Ryu Hayabusa: The Thinking Man's Super Ninja

[cip]

I always feel the most important thing is to adjust to your opponent. Try and understand what he does and doesn't do and counter act accordingly.

Other than that, there are fundamentals you need to abide by. Use the combos that do the most damage. Use moves that are safe on block (you mentioned good moves, sidestepping 66K is hard!), use fram traps (6KP, Ongyoin 8P), delay inputs, stuff like that. When in stun, don't blindly hold, throw out some (!) low holds, and slow escape.

DOA is really a game about reading your opponent and being hard to read yourself. There is no "one" gameplan in my opinion. People say Ryu is hard to play offensively, but it really depends on the quality of your opponent and whether he reads you right.

 

[coffeedad]

Slowly learning this game...

Read this thread and have a couple of questions about pseudo force techs.

I'm trying to implement Kakita's advice about doing 7k for a knock down, following them with 9 p, and then doing either 1p is they stay laying down or 6p/ izuna if they tech roll.

Every time that I do 1p my opponent just lays there, it doesn't force them to wake up. Can someone explain to me how pseudo force techs work in this game or point me to a thread explaining it? I know that it works somehow because people do it to me often

Having alot of fun with the game! Thanks!

 

[Jaguar360]

Slowly learning this game...

Read this thread and have a couple of questions about pseudo force techs.

I'm trying to implement Kakita's advice about doing 7k for a knock down, following them with 9 p, and then doing either 1p is they stay laying down or 6p/ izuna if they tech roll.

Every time that I do 1p my opponent just lays there, it doesn't force them to wake up. Can someone explain to me how pseudo force techs work in this game or point me to a thread explaining it? I know that it works somehow because people do it to me often

Having alot of fun with the game! Thanks!

Most force techs have been removed or made harder to do with DOA5U. This thread was made back when the original DOA5 was released.
Have fun with Hayabusa! If you need any help with him, this thread is helpful if you have a question.

 

[Tenryuga]

How does one go about fighting hayabusa when they are on even speed with him more or less. (10 / 13/ 13).

Is there a specific gameplan he follows? It's hard for me to grasp how to deal with him because every hayabusa uses different tools in different ways.

 

[Brute]

Like you said, everyone plays him different, so it's kind of hard to give generic advice. As far a equal speed goes, it really depends on the player and how they adapt to that. Honestly, I rarely see anyone of comparable speed not attack on match-start (if they do, they tend to get Izuna'd off the bat the following round). Thus, I boil down match-start options to these choices, and adapt accordingly:
1) High
2) Mid w/ poor mixups
3) Mid with good mixups
4) Mid with poor crushes
5) Low poke
6) Slower/ powerful attack
7) Kokoro
8) Slower than me
9) The rare "imma block or throw you" guy

In reference to a "gameplan," a Hayabusa player wants you to do one of two things:
1) Hesitate
2) Jump-the-gun
If you hesitate from block he can jump into his throws, and if you hesitate from stun he can go for the Shoho Izuna. If you jump the gun from block he can punish with the Shoho Izuna, and if you jump-the-gun from stun (ie: hold out of turn) he can jump into his throws. If a Ryu player discerns whether you lean towards jumping the gun or hesitating more often, he will utilize that to full effect if you cannot adapt.

The worst position Hayabusa can be in is one where there are a lot of options available to the opponent. Obviously this is true for everyone, but since Ryu doesn't blanket well, it's especially so for him. For example, Momiji can use 2H+K to beat out just about everything. If Ryu does the same, he will beat out very few things. Where most would go for a low hold if they anticipated a low attack, Ryu players are typically adding another dimension to that of whether it will be a punch or kick and whether to go for the expert hold or not. Thus, your best bet is to try and keep your options as open as possible and switch between them regularly. Whereas your fastest mid may be the logical choice in most situations, you may want to opt for something different, since Ryu players are typically trying to hyper-focus and anticipate every single move your are about to make to the letter.

 

[Juan The Man]

Alright I have a question is the expert hold any different from the normal one......I sometimes find myself unabla to expert

 

[Brute]

Alright I have a question is the expert hold any different from the normal one......I sometimes find myself unabla to expert

What do you mean, exactly?

 

[cip]

Alright I have a question is the expert hold any different from the normal one......I sometimes find myself unabla to expert

It used to be that way in DOA5. Ryu couldn't do his advanced mid kick hold while in stun for example. This is not the case in DOA5U, however.

