Holds in Critical State -- just get rid of the damn thing already?
- Thread starter Rikuto
- Start date
They might as well try something new (old) with the def holds parrying with frame advantage (15? 16?) where the opponent end up with his/her side to the player. Is there anything like VF side-guard in this game? Since there are no side-throws or holds, They'll only be subject to regular attacks and throws/holds.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Not side throws exactly.. I mean we've got backthrows, and a few characters like leifang have parries that put the opponent backturned to set that kind of thing up.
Not since DOA 4 has any of it actually worked of course, because they broke everything that was guaranteed and made turning around damn near instantaneous unless you're slow escaping. Yes you heard me right, they actually have moves in the game specifically to turn your opponent around at a large disadvantage, and then made it impossible to get anything off ANY of those moves.
The moves are still there to support it if they decide to fix that crap though. We had plenty of backturned setups in DOA 2 and 3.
Not since DOA 4 has any of it actually worked of course, because they broke everything that was guaranteed and made turning around damn near instantaneous unless you're slow escaping. Yes you heard me right, they actually have moves in the game specifically to turn your opponent around at a large disadvantage, and then made it impossible to get anything off ANY of those moves.
The moves are still there to support it if they decide to fix that crap though. We had plenty of backturned setups in DOA 2 and 3.
I'm fully aware of that, which is why I addressed them in my Bass thread. People keep saying that Bass' Charged hcf throw can potentially act as an instant kill weapon on stages with environment damage, but they forget that the chances of getting this sort of throw on anything is nil.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Your method would be no less frustrating than Arnells idea. I personally feel that there just needs to be specific stun animation or a type of heavy hit that causes a deep stun that creates that situation unholdable. You still have the hold in certain stuns, but now you have a visual queue saying "hey you can't hold out of this." I think that would remove the "wtf I held that" moment and would be less confusing for beginner players.
I know a lot of games have been jumping on this and some people don't like it but they could also potentially add a meter system maybe? This could remove counter spamming and people would likely think twice before throwing out things like low holds to get out of stuns, and missing a hold can still hurt if you were low on meter.
I along with Mr.Wah, VP and Rikuto have all personally spoken with Shimbori and I think we can all agree that ge genuinely cares about the game and our input, especially since he personally came to us for questions after seeing several of us playing DoA3. He's also personally replied to questions sent in by Mr. Wah. I'd say he actually does give a shit.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
No other fighter has a stun system like DoA's either. DoA isn't exactly the standard in fighting games. The way critical's work in DoA it would be a never ending loop of stuns if there was no hold in place. Removing the hold from stuns would require a complete rework of how stuns work and judging from the video we have...thats not going to happen. Do you really want holds to be completely removed with a stun system like doa4 in place? That would break the game entirely.
So no, I don't agree with completely removing the hold from stuns. What needs to be done is there needs to be specific stuns in specific situations that cannot be held, similar to how doa3 handled it. I'd personally also like to see specific animations for stuns that cannot be held similar to SF and its little bird/star stun. Again I think this would help beginners and hardcore alike to differentiate between a normal stun and a critical stun that potentially could not be held.
Again I also think a meter system would be a better implementation over straight up ripping the holds out of stuns.
Oh, really? What about Big Boss Man, Hayashi? Because he doesn't seem to be interested in anything other than Ninja Gaiden.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Shimbori is the head guy for DoA, so we mostly spoke to him. Hayashi pretty much always pointed us towards Shimbori when asked about DoA, so ya Hayashi is more concentrated on NG right now. But like most developments, there are different leaders for different projects.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I already said that the stun threshold needs to be slimmed down. This has to happen regardless of what they do with the hold system. Are people seriously that scared of the wall of text?
And no, it wouldn't be a never ending loop....
In other fighters when you are stunned, certain actions will either change the stun, launch, or break it. In DOA 4, you have a stun threshold that only allows you a certain amount of damage to take place before it breaks. It's roughly two and a half times larger than doa 3 and doa 2's. You have the universal ability to slow escape it too. How would it go on forever? That's impossible.
3.1 would not have required the hold system in-stun to work. Fact.
And that's pretty much what I'm asking for.
That guy has nothing to do with the decision making going on behind DOA as far as I can tell. When we asked him to talk about DOA, he pretty much threw Shimbori at us.
If he is responsible for anything at all, it would probably be the QTE crap that he seems to be externally pushing onto all of his games.
