So Im gunna go out on a limb here

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
I still think DOA4 had potential to be the best game in the series.

I agree the lack of any guaranteed damage was trash.

I agree holds (especially low) were too powerful.

Offensive holds being given to every cast member was buns...

But I think after fixing those factors the most cancerous thing was that 80% of the cast couldn't thrive aside from the ninjas.

I don't think that guessing is a huge issue. Frankly the lack of guessing really made the DOA5 dry for me.

Stun launch became relevant for most everyone in 5 which was good in my opinion. You actually had options while in 4, Zack really had nothing to utilize. He had no mid launchers that actually gave him good options, even at max threshold.

Now he has some of the strongest stun launch options in the game let alone post critical burst or high threshold options.

His moveset didn't change much. They just made his tools relevant.

Compare him to Hayabusa or Hayate who had a huge repertoire of launchers that could be used at any point and the game just became easy.

9K was a relevant launcher post wall bounce because you had one more guess to make if you just wanted to cash in on your damage immediately while having the opponent have to determine if you would do that or switch them up with 4KK (4K6K in DOA5) to get even more damage.

Nowadays its the same 3 stale combos like Tekken. (PP6PK life).

Now thats fine if its just for a more consistent oki set up but idk.

DOA5 is just always stale for me. Always has been.

Randomness can be an issue but... I think they went too far with DOA5 and I honestly fear for DOA6 as well.

Also crushing is so irrelevant now its almost annoying.

I miss when Ryu 33P and 3P+K would crush a mid 6P like Hayates.

We didnt have a mid button to beat his 6P. It just went under our jab. So for a harder read we could crush his quicker options and force different play out of him and vice versa.

There's other problems that really matter much more than not getting a sitdown into a launcher. Like this isnt street fighter 5 so why is a back dash counter hit in a 3D fighter. We may run on the VF engine but this isn't VF. Shit thats part of why SCV died so early.

Tekken has back dash block... we talk about how DOA is so offense heavy but the defensive options are steadily being decreased. Holds are the right aspect to change as they actually yield great damage for a good or random read but if movement wasn't such a scary thing to utilize in scrambles maybe that wouldn't matter as much.

I mean I'm ranting but I can't figure out how people can be content with such a stale game.

Oh wait. Tits and Asses. Right.

Just tell me what yall think about it.
 

ryu_highabusa

Well-Known Member
I don't know why we couldn't have had tried to a civil discussion in the other thread like this. I know that one person was ranting and raving but I would have liked to hear their reasoning, just civilly. I was just countering their points (lol) because I felt what they said was inaccurate, not cause I hate DOA4 and think no one else should be allowed to enjoy it. Did anyone even mention DOA 3 or 4 before them? Like, I'm still not sure if that was a troll or someone completely ignorant on the mechanics or how the discussion started.

Frankly the lack of guessing really made the DOA5 dry for me.
Play randoms online? They mash out whatever and there's little predictability.

I mean I'm ranting but I can't figure out how people can be content with such a stale game.
Firstly, I'm not content with 5 but what's so thrilling about the non-stop rock-paper-scissors of 4? Personally, it's mentally exhausting.
 

MasterHavik

Well-Known Member
I still think DOA4 had potential to be the best game in the series.

I agree the lack of any guaranteed damage was trash.

I agree holds (especially low) were too powerful.

Offensive holds being given to every cast member was buns...

But I think after fixing those factors the most cancerous thing was that 80% of the cast couldn't thrive aside from the ninjas.

I don't think that guessing is a huge issue. Frankly the lack of guessing really made the DOA5 dry for me.

Stun launch became relevant for most everyone in 5 which was good in my opinion. You actually had options while in 4, Zack really had nothing to utilize. He had no mid launchers that actually gave him good options, even at max threshold.

Now he has some of the strongest stun launch options in the game let alone post critical burst or high threshold options.

His moveset didn't change much. They just made his tools relevant.

Compare him to Hayabusa or Hayate who had a huge repertoire of launchers that could be used at any point and the game just became easy.