Maybe you're just screwed up by the timing when using advanced holds, like I often am. For example, when playing A.I.-Hayate and I want to 64H one of his mid punches and want to do it on point to get a HiC Hold, the extra "6" screws up my timing a lot of the time.

You can test this out, though: Identify an opponents string you can't seem to advance hold, go to training and test if you truely can't. But afaik every thing that's holdable is also advanced holdable, although the input time window might be really small.

 

[Hajin']

Me again !

Really liked cip advice since I find it to be very true and close to what I had in mind. That being said I just keep getting beat hard by some players until I have way more knowledge about the game/the characters.

The matchs I manage to win are those I feel like a cheater, putting my opponent trough some gimmicks (stance 8P/8K on his wake up, etc.), I feel like I'm using some dirty tricks to win so I'm not learning anything.


Problem is, I'm still really lost in the middle of any fight. When I'm on the offensive I don't really know what to do since Hayabusa doesn't seem to have any solid guard opener. I mean ... I don't really like his lows (1K exists for what reason? Beside the occasional 1K~2 ch on water I don't see the point of that move) even tho I try to use 1P and 2K+H, often with no success (1P hits neutral or 2K+H gets stuff by faster moves/gets them too far after hit for a nitaku). I can't really press with blockstun + mids when I'm close since they're all really slow (66K, 214P, stance 8P, [4]P+K, etc.).
I found myself spamming 6P,3P or 1P in hope of a counter hit. Then it's either they hold mid/high and eat an Izuna or they don't and eat 6K,K (or a second 3P) + air throw. Let me tell you it's not THAT great of a strategy since it's kinda hard to get counter hit when you don't know the opponents character that well. I'm not taking into account people who mash buttons, since they're easy wins. If the guy is careful, it's really difficult to make him do mistakes to capitalize on.

When I'm on the defensive ... well I record replays to see what people spam with each characters but it's gonna take time and a lot of defeats to defend really well I guess. So I can't really enjoy Hayabusa's strong suit for now, which is defense and destroying the opponents offensive options.

Since I my offensive game plan is kinda weak (don't really know what to do) and so is my defense (which is totally normal for now, since I'm new to the game) ... it's not really a pleasant experience playing DOA. I mean I often don't have the momentum in my favor so I find myself defending the best I can with my growing knowledge. I know Hayabusa is not Kasumi but I'd love to be able to attack and deal damage sometimes. I mean beside the occasional counter hit/in stun mixup.
I'm trying Tina atm, she seems more " begginer friendly " but I really am a fan of Ryu Hayabusa (Love Ninja Gaiden !). I can't drop him for another character !

Sorry if I'm way too chatty, people seems to propose help on this topic but I don't want to annoy anyone.

 

[Brute]

When I'm on the offensive I don't really know what to do since Hayabusa doesn't seem to have any solid guard opener. I mean ... I don't really like his lows.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Hayabusa. You essentially have some of the worst string mix-ups in the game. People who just stand and block are very challenging since his guard breaks are pretty telegraphed, rarely guarantee anything, and he can't switch to low mix-ups to open people up. Of all 5 characters I play frequently, Ryu is easily one of the most difficult to use, and requires substantially more effort than the others. The trick is to pressure them into doing something stupid. 6KP helps. You can use 4K or 6PK4 and intentionally land them on guard, then switch between using the parry or using PP (or if you wanna be risky, the Shoho Izuna) to score counter or HiC hits. Hayabusa really requires that you read your opponent very precisely, very consistently. He's a rather hard one to pick up and use effectively, but that just makes it even cooler when you do.

Shame you're on xbox...

 

[cip]

So I can't really enjoy Hayabusa's strong suit for now, which is defense and destroying the opponents offensive options.

Well that is about the hardest thing to do in DOA imo. You not only need to have really good knowledge of the oppent's movelist, you need to have spot on reaction and good instincts/reads on your opponent. So doing that is really really hard. And I wouldn't say that defense is Hayabusa's strongest point actually. I find him rather well rounded in all aspects: offense/defense as well as strikes/throws/holds. But as Brute said, his lack of good mix-up strings, good lows and rather slow speed are his main weaknesses.