Arnell Long
Active Member
Putting QTE's in DOA5 could go very bad, makes me feel like I'm playing a Naruto or Dragon Ball Z game, which isn't bad, but not taken serious in most eyes of the competitive and although I'm in the middle of that, I would hate if Team Ninja fucks this up.
We've been wanting a DOA for yrs now, and some would say DOA4 was a waste, so these guys really need the help of this Community in order to mold DOA5 into the best possible fighter it can be.
We've been wanting a DOA for yrs now, and some would say DOA4 was a waste, so these guys really need the help of this Community in order to mold DOA5 into the best possible fighter it can be.
^^ Problem is that they don't know much about communicating with fighting game fans. They're just getting into the habit.
Isn't Shimbori the Producer and Hayashi the Director?
Isn't Shimbori the Producer and Hayashi the Director?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Nah, you got em backwards.
Seems to me the director has more active control over a project. Hayashi just dips his hand into every little thing a bit and puts people where they need to be. I imagine that anything too complicated for him to understand, like system changes, he just leaves to Shimbori without question.
But if Hayashi says "I don't see enough sparkly ponies, I want more sparkly ponies in the game", then Shimbori is obligated to find a way to put in sparkly ponies. I imagine this is what is happening with the QTE situation in NG3 and DOA5. He probably has some bizzare fascination with QTE and wants it in everything, regardless of how it effects the gameplay.
I don't think anyone wants DOA4's stun system. Ignore my angelic voice and take a look at this DOA++ walk-through of Jann Lee's moves: http://www.freestepdodge.com/media/doa-jann-lees-moveset.142/. See how few moves actually create a critical state? It's shocking coming from DOA4. It makes it seem like a critical state actually meant that this was a critical situation. What does a critical state mean in DOA4? Nothing.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Yes, DoA4's criticals were way overboard, but lets face it, we have had those stun animations since doa2 and I don't think those are going to change with doa5, which is why I feel completely removing the hold in that manner would not work in terms of DoA's system. I think there are better ways to handle this tool over just completely stripping them out in such a manner.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Such as leaving it in, and completely pissing off every fighting game enthusiast that tries the game?
It really is black and white. That is why there cannot be a compromise on this.
A normal fighting game fan can pick up tekken, then hop to street fighter, then hop to soul calibur. He'll play a bunch of stuff because while these games are different they have a certain respected standard of logic going on between them.
I can play DOA 4 if im not playing anything else. Right now, it's impossible for me. My mindset is in a completely different place, the game is just too alien and the logic is too fucked up to manage. It would literally hurt my peformance in other games to play it and vice versa. Yet I can still play those other games toghether, just not DOA. Things just don't work how they should in DOA. It makes me want to just throw my disc out because of how bad it feels to play it.
That's how most FGC people feel, too, and the reason it's so hard to get anybody to play it at GVN. The game feels bad when you compare it to anything else you'd be playing competitively. There is no way to jump into the mindset without living in it for a few weeks and ignoring everything else.
Is removing holds from stun absolutely required for it to be a viable competitive game? No, 3.1 proved their are work arounds.
Is removing holds from stun absolutely required for DOA to grow in popularity and become widely played in a tournament environment? Yes. No question about this at all.
DOA draws so many people in with its flare, and it would keep them if the counter system wasn't such a major turnoff. It would probably have the potential of beating out Tekken in popularity if the mechanics were allowed to simply be more solid. And its like ALMOST THERE! All you have to do is tweak the stuns, removing the bullshit CS holds, give proper frame advantage and tell Hayashi not to add retarded QTE to everything. Well a few more things like wakeup and sidestep, but yea.
These are such easy things to do when you have just a couple of people in the right place...
I'm not interested in playing another dead tournament game.
R4712-VR88
Active Member
Truth!
You know what? This is an actual front-page opinion article, unlike some of the other opinions on another, lesser site...
I don't understand one dad-gummed thing Rikuto said... but it sounds poetic.
Fuck the front page, it sounds like it belongs on a specific section on an old-school G4 Special Report, probably after two intermissions or some shit like that, smack-dab after talking about DOA4's life cycle. It would be titled "Team Ninja: The Past, The Now, The Future" and right there, Rikuto would be quoting this exact shit on camera, bleeps and all.
Fuck the front page, it sounds like it belongs on a specific section on an old-school G4 Special Report, probably after two intermissions or some shit like that, smack-dab after talking about DOA4's life cycle. It would be titled "Team Ninja: The Past, The Now, The Future" and right there, Rikuto would be quoting this exact shit on camera, bleeps and all.