputs can get mangled and give you the wrong move.
The best way to explain this is with real examples:
- some single-direction moves, especially those involving an "Up" input tend to have way too much priority for no good reason. For example, if you block a Strike using 7 and want to retaliate with 5T, you have to release 7 for at least 6F, or else you'll still get 8T! And this is Hayabusa 741236K being registered as 7K
- specialized ground attacks in particular have so much priority that they can be used to create Option Selects
* Helena: knockdown -> 82P+K https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/oddballvalidbedbug-mobile.mp4
* Bass: 66P+K -> 42652T (High OH) or 253T (Low OH) https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/forthrightalienatedachillestang-mobile.mp4
* Jann Lee: knockdown -> 25K4K (if they stay grounded 2K stomp will come out, if they ukemi K4K will come out and is uninterruptible by Wake Up jabs. In case they block K4K the full string is K4KP so they have the fear of a follow-up too... it's pretty good)
- Holding a direction for a long time and then changing it at the last frame while simultaneously pressing the attack button will almost always give you the wrong attack tied to the previous direction
https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/thoroughwellgroomeddonkey-mobile.mp4
https://files.catbox.moe/hm5w7a.mp4
- universal inputs perform different moves on different characters (e.g. 4_S with Christie = Break Hold, 4_S with Hayate = Fatal Rush)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sA7p-6jtE4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGSZ4inWpM
- Jann Lee 35P+K = 2P
https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/equatorialunawarehamster-mobile.mp4
- diagonal Free Step buffer bug. Quickly buffering 48_ or 78_ at the end of recovery will still execute 7 (also 68_ or 98_ = 9). It doesn't block attacks. This also happens in DOA5
https://web.archive.org/web/0if_/https://thumbs.gfycat.com/rigidalarmedgnatcatcher-mobile.mp4
- pressing Kula 1H+K performs 5H+K rather than 2H+K
SOLUTION:
The input system needs a rework at this point. It needs to follow more consistent, universal character-independent rules.
11. Faulty SOCD
SOCD which stands for Simultaneous Opposite Cardinal Directions simply means "what happens when you press Left&Right or Up&Down at the same time?". Fighting games handle this scenario in many different ways, some good some bad, and DOA is part of the bad group. No real competitive advantage has been found, but it's still faulty behavior.
SOCD which stands for Simultaneous Opposite Cardinal Directions simply means "what happens when you press Left&Right or Up&Down at the same time?". Fighting games handle this scenario in many different ways, some good some bad, and DOA is part of the bad group. No real competitive advantage has been found, but it's still faulty behavior.
I'll try to document only some of the weird and unpredictable quirks related to SOCD in DOA. Don't worry if you're confused, because the logic does make no sense which is proof that the devs completely ignored this aspect. This is tested on the PC version of DOA6:
- with a keyboard you have 2 sets of directional keys to play with: Arrow Keys or WASD. Arrow Keys represent the D-Pad, and WASD represents the Left Analog Stick
- while any WASD key is pressed, Arrow Keys are ignored during gameplay, but not inside menus
- in DOA5LR input history in training mode used to visibly glitch out with SOCD inputs, in DOA6 it doesn't spaz out as much but still hides the directions you're really pressing
- A+D = D. And I don't mean Forward, I mean D no matter the side you're on
- W+S = W. By itself, this is acceptable behavior because Up or Down are not side-dependent
- ←+→ = character stays idle standing up, but there's more going on. If you Tech Roll with ←+→HHHHH you will always perform a BACKWARDS Tech Roll no matter the side you're on. If you hold ←+→H+K with Kasumi, she'll perform 5H+K6. Hayate ←+→P=5P, but ←+→P+K=4P+K
- ↑+↓ = character stays idle standing up, but again there's more going on. Kasumi ↑+↓H=2H, ↑+↓P=2P, ↑+↓K=2K, but ↑+↓S=5S
SOLUTION:
Time to finally pick a SOCD standard to fix all this jank.
I'm fine with any sane solution, but if I were to express a preference, just copy the HitBox Arcade standard: Left+Right=Neutral, Up+Down=Up, and make the D-Pad override the Left Analog Stick (so that joypad users have the freedom to experiment with both).
12. Free Step speed nerf
The Free Step movement speed has been slowed down dramatically for every character, specifically the diagonal backwards speeds (triggered with 7 and 1).
The Free Step movement speed has been slowed down dramatically for every character, specifically the diagonal backwards speeds (triggered with 7 and 1).
I don't get it. Moving around feels worse. It's so slow it's almost comical. Nerfing this defensive option makes the game even more offensive, as if it wasn't enough already...
But that's not all: you can actually bypass the nerf by tapping 7HHHHHHHH. It's clunky, it's busywork, and it's faster enough that makes it slightly better than simply holding 7 even in the older DOA's (not worth the effort though)
SOLUTION:
Just undo it.
Return to the DOA5LR speed values that were perfectly fine. Don't force us to do weird inputs to bypass it when you could simply be holding 7 which is just saner behavior.
13. Side Step system
DOA has 2 systems designated to avoiding attacks: Side Step and Free Step.
DOA has 2 systems designated to avoiding attacks: Side Step and Free Step.