It too seems to me, that playing versus a really good opponent, Hayabusa's offense shouldn't be able to do anything. Just block high all the time, sidestep when Ryu is in Ongyoin, don't hold, punish all unsafes etc. But that's not how it works out in reality. I know all of Ryu's tricks, and still versus a good Hayabusa who keeps pressuring, I will mess up eventually. Mix in Ongyoin stuff, some WR T, some 8T, just test your opponent on whether he knows how to defend against all of that. If he doesn't, use that more. If he does, you have to mix in risky stuff. Ryu just doesn't have a low that leads into any sort of combo

I also like Ryu's groundgame: You can train your opponent to never ever do a wakeup kick, if you have the timing for 6KP down or if you use Ongyoin 6P/6T consistently. So they will either delay (3P+K, P+K madness!) or wake up without a kick and you can start pressuring.

 

[GodlyHades]

Onyigon probably has the best punish attacks for wake up kicks ever. I'm so good at reading my opponents wake up kicks its not even funny, and the teleport tele's for the mid kick also which is guaranteed damage for really strong combos if you know what to do next.

I had to stop doing 6KP its a really nice guardbreak but the higher players can counter it easily, they expect it always. But your right its a nice move to do for wake up kicks, I like the 9K myself also but the way I play is differently. I find it funny how Ryu even though he's slow can destroy opponents such as Christie, and Helena if played right. I've been focusing on my mind games, and different play styles with Ryu. He has alot of options with different moves but some people tend to focus on the same thing which leads to never getting better. Experiment is probably the best gameplan with Ryu, cause he's incredible in the right hands.

 

[Brute]

The most classic anti-wake-up bait: 7P P+K P P 360T

 

[Hajin']

I planned to play Tina today, to get better with her so I can learn the game at a better pace. But hey last second it was " **** it I'm playing Ryu " and only played him.

It was better, still pretty hard against good opponent but better. I'm still trying to embrace the " Hayabusa way of thinking/playing DOA ". From what I gathered today, with Hayabusa I'll have three " goals " :

1. Hold Izuna every punch I can/Throw Punish.
Well that's not for now I guess. Even the obvious punches I don't have the reflexes to special hold them. I'm having no trouble doing the Izuna part tho, just the special hold ! Gotta love the irony.
I'm starting to 6T more and more unsafe moves so it's a good thing.

2. Stun my opponent as often as I can.
I figured Hayabusa's mix up game, while people are " in-stunned ", is brutal !
Level 1 launcher to air throw is like a low risk/medium reward kinda deal. The damage is pretty good !
Other than that, people have to fear the Izuna throw or the 46T, 6P reset throw, but at the same time cannot let Hayabusa get his CB~4, P+K,P,P,360T. Every time I stun someone it's like christmas to me. Too bad it's kinda hard to achieve without a good read for a CH.

3. Make people hesitate/freeze.
When it happens, I have room to breath and can finally apply some pressure with my slow ass + on block mids. I guess that's what people call " to have the momentum ". It's not only for Ryu since it's good for every character, should be a goal for everyone.

So far 1. is like 10% of my damage output. I have to recognize unsafe move and then punish fast enough otherwise people online mash P,P,P,P,... and I get countered. Hold Izuna ... must have done it like 2 times. Don't know if I must practice this now or should I get better with the basics first.
I had a lot more success with 1P CH today ! I guess it goes with 1. since you throw this bad boy if you expect a high ! I heard Hayabusa has a lot of high crushing move (wr4K, 1P, 2P, 3P, 33P, 3P+K, 4K, and I don't remember any other) but 1P seems to be the most useful since it does crush highs very early in its start up frames. Nobody ever done a topic " Match up "? Would be cool to know what string I can crush, what move to punish etc.

I've been testing 9K and it looks like it stuns on normal hit (rare thing for Hayabusa I suppose), worked pretty well for me. It's unsafe but nobody seems to punish Hayabusa for now. I NEED those in stun mix up, that's my strong card for the moment.
Aaaaanyway I'm writing yet another wall of text but I guess it all comes down to this simple fact : Hayabusa is a character for good, knowledgeable DOA players. Starting with him just sets you up for some good pain and suffering. For now I'm just happy people don't know how to punish Ryu well, but it still gets really hard against a good player.
Guess I'll get stronger with more knowledge.

 

[Nameless Sama]

1.Remember everybodys GOAL is here to make Izunas in every matches to make epic endings bro IMO. You know if you make the Izunas you feel better for some reason. Its like " Gotcha Bitch and now you will die " bäm in the head " Try to make 10 Izunas in a real match with 3 or more round You will feel better trust me, Know also taht the way of the Izunas is a really long and a harsh one.

