Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I agree with all this. I also Like 66PK and 66P2K for closing in and from 1K. His fastest move that tracks is 4P but it's a high so it is crushable and interuptable if you try to use it too often during 2P pressure.
"My instincts lead me to victory." - The Ein tech and matchup thread
- Thread starter Tenryuga
- Start date
I agree with all this. I also Like 66PK and 66P2K for closing in and from 1K. His fastest move that tracks is 4P but it's a high so it is crushable and interuptable if you try to use it too often during 2P pressure.
Day 2:
I've just returned from a 3 days trip, but managed to play some today, and these are my discoveries:
Ein's 8K and 1KK bounce big unlike Hitomi's, thus you can follow with 66KKK for some good guaranteed damage.Also it is surprisingly easy to hit with, and you are relatively safe compared to other moves with the same damage potential.
214 K is a perfect "anti low kick and anti high attacks" in one. The initial kick will guard you (against highs), and the final one will strike the victim, at the same time everything happens above ground, and you are quite safe in almost every way unless you mistime it completely or are read out.
236 K is perfect to crush alphas or other characters that uses strings to get in close. It also leaves you at +1 and basically is the perfect approach skill if you are out of options.
236 K to P strings will beat out anything except high crushes.
Weaknesses. Still I feel that Ein is quite a weak characters, but has some good counters. He crushes Alphas (then again, everyone is still learning the game, so this may change) and other string characters. That said I'm having a hard time finding decent highs other than the basic P string though, where this guy seems even more mid-punch heavy than Hitomi, which is insane. Only good thing is that people doesn't seem to know yet and keep missing the holds because they look like highs. (Then again, so do I against other characters still, so it is a learning game for everyone.)
Also I have a hard time finding decent juggling combos. I'm far away to the +50% health that I've seen other characters do, even in Tag (with Hitomi). Actually I've seen close to 70% open plain juggles (Momiji and Rachel), which starts off from basic 1 hit launch (OP like crazy, or do we have something similar?).
Hopefully I'll discover more tomorrow. I'll continue to write my "dairy" here.
I've just returned from a 3 days trip, but managed to play some today, and these are my discoveries:
Ein's 8K and 1KK bounce big unlike Hitomi's, thus you can follow with 66KKK for some good guaranteed damage.Also it is surprisingly easy to hit with, and you are relatively safe compared to other moves with the same damage potential.
214 K is a perfect "anti low kick and anti high attacks" in one. The initial kick will guard you (against highs), and the final one will strike the victim, at the same time everything happens above ground, and you are quite safe in almost every way unless you mistime it completely or are read out.
236 K is perfect to crush alphas or other characters that uses strings to get in close. It also leaves you at +1 and basically is the perfect approach skill if you are out of options.
236 K to P strings will beat out anything except high crushes.
Weaknesses. Still I feel that Ein is quite a weak characters, but has some good counters. He crushes Alphas (then again, everyone is still learning the game, so this may change) and other string characters. That said I'm having a hard time finding decent highs other than the basic P string though, where this guy seems even more mid-punch heavy than Hitomi, which is insane. Only good thing is that people doesn't seem to know yet and keep missing the holds because they look like highs. (Then again, so do I against other characters still, so it is a learning game for everyone.)
Also I have a hard time finding decent juggling combos. I'm far away to the +50% health that I've seen other characters do, even in Tag (with Hitomi). Actually I've seen close to 70% open plain juggles (Momiji and Rachel), which starts off from basic 1 hit launch (OP like crazy, or do we have something similar?).
Hopefully I'll discover more tomorrow. I'll continue to write my "dairy" here.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Use Crouch while rising K, 3P, 33K,4H+K and 3KK as the primary launchers. Also use his 8P and KK bounds. You shouldn't be struggling to get damage with Ein as his juggles do great damage at any point in the threshold. If you need some ideas check out the juggle thread.
I haven't explored tag. All I know is that Ein's 1KP is a relauncher in that mode.