Side Step was first introduced in DOA5, it is done by pressing 2S/8S (with an optional follow-up attack) and it works by making you invincible to Strikes flagged as NO TRACKING.
Free Step was first introduced in DOA2, it's done by moving your character around, and to dodge attacks with it you need to "physically avoid" the hitbox of the opponent. A Free Step Dodge is mainly done by holding 2/8, but nothing stops you from using attacks that move you laterally to achieve it (like Gen Fu 236P). If you're still confused about what a FSD is, here's a clip.
The oddities of the "new" Side Step system are endless: the total animation length of 8S is 25 frames but only the first 20 frames have Side Step status, you can get hit during the remaining 5 by anything, even a NO TRACKING Strike and it will register as a CH. The criteria for a Strike to earn the TRACKING property is supposed to be "visually rotating Strikes", but in reality it's pretty arbitrary. The quirks don't stop here.
DOA5LR-SPECIFIC:
- most of the follow-up attacks are stuns. Wack
- you can choose 22/88 vs 2S/8S as your input, and the default is 22/88. Weird but you can always set it to the correct one manually
- you can cut the Side Step short with weird cancel timings
- the moment you started a Side Step follow-up you would lose the Side Step status. That feels bad
DOA6-SPECIFIC:
- all follow-up attacks are now knockbacks, which would be a slight improvement over the previous stuns if only they didn't cause wild 180 degrees wallsplat/DZ combo conversions. Also wack
- the Side Step status now lasts until the first active frame of the follow-up. As a result, in vanilla it got ridiculously abused as a free get off me tool. That also felt bad
- so what did they do to nerf it? A band-aid fix... they added a meter requirement to the Side Step Strike (WTF)
- AND as a further nerf they also made the Strike throwable, which kinda breaks the triangle system in a way (Throws beating Strike startup frames huh??)
- the Side Step status is invincible to Half Hit Lows for some reason (O_O)
The game with the strongest FSD has been DOA3.1 (JP), but even there it's too niche and unreliable.
SOLUTION:
I'm gonna be blunt here: delete Side Step, buff Free Step.
Having 2 half-assed systems for the same purpose is wack. We obviously can't get rid of Free Stepping in a 3D fighter, and we've lived without a status-based command Side Step for most of DOA's history, so the idea is not that far-fetched.
But let's get to the real reason: Free Step Dodging is so damn satisfying. It's organic. It is because you're *actually* dodging the incoming attack, completely different feeling than the game switching a flag from OFF to ON and letting you """dodge""" a move while it's visually piercing through your body (Side Step).
Here are my suggested changes to the alignment/Free Step system. Since the word TRACKING is used for Side Steps so I'll borrow the word ALIGNMENT:
1) misalignment should be caused by yourself to yourself. Meaning that my move shouldn't magically disable the opponent's ability to align to me. It may sound weird that I'm pointing this out, but it was the case with DOA3.1 Wall Wake-Ups, and with certain attacks in DOA5LR within 1m distance (e.g. Marie Rose 8P+K, Hayabusa 9P, Nyotengu 9P/9PP, Zack 66P+K, Leifang 6H+K)
2) these categories are exceptions that should not align to the opponent during startup: Jump, Charge, Hold/Sabaki, Projectile.
None of those were my ideas but they make perfect sense, the game already disables alignment during those states but only partially. For example in Jann 236K case, the Jump status only kicks in at frame 18, and that's when the move stops alignment... that move's frame data is 25(6)54, so there's not enough time to Free Step Dodge it. That move, along with all the other specified categories shouldn't align AT ALL FROM THE BEGINNING!
3) concerning Strike/Throw/OH startups not part of the previously mentioned exceptions, this is the most common and important scenario to consider. I feel these would make for some cool rules:
- the first startup of a string should always align (if it's a single-hit move with no follow-ups like Kasumi 8K, it should still align)
- if an attack of the string hits, the next attack startup of the string should align
- if an attack of the string whiffs, the next attack startup of the string should not align
4) the previously mentioned exceptions should actually align only on their 1st frames if they're the beginning of a string (or if they're single hit with no follow-ups). That's to avoid THIS phenomenon.
But for any subsequent follow-up of the string, they should have 0 alignment frames. This is to prevent Jump Attacks like Kula 9PK from absurd-looking realignments.
However, forcing alignment for some RARE cases that need it is acceptable, in particular character-specific lateral moves that cancel into attacks like Bayman 2P+KT and Christie 2P+KP, or teleport attacks like Hayabusa 2P+K8P (only for the 1st frame of the attack animation itself) even though they come from """strings"""
5) alignment during active frames: no changes needed. 1st frame = no alignment, hit = align from the next frame, whiff = no alignment on the next frame
6) alignment during recovery frames: no changes needed. Whiff = no alignment, hit = align. This prevents combos from going off-axis
7) the rest of the other minor pre-existing rules regarding alignment should stay as is
- 2 different alignment speeds; one for instant snapping in "1st frames" of some animations (e.g. Holds, H), and the other smoother slower one for the rest
- being BT with a move that was meant to be used when front-turned and viceversa should disable your own alignment, active frames (for this reason), and string input detection
- distance less than 0.25 m = no camera and characters alignment to prevent jerky movement in case of sudden side switches (e.g. "corpse hopping")
- blockstun animations = align
- etc.
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