9K was a relevant launcher post wall bounce because you had one more guess to make if you just wanted to cash in on your damage immediately while having the opponent have to determine if you would do that or switch them up with 4KK (4K6K in DOA5) to get even more damage.

Nowadays its the same 3 stale combos like Tekken. (PP6PK life).

Now thats fine if its just for a more consistent oki set up but idk.

DOA5 is just always stale for me. Always has been.

Randomness can be an issue but... I think they went too far with DOA5 and I honestly fear for DOA6 as well.

Also crushing is so irrelevant now its almost annoying.

I miss when Ryu 33P and 3P+K would crush a mid 6P like Hayates.

We didnt have a mid button to beat his 6P. It just went under our jab. So for a harder read we could crush his quicker options and force different play out of him and vice versa.

There's other problems that really matter much more than not getting a sitdown into a launcher. Like this isnt street fighter 5 so why is a back dash counter hit in a 3D fighter. We may run on the VF engine but this isn't VF. Shit thats part of why SCV died so early.

Tekken has back dash block... we talk about how DOA is so offense heavy but the defensive options are steadily being decreased. Holds are the right aspect to change as they actually yield great damage for a good or random read but if movement wasn't such a scary thing to utilize in scrambles maybe that wouldn't matter as much.

I mean I'm ranting but I can't figure out how people can be content with such a stale game.

Oh wait. Tits and Asses. Right.

Just tell me what yall think about it.
4 had the speed and the graphics to be great. But outside that you're right. Also yeah pretty much msot of the cast was worthless vs. ninjas and Genfu. Zack actually was a bad character despite that as he did well agaisnt the rest of the characters. Now you are right that Zack now has some of the stun launch in the game and is he hard to get off. I'm proud of it.(I' ma Zack main). Great post overall man.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
I don't know why we couldn't have had tried to a civil discussion in the other thread like this. I know that one person was ranting and raving but I would have liked to hear their reasoning, just civilly. I was just countering their points (lol) because I felt what they said was inaccurate, not cause I hate DOA4 and think no one else should be allowed to enjoy it. Did anyone even mention DOA 3 or 4 before them? Like, I'm still not sure if that was a troll or someone completely ignorant on the mechanics or how the discussion started.


Play randoms online? They mash out whatever and there's little predictability.


Firstly, I'm not content with 5 but what's so thrilling about the non-stop rock-paper-scissors of 4? Personally, it's mentally exhausting.
Maybe it's just me. I liked the guessing cause it kept things fresh. But I agree that the guessing needed to be toned down and some guaranteed damage was warranted and I think they took the right step in DOA5 towards it.

I don't think DOA4 was ok just to make that clear. But while I think DOA5 handled the system better, it made the game get stale fast.

I just think it needs to be toned back a bit and actually its been confirmed that they're doing that.

So with wall damage for example, DOA5 wall splats into a juggle state still exist. But in cases of danger zones that push the opponent back like the crowd pushing them back or ropes pushing the opponent back... it's a guess now, or maybe ropes always gave a guess in 5. I don't remember at this point.

I liked that because you would never see the same launcher over and over again and it made more launches valid.

It's cool to see them impliment it. What it means is more potential damage and unique options utilizing the wall.

As for the stun game, I'll admit my bias. I don't think guaranteed damage options are bad but Im salted that Hayate lost his DOA4 sit down stun on 3K. In DOA5 I could how it would be too powerful for a 14i mid kick.

The DOA4 version basically performed like a lift stun as it gave huge frame advantage and forced the opponent to wait a bit before being able to hold.

It also looked cool and for most unseeable launch options required you to make a dash forward to make up for the distance which I found a likable addition for such a low execution game.

I'd like for certain moves to just be considered a critical stun with maybe some sort of effect that differentiates if it's an actual stun that guarantees damage or just explains it in the move list.

Limiting stuns because we want guaranteed damage kinda sucks.
 

