Kokoro Changes in 5U

[Vincent Rayne]

So let me get this straight. Is it DOA4 status where it gives you the stun state but all follow ups are holdable? If thats the case then its somewhat a buff because that means you now have more starting options and you probably won't be forced to use a wall combo.

If they just decreased the advantage, well thats dumb.

what team ninja did to her overall was just dumb.

i rather have vanilla Kokoro back. and even then she wasn't all that good. if anything i'd love my DOA4 kokoro back. where she's actually a decent threat.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

So let me get this straight. Is it DOA4 status where it gives you the stun state but all follow ups are holdable? If thats the case then its somewhat a buff because that means you now have more starting options and you probably won't be forced to use a wall combo.

If they just decreased the advantage, well thats dumb.

1T followups being holdable is not a buff, any which way you look at it. Now there's no point to using it unless you feel like guessing. Yay!

 

[StrikerSashi]

It's still +20. I don't see how it's a buff in 'cause anything you can do now, you could have done before. The difference is that you can't go straight into a launcher for guaranteed damage without fear that they'll hold it.

 

[NightAntilli]

Jesus, they really nerfed her (finally found a copy today lol).

Her 44P sabaki can be countered out of with only her i7 grab being able to connect to punish (leaves her at +10).

8P6P is now -1, SDS nerfed too

236P+KP seems okay, but nothing special.

66P+KP+K on block is +3 (one positive, yay...)

Heichu P+K can still be countered out of.

236P and 4PPPP are now -10 on block (vs -7 in 5 I believe)

PK4K (and variants) seem really telegraphed now, same with PK2P.

HER 1T NO LONGER GUARANTEES ANYTHING <<< Biggest pile of crap

Heichu throw nerfed, also terrible.

So really, Alpha 152 might have to be my new main. Kokoro 5U seems to be close to DOA4 Kokoro guessing games. If it wasn't for BT P+K still offering a good SDS....

What else can be expected when people were screaming from the top of the world that Kokoro's damage was too high and that she was top tier? They nerfed her offense, and gave her a bit if defense since her defense indeed sucked, which is still not all that great despite the changes. Seems like Team Ninja listened, but they listened to the wrong people, or not well enough. Especially when she's still as linear, but whatever. I still have Leifang & Hitomi to work with, and I might replace Kokoro with Momiji, if she doesn't become overly popular. I'm not a big fan of using popular characters.

 

[TakedaZX]

1T followups being holdable is not a buff, any which way you look at it. Now there's no point to using it unless you feel like guessing. Yay!

As long as I'm not having to guess a parry, I'm solid on it. You didn't answer my question though, what are the circumstances of 1T at the moment. What's the advantage? What's hits? How many hits are left in the threshold after it?

 

[StrikerSashi]

You DO have to guess a parry. It used to be that you couldn't do a critical hold during it. Now you can, so everyone I've been playing is mashing mid kick hold (or advanced mid hold OS), so I've forced into doing 2T for minimal damage.

EDIT: You basically just enter stun game after 1T. It's essentially the same as hitting with NH 7P or something. It's still the same 20f as before, but you can hold during the stun from the throw. Assuming no hold, you can do stuff like 7K, 66P, or 9P, same as before (18f or faster). Except now they aren't guaranteed. Basically, you no longer have the option of just 1T 7K for guaranteed damage.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

Pretty much. Anything you could do with 1T in 5 you can do 5U. Except now they can hold the first hit. Making it DOA4 style.

Other findings :

PK4K variants only give +17 (was +21). Now she can't connect BT 4P/4K, so nerf there.

6KP stun no longer grants a non-SEable CB. They can now block it. Bogus.

So basically she's become more like DOA4. More guessing -_-

 

[TakedaZX]

You DO have to guess a parry. It used to be that you couldn't do a critical hold during it. Now you can, so everyone I've been playing is mashing mid kick hold (or advanced mid hold OS), so I've forced into doing 2T for minimal damage.

EDIT: You basically just enter stun game after 1T. It's essentially the same as hitting with NH 7P or something. It's still the same 20f as before, but you can hold during the stun from the throw. Assuming no hold, you can do stuff like 7K, 66P, or 9P, same as before (18f or faster). Except now they aren't guaranteed. Basically, you no longer have the option of just 1T 7K for guaranteed damage.

If its considered critical stun now, they can't parry you and before now they couldn't parry you for one reason, you were at a significant amount of disadvantage that wasn't considered a stun, meaning you can't hold period. Someone on PS3 invite me later and we'll break this down so that were both on the same page.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I don't know what you mean. In DoA5U, you CAN do a critical hold between Kokoro's 1T and 7K. That's basically the change.