2. Learn how you make the CB sets ! Try to make CB everytime you get the chance. If you notice that your opponent doesnt make Mid Punch counter or always make low holds then punish them with CB. Very Good Players are making Stagger Escape to reduce the time of the stun. You should learn to make guarantee sit tun set ups. Ok Sit stun + guarantee set up would work but notice that the opponent can counter continuative attacks after you make the first guarantee move. First you hsould learn these. After you mastered them then you can make very good launcher combos with including stage combos ! On PS3 I am not so good but in Xbox Live I am better in PS3. I dont miss nothing. At my first time I made so as I said and then I went to the Launcher + Stage Combos with very critical stun set ups.

3. Its hard agaisnt people who are really quite in every situations. You can hesitate/freeze your enemy easy when you are really dominant. That happens often by good players who think they are good but if you show him who´s boss and prevent him so many times then you have him/her. You would raise your chance of freezing the opponent when you definsive are good I mean you if you dont let you to hit you so easy.

Offensive is good but not all definsive is very important too. 9K is good I make it too but if someone blocks the 9K you are screwed.

If your soul is inperfect life is difficult !

 

[Brute]

1.Remember everybodys GOAL is here to make Izunas in every matches to make epic endings bro IMO. You know if you make the Izunas you feel better for some reason. Its like " Gotcha Bitch and now you will die " bäm in the head " Try to make 10 Izunas in a real match with 3 or more round You will feel better trust me, Know also taht the way of the Izunas is a really long and a harsh one.

We didn't choose The Izuna Life.
The Izuna Life chose us.

 

[Hajin']

We didn't choose The Izuna Life.
The Izuna Life chose us.

True dat !

My mind is like a never ending pit of questions, I feel like I'm harassing you guys hahaha SORRY !

1. First about the high crushs.
At what frame they start evading?
The fastest I found was 1P for highs and 9K for lows. I was wondering if someone knows a list, from fastest to slowest. I'm not talking about start up frames, just which is the fastest to evade. 214K seems pretty fast too.
So I can try and destroy all those strings people just mash on my guard.

2. Is it normal every character has a lot of move you can't do **** about?
To be more precise, they start a string mid screen, whiffing every move. I go and try to whiff punish and I get stuffed by the follow ups EVERY TIME. Like 100%. Is whiff punish even possible in this game? If he starts mashing a string so it ends up on block what can I do? It's EXTREMELY annoying. Even more annoying are the moves used as gap closer like Tina throwing her ass at you (66P+K iirc) or Momiji spamming a 66P,P. The later I punish accordingly (I think I can 214T but never remember it, so I 6T), but when I try to move I get stuffed 100%.
And when I try to do the same? I get hit every time. 214P or 9K (even 3K+H of Mila) get ch every time. It's like the hit box only appears at i500 and active frames are 1. Only move I can think of who got this " magic attribute " is the torpedo (Ongyoin 6P+K) since it got like 10 active frame or some crazy amount. (note to self : Gotta try the kick tho, since it's safe at max range.) Anyway I was wondering if there's something I don't know or do wrong, because it's killing my patience and Hayabusa needs that **** to work well.

3. How can you do wr4K consistently? Is there a trick? This move is a bitch to pull out !
When I do 214K it, somehow, works well but never in combo or when I really need it. I feel like I really NEED that move in my ninja arsenal. When I do 1K instead I want to throw my arcade stick at someone.
In the same way, is the OH wr4T really usefull? Does it eat strikes really well? I'll try 1P on normal hit (-4?) and see if I can OH the cpu's move after but in the meantime I'd love to know if it's really useful or just another lame move.

4. 46T seems like a good opener, especially in ch when it gives +17 !!
I tried 3P and the cpu got that weird back turned stun kinda like Lei Fang stuff after a parry. Is there any really interesting options? Or should I stick to my 120 damage Izuna Otoshi and not reset the in stun?
I do use it on " normal hit " on people who guard a lot, but is 6P really free after? Tried on practice and seems so, but I'd rather be sure. If so that's a precious technique, Hayabusa doesn't have many in stun without ch.

5. Is K+H,K,K_P any good?
It covers some distance and tracks so I wondered. It seems to have some sort of blockstun + but Hayabusa fall on his ass just after. So it's just safe?