PhoenixVFIRE

Well-Known Member
I agree with your points, but for me, DOA5 was just DOA4 with better shit. It didn't get stale for me, I like the option of critical burst vs straight launch, if anything DOA5 added more to the mind game bc you had to be more weary of certain moves. You never really had to fear anything in DOA4 cuz you could just counter and do the same damage as a really damn good combo and comeback from anything lol...

Actually, and I know this sounds dumb, but the bland color scheme of DOA5 is one of it's biggest flaws for me. It's like the characters are great looking but the visuals and game look like wet concrete. If DOA4 did one thing amazingly, it's the vibrancy and stages(minus Experimental Playground). Considering the technology available today, there is absolutely no reason we should have the same tonally boring, urban looking stages DOA5 had. There's a reason everyone begged for old DOA stages.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
I agree with your points, but for me, DOA5 was just DOA4 with better shit. It didn't get stale for me, I like the option of critical burst vs straight launch, if anything DOA5 added more to the mind game bc you had to be more weary of certain moves. You never really had to fear anything in DOA4 cuz you could just counter and do the same damage as a really damn good combo and comeback from anything lol...

Actually, and I know this sounds dumb, but the bland color scheme of DOA5 is one of it's biggest flaws for me. It's like the characters are great looking but the visuals and game look like wet concrete. If DOA4 did one thing amazingly, it's the vibrancy and stages(minus Experimental Playground). Considering the technology available today, there is absolutely no reason we should have the same tonally boring, urban looking stages DOA5 had. There's a reason everyone begged for old DOA stages.
That's a fair assessment too. I like critical burst honestly. Especially for characters who need a way to get a good mid ounch launcher when they lack it.

I used Zack as an early example but his stance CB made him threatening at high threshold since you had to be weary of his mid kick CB which was easier to land. In both cases 66P+K became a valid launcher even though its slow as fuck for maximum damage.

I talk about Hayate a lot but how it corresponds to him is that Wind Dash P+K becomes mostly irrelevant because you don't want to yolo it since its unsafe as fuck and slow as fuck so its only relevant as a guaranteed launcher or a hard read.

That's why I also don't like throw punishment as well in this game but that kinda requires the stun/strike game kinda change... and I don't know if this game is ready for attack punishment.
 

Normal

Member
I played random matches in DoA4 often. I do not recall any specific character being particularly bad, so I do not understand criticism only ninja are good. I feel DoA4 gameplay was as if each combo were Tekken 10-hit. It became a different kind of game than other fighting games, but it was good. You were rewarded to understand the whole character command list to create potential for confusion and punished for trying to complete all attacks in a single combo, like tekken's 10-hit.

Hayabusa is a strong character, but he is even stronger in DoA5. DoA3 and DoA2 hayabusa had riduculous handstand stance, so DoA4 hayabusa is the most fair.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
DoA4 could have been good if

It had the stun system shown in the x05 builds (basically it had the doa3 stun system)

You couldn't hold off wall bounces

the high kick on wake up didn't exist

frame advantage wasn't stripped completely

all the 2-n-1 / 3-n-1 strings where not stripped

If it didn't have such an aggressive stagger escape that let you get out of everything. BT combos where non-existent.

All the guaranteed stuff from 2 and 3 were not removed (oh how I miss little things like being able to do 2p with hitomi with a counter hit guaranteeing a 46p)

If they didn't give everyone and their mom OH's

If guard breaks didn't have long charges and actually gave advantage.

If counter hits gave max height. Ein 4k counter hits in DoA2U. Ahhh those were the days.

If we had better movement instead of the feeling of sluggishness it had like wading through water.

At its core, doa4 had potential, but it got stripped down to nothing and then changed the stun system to be this obnoxious cat and mouse game requiring 7-8 hits to get a decent launch height.

I played random matches in DoA4 often. I do not recall any specific character being particularly bad, so I do not understand criticism only ninja are good. I feel DoA4 gameplay was as if each combo were Tekken 10-hit. It became a different kind of game than other fighting games, but it was good. You were rewarded to understand the whole character command list to create potential for confusion and punished for trying to complete all attacks in a single combo, like tekken's 10-hit.