Anyone got a good list of "to the crit level 3" route?
Different alternatives would be appreciated.
I've tried 1KP for relaunching in tag. It does not even come close to that you see of Rachel and Momiji. Actually you might be even better of just doing the juggle in single mode. I've struggled to find any good juggle combos, but I guess those questions are not for this discussion.
All in all I feel like I've learned nothing about Ein today, but more about the opponents, especially the new ones. Ein's close combat seems weak, where frame traps and crushes seem very common against his moves. He does have a very good throw in 33T, but the 33 command is unreliable for the moment, and in tag you'd most likely use 66Tag rather than 33T anyways. That said, unless I get some revelation within the next days I might switch him for something else. He simply seems too easy to read, and his damage output doesn't seem close enough to justify his now slow nature.
Different alternatives would be appreciated.
I've tried 1KP for relaunching in tag. It does not even come close to that you see of Rachel and Momiji. Actually you might be even better of just doing the juggle in single mode. I've struggled to find any good juggle combos, but I guess those questions are not for this discussion.
All in all I feel like I've learned nothing about Ein today, but more about the opponents, especially the new ones. Ein's close combat seems weak, where frame traps and crushes seem very common against his moves. He does have a very good throw in 33T, but the 33 command is unreliable for the moment, and in tag you'd most likely use 66Tag rather than 33T anyways. That said, unless I get some revelation within the next days I might switch him for something else. He simply seems too easy to read, and his damage output doesn't seem close enough to justify his now slow nature.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Ein has to poke about 3 times to reach crit level 3. That's not an effective use of the character IMO because all you need for damage is crit level 1 / 2 (which requires either a counter hit stun for level 1 or two pokes for level 2) his 33T or 214T if you cannot do the 33T properly and a wall. That's how this character is played. You whiff punish and play footsies while knocking opponents back with juggles until you get to a wall or dangerzone where it is your chance to inflict serious damage without having to play the stun game. Ein is not HItomi and does not have alot of mixups. He is not a stun > mixup character either. If you try to forcibly play him that way you will get read by good players eventually due to his lack of mixups. If you want crit level 3 you would be better off doing a critical burst as early as possible or hoping 1K6PP doesn't get held after you stun an opponent to minimize the amount of chances you give the opponent to guess. Here are some ways to get to crit level 3.
Stun (CH 3P) > 3K > 3P > P
Stun > 1KP > PP
Stun > 1KP > 3P
Stun > 1KP > 3K
Stun > 6P > P > 3P
Stun > 6P > 3P > P
Stun > 6P > 3K > P
Stun > 66PP > P
Just experiment with his pokes / strings and see what mixups you can develop.
Please check the juggle thread and try out some of the juggles that have been listed. Anything under Critical level 2 for 33K and While rising K is over 108 points (over 100 on heavyweights) of damage whereas other characters are doing around 90-100 points of damage at that point in the threshold. If you need to see juggles firsthand check out Virtuatec's youtube channel and watch his Ein gameplay and also watch UprisingJC. These two have a solid handle on the character.
If you are near a wall you do not even need to extend the threshold. Just stun somebody once, choose from 46P, 236P, or 3KK and do the appropriate wall juggle ( 3P > 6KK for 46P / 236P and PP6PK for 3KK) and you will have done over 100 points of damage. I really have no idea how you are getting low damage from him unless you think over 100 points is low damage output for some reason in which case you might as well say the entire cast does low damage. Either that or you have no juggles beyond PP6PK and are using the wrong launchers (I told you his best launchers in a post above.) which is remedied by looking at the juggle thread.
As for his issue being crushed that is something I have noticed as well. There is not much you can do but take note of what they are crushing with and respond accordingly. If they use quick crushes like 2P you can shut that down by using PPP for knockback or PP2K for a safer option and counter hit stun. If they are using slow crushes 15 frames or more I would jab then free cancel and do 3P or 6K / 3K. His jab is -2 on block so 3P / 6K comes out in 15 frames and his 3K will come out at 16 frames. The first two will score a counter hit on any crush 15 frames or slower while 3K will deal with i16 or slower. The alternative to these tactics is to simply bait out the crush with PP and low hold because usually when people are trying to 2P or high crush out of his strings they are expecting PP6P which is pretty much the only string he has that's good for pressure aside from 1K6P.