6. What use are jabs?
I've been forced to use them since people are mashing like a final stage Parkinson monkeys these days. I've had some success with P,K,K tho unsafe (nobody ever punish) it's a good " stfu and respect my ninjaness " move.
But other than that risky thing that good player will kill me for, does he have good jab strings? P,P,4P~follow up??

That's all I can find at the top of my head. And btw thank you SO MUCH for all those great answers. I don't want you to feel ignored because I spam questions like an annoying kid, those advices made my Ryu stronger and more patient. I really got a good feel of the mindset of a super ninja because of you guys. That new way of thinking made my dragon blade sharper ! So yeah ... thanks

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

My advice is to barely ever raw 214P, most good players will hold or block and punish same goes for 9K only do that move if you're feeling risky or to counter lows which you can then follow up into WR4K into air grab or WRH+K. besides raw 214P doesn't track, however WR4KP does.

As for the WR4K stuff I hear you. I rarely get it when I want it raw I can only get it from jumping and lows.
doesn't always work(especially since I have 22/88 as sidestep so I accidentally SS) and works even less, you can get it by but I have yet to try that in an actual match. (however works wonders with Ein's WRK) but your best bet to get it every time is from 9K, 9P(and all moves that transition into 9P), 1P, WRH+K and 2H+K.

I have also found a few decent CBs however, they don't seem too reliable and most just mid hold the CB but if they don't you can get some decent damage.

But a couple of my favourites are:
CB4 Ong.
CB4 Ong. (this particular one does 136 damage or 150+ with PB, I also tested this with stagger on fastest so if you can hit the 4H+K you're golden)

 

[Brute]

snip

1. Depends on the move. Those are two of the fastest crushes, yeah. Kinda sucks because 9K doesn't provide nearly the damage I want, so rather than try to crush lows, I just opt to hold them (Izuna hold if punch because... well, becuase it's an Izuna. why not?)

2. Well, that's definitely hurt online, but yeah, it does also depend on the character. People like Hitomi are especially annoying due to how long they can delay follow-up attacks in strings. Then there's Hayate... anyway, in general, until you learn strings very specifically, use attacks like ongyoin 6P+K to punish whiffs, since it covers good distance, is pretty fast, does good damage, and crushes most highs and lows.

3. I actually do it by hitting 3 then immediately 4 without rolling it. Never hit the "2" and "1" directions. Keep in mind that some moves leave you in crouching status after doing them, so if you just did one of those, you only need to hit 4K to get the handstand (if you want the normal 4K, tough shit. you gotta delay). Lag spikes will sometimes mess it up, but the same can be said for most moves.
As far as the OH goes, I guess MASTER and a few others have found a way to implement it into their gameplan, but no, I find it pretty useless. Very slow, low damage, not incredibly evasive and if you're looking to utilize it's high crush capabilities, you're better off just using the Shoho Izuna.

4. Is 6P guaranteed after 46T? No. Not on normal hit, anyway. 6P is 13 frames, you get +10. Add to that some people's BT lows are mid crushes and you're in a rather annoying spot. On HiC you can get some more damage, but unless some people have found some tech I haven't you're not getting 120+ guaranteed damage from the move, even on HiC. Thus, I stay stick with the Izuna Otoshi.

5. Is H+KKP/PPKKP useful? Not really. No.

6. As far as the jab string goes, they nerfred PP4PK unfortunately, as in vanilla that was his best attack string. Now it's virtually useless. If you're using jabs to deter people from constantly mashing out attacks, keep in mind that some (Ayane, Christie, and many others who like to attack from disadvantage and get away with it) are crushing highs 99% of the time. Thus, I'd go with a mid like 6P, 6K, or WR4K. But if you are using the jabs, on CH PP4P2P causes a trip. But if they're not using high crushes anyway, I'd go with PP6P. That gives you an uppercut stun on hit (deepest stun in the game), gives you an optional ongyoin stance transition, and is safe. PPPK has similar benefits, but it does rely on a mid punch and on hit it sends the opponent flying rather than putting them in the useful deep stun.

As far as CB combos go, these are my 3rd and 4th most used, respectively. These work on NH or CH.


This only works on NH and is not efficient due to the poor mix-ups/initiator, but it is his highest damage CB set-up I could find on on NH (70 damage at burst):

You can see it below in this video. Demonstrates how dumb, but powerful, it is.

 

[CyberEvil]

H+KKKP is useful only when trying to avoid a wallsplat (like trying to avoid knocking someone off of a level tier with a ceiling). That's the only practical application I've found.