Hayabusa is a strong character, but he is even stronger in DoA5. DoA3 and DoA2 hayabusa had riduculous handstand stance, so DoA4 hayabusa is the most fair.

Because the game was so basic with its tools every character was forced to play the same strategy. Because of this the game was basically who had the fastest strikes and best force techs. Basically this lead to literally Ryu, Helena, Gen Fu and a small number of others I cant remember being the only truly viable characters. Everyone else was fodder, especially against Helena's force tech game. She was completely dominate in 4.
 
Last edited:

MasterHavik

Well-Known Member
I played random matches in DoA4 often. I do not recall any specific character being particularly bad, so I do not understand criticism only ninja are good. I feel DoA4 gameplay was as if each combo were Tekken 10-hit. It became a different kind of game than other fighting games, but it was good. You were rewarded to understand the whole character command list to create potential for confusion and punished for trying to complete all attacks in a single combo, like tekken's 10-hit.

Hayabusa is a strong character, but he is even stronger in DoA5. DoA3 and DoA2 hayabusa had riduculous handstand stance, so DoA4 hayabusa is the most fair.
LOL! Ryu was busted in 4. He is actually mid in 5. The reason people say ninjas are good because they literally have everything and Itagaki buff them to the moon in 4. Genfu and Helena were two characters that could stand a chance but 60% from Ryu off the bridge stage with izuna hold or izuna drop is not "Fair". It's called, "What the heck happened to my lifebar bro?"

-Zack Main since DOA 4.
 

Normal

Member
LOL! Ryu was busted in 4. He is actually mid in 5. The reason people say ninjas are good because they literally have everything and Itagaki buff them to the moon in 4. Genfu and Helena were two characters that could stand a chance but 60% from Ryu off the bridge stage with izuna hold or izuna drop is not "Fair". It's called, "What the heck happened to my lifebar bro?"

-Zack Main since DOA 4.
Hmm. Hayabusa had strong Izuna counters but he is not the only character that benefit from stage. Bayman's advanced holds were very good on stages with explosive floors and walls like disco and alpha boss room. I think his middle punch hold would slam into the floor and then throw, and it could impact wall if close to wall, so explosion damage in one hold with floor and wall. I forget stage names. We are ultimately talking about one stage with Hayabusa. Sure it was strong, but you know it is strong and you know Hayabusa is looking for chances to throw and hold punches, so you give him kicks and avoid unecessary luck holds, and this is a tactic when on top of the bridge.

I do not see Hayabusa as mid in DoA5. He was given air throw as if he were made to be better than grappler.

I have read Itagaki would say "a grappler should not beat a ninja", so it is irony that DoA5 is really only game where Hayabusa is much better than a grappler.

DoA4 could have been good if

It had the stun system shown in the x05 builds (basically it had the doa3 stun system)

You couldn't hold off wall bounces

the high kick on wake up didn't exist

frame advantage wasn't stripped completely

all the 2-n-1 / 3-n-1 strings where not stripped

If it didn't have such an aggressive stagger escape that let you get out of everything. BT combos where non-existent.

All the guaranteed stuff from 2 and 3 were not removed (oh how I miss little things like being able to do 2p with hitomi with a counter hit guaranteeing a 46p)

If they didn't give everyone and their mom OH's

If guard breaks didn't have long charges and actually gave advantage.

If counter hits gave max height. Ein 4k counter hits in DoA2U. Ahhh those were the days.

If we had better movement instead of the feeling of sluggishness it had like wading through water.

At its core, doa4 had potential, but it got stripped down to nothing and then changed the stun system to be this obnoxious cat and mouse game requiring 7-8 hits to get a decent launch height.



Because the game was so basic with its tools every character was forced to play the same strategy. Because of this the game was basically who had the fastest strikes and best force techs. Basically this lead to literally Ryu, Helena, Gen Fu and a small number of others I cant remember being the only truly viable characters. Everyone else was fodder, especially against Helena's force tech game. She was completely dominate in 4.

You do not find it important for each character to have OH throw? They are not invincible. It should not only be a grappler technique.

Holds beat Attacks
OH beat Attacks
Attacks beat Throws
Throws beat OH
Throws beat Holds
OH beat Holds
Sidestep beat Attacks
Sidestep beat Throws
Sidestep beat Holds
Sidestep beat Sidestep
Sidestep beat Taunt

No problem from every character with OH.
Big problem from every character with Sidestep.

Hayabusa needs izuna sidestep and also floor izuna against laying opponent, because he is not good and mid tier. Hayabusa also needs hadouken from DOAD.
 
Last edited:

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
This is where I ignore Normal. Views are all misconstrued and I can't understand how you can even say that shit.

DoA4 could have been good if

It had the stun system shown in the x05 builds (basically it had the doa3 stun system)

I'm guessing that refers to how launch height doesn't get effected by the stun game. I'm ok with stagnant launch heights but I feel that if I do play the stun game, from breaking threshold I should get a higher launch specifically in those situations.

You couldn't hold off wall bounces
I think that mix-up potential was something that kept the game fresh.

Still while I find the argument valid I think DOA6 is going to handle it best. In thr current build stun game has no incentive but when you splat the opponent into a danger zone that pushes them back like ropes or the crowd, the opponent can hold like in DOA4. This makes things more interesting as it makes more laucherd valid rather than just to exist.

the high kick on wake up didn't exist
I ain't disputin that. I also believe in DOA5 Vanilla oki.

frame advantage wasn't stripped completely

all the 2-n-1 / 3-n-1 strings where not stripped
Honestly speaking this is where I find that it would be great to explore attack punishment but I don't know if DOA is ready for that.

In any case I'm not disputing this one either.[/QUOTE]

If it didn't have such an aggressive stagger escape that let you get out of everything. BT combos where non-existent.
Yea. That was incredibly whack.

All the guaranteed stuff from 2 and 3 were not removed (oh how I miss little things like being able to do 2p with hitomi with a counter hit guaranteeing a 46p)
I can't thing of a reason for a low jab to combo into 46P but I do agree, there's probably some better options that can be explored for attack properties

If they didn't give everyone and their mom OH's
I'm indifferent so long as the difference in utility is drastically in the favor of actual grapplers.

Like if Wind Dash T was an OH, I wouldn't be mad.

If guard breaks didn't have long charges and actually gave advantage.
Long charge gbs should open up honestly.

But there should be more frame traps. Im thinking if we steer clearer of throw punishment under 5 frames and leveled out throws at 10 frames as the generic fastest (not breakable) it would be a start in changing the frame data for a more strike based game.

If counter hits gave max height. Ein 4k counter hits in DoA2U. Ahhh those were the days.
I'm definitely into this. I do like playing the stun game but normalizing heights excluding max threshold and CH/HCH would be fine in this series.

If we had better movement instead of the feeling of sluggishness it had like wading through water.
I don't think the problen is movement. Back dash cancel is relatively easy. It just leaves you mad open and getting CH or back dashing sucks. I wish this game had back dash block as stuns are relatively dangerous still.[/QUOTE]

At its core, doa4 had potential, but it got stripped down to nothing and then changed the stun system to be this obnoxious cat and mouse game requiring 7-8 hits to get a decent launch height.

Because the game was so basic with its tools every character was forced to play the same strategy. Because of this the game was basically who had the fastest strikes and best force techs. Basically this lead to literally Ryu, Helena, Gen Fu and a small number of others I cant remember being the only truly viable characters. Everyone else was fodder, especially against Helena's force tech game. She was completely dominate in 4.
I like this comment. Frankly I think that while DOA4 did make you guess a lot, it had its charm in being a constant battle of outsmarting the opponent... but i'm not disputing that always having to guess is a bit ridiculous.

I was kind of obsessed with a DOA4 Ultimate idea