EDIT: Was it a typo and you meant to say that "If it's considered a critical stun now, they CAN parry (critical hold) you?"

 

[FlamingMuffin]

You can't parry after her 1T, but you can hold. What's the issue here?

 

[StrikerSashi]

Characters like Leifang can also do 6464F and hold both mid pick and punch with their advance hold, which is pretty funny.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

Characters like Leifang can also do 6464F and hold both mid pick and punch with their advance hold, which is pretty funny.

You're confusing her advance holds and her parries. 3H will catch all mids. However she cannot be in critical state. Thus, she can't out of Kokoro's 1T.

 

[StrikerSashi]

No, it was a bug. Looks like they fixed it. You could do 6464F and do both her advance holds at once.

EDIT: Yeah, looks like it's gone with the day 0 patch. I remember some people with review versions reporting it.

 

[TakedaZX]

No, it was a bug. Looks like they fixed it. You could do 6464F and do both her advance holds at once.

EDIT: Yeah, looks like it's gone with the day 0 patch. I remember some people with review versions reporting it.

We weren't asking about her advance holds. Those are still "critical holds" at heart. Just because a glitch causes you to be able to hold two things at once does not make it a parry.

Only 9H and 3H are parries and when you want to use those, it must be out of critical state, which means no guessing "high, mid, or low" for you. It's not the 5 way guess (High, mid kick, mid punch, low, or throw).

According to FM's comment though, it seems that I was correct about 1T going to DOA4 status. Basically in the end this means you actually might quite possibly have the ability to get a good mix-up from it. I know, I know, guaranteed damage is easier than getting the frame advantage to start momentum and guess twice instead of 3/4 times... but here's the reality, she's still in it. 66P hits. 3K hits. 7K hits. Standing K might hit and extend... but hey whatever.

I appreciate the value of this change for what it is, its just it might require tweaks to be more valuable... and that tracking still needs work.

 

[StrikerSashi]

How is it even close to a buff, though? 66P, 6K, and 9P all stun on NH, so even in vanilla 5, she could go from 1T to stun game.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

You could always go for a mixup if you wanted to with the first move being free. Now, it's guessing all day, every day.

 

[Musourenka]

1T used to allow a guaranteed 66P+KP+K2P. It was 50 damage plus red stun. You could either 6KP for mini-launch or 8P/9P into un-SE-able CB/launch mix-up. Add in the wall combo opportunities if you just wanted pure damage, and 1T made Kokoro one of the best at low punishment in the game.

Now, it's pretty much 2T all day for low punishment.

 

[Musourenka]

Alright, now for a bit of good news.

I love 33P+K. Crouches from start to the first impact frame (so from 1f to 21f). It's an extremely effective high-crush because of that. Also, because it's crouching, you can nail people out of standing OH attempts with this (watch the spacing, because Kokoro can be standing HCOH'd on frame 22 onwards). The move isn't safe on block, but it's nice to have a very reliable high-crushing launcher. I didn't use it too much in Vanilla, so if the properties were the same back then, thank your various deities that Team Ninja didn't the move for Ultimate.

Simple combos after 33P+K. Note that 66P+KP+KP+K works in all situations except perhaps uphill slopes.

Normal Hit
Gummy Bears: 6KP, 2KP (56 damage)
Prismatic Butterflies: 66P+KP+KP+K (55 damage)
Shinobi of the Wind: 66P+KP+KP+K (55 damage)
MR. STRONG!: 66P+KP+KP+K (55 damage)

Counter Blow
Gummy Bears: 6KP, 9PP2KK (81 damage)
Prismatic Butterflies: 6KP, 2KP (71 damage)
Shinobi of the Wind: 6KP, 2KP (71 damage)
MR. STRONG!: 66P+KP+KP+K (69 damage)

Hi-Counter Blow (i.e. don't touch Kokoro)
Gummy Bears: 6KP, 9PP2KK (94 damage)
Prismatic Butterflies: 6KP, P2KP (90 damage)
Shinobi of the Wind: 6KP, 2KP (84 damage)
MR. STRONG!: 66P+KP+KP+K (82 damage)

 

[FlamingMuffin]

It was the same awesome move in vanilla aha. Love it.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

Yeah, I really can't find any effective way to play her so far. Her bounds aren't that useful (how often are you going to hit them with 236P on CH or the last P in 4PPPP?). 8P6P is no longer scary/neutral. Her BT stun game was nerfed to shit (now you can just SE and avoid 3/4 options). Heichu throw options were reduced, 1T gone, 33P NH gone. The only thing I have left is my 66P+K.

If these nerfs didn't majorly affect how you play her, I honestly question your Kokoro in 5.