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JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
Ein was NEVER! about playing the stun game over and over. He punchs STRAIGHT in your face
and that is what I like about him. Strikes and short but devastating juggle combos... Hell yeah!
and that is what I like about him. Strikes and short but devastating juggle combos... Hell yeah!
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Maybe so but this game is really about mixing up your opponent. He can't really play as well as he used too. Lacking 6P+K at 14i makes it hard to initiate with it. 4K being slow makes it hard to just link it off of things that aren't 3p, 6p, or p. In DOA4 it was a big deal because you were encouraged to hold out of stun a lot so that could extend the stuns for Ein. Now people aren't really encouraged to hold out of stun because slow escape can limit his options pretty well...Ein was NEVER! about playing the stun game over and over. He punchs STRAIGHT in your face
and that is what I like about him. Strikes and short but devastating juggle combos... Hell yeah!
I really think the speed increases will make things better for him as well as swapping his CBs.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Do you have psn? I want to see what you are doing because you keep saying he does horrible damage when his damage is on par with if not slightly better than Jann Lee's when it comes to launching. It would make it easier to exchange information and discuss things too. I've been looking for lab partners anyway.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Nigga... I have Ein.
Sure, just add my Crext ID, which is the one I train on.
Up for some tonight?
Edit: Also it is not "horrible", just bad compared to some other chars and the risk they avoid. Or that is my initial impression. We are only 3 days in, so that impression might change. As mentioned I didn't consider lvl 1 crit launches, and that might change a lot.
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JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
To be honest I still have to play DOA5U Ein, but in previous DOA games i could almost always play around the stun game. I shall find out soon if it is really that "bad" with Ein in DOA5.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Yea well the main things in 4 aren't really there so yea you'll see. (plus the mechanics are different but I already said this, we'll see though).
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I'll be available tomorrow so we can hit the lab then.
BolverkGTM
New Member
Alright, I was planning to do all the relevant frame data here, but as you'll see the list becomes very short as most of the moves are at very high frame disadvantage on block.
Made a mistake here. 33K is -13 on block, not -3. I almost flipped. "Launcher that's -3 on block?! I'm in!" lol
UprisingJC
Well-Known Member
BolverkGTM
New Member
I played a lot of matches today and let me say something. is an amazing thing. It's unsafe, but it's such an aggressive move that it makes people freeze up. I've grown to love using it to chase down people, even though I probably shouldn't.
I don't have much room to talk due to inexperience with DoA, but I think I have enough of a basis to say that is undoubtedly one of Ein's best moves. It's so fast and the range is so ridiculous. I have instilled a firm fear of that move into people's heads. I managed to run up and somebody desperately trying to bait it. That's how bad it got. So yeah, no doubts in my mind that is a need to know with Ein.
That's really all I can confidently say about Ein so far. I'm not 100% sure on the other things I've been doing with him yet. I'll be sure to post when I know for sure I'm not just frauding it up completely.
is an amazing thing. It's unsafe, but it's such an aggressive move that it makes people freeze up. I've grown to love using it to chase down people, even though I probably shouldn't. I don't have much room to talk due to inexperience with DoA, but I think I have enough of a basis to say that
is undoubtedly one of Ein's best moves. It's so fast and the range is so ridiculous. I have instilled a firm fear of that move into people's heads. I managed to run up and somebody desperately trying to bait it. That's how bad it got. So yeah, no doubts in my mind that is a need to know with Ein.That's really all I can confidently say about Ein so far. I'm not 100% sure on the other things I've been doing with him yet. I'll be sure to post when I know for sure I'm not just frauding it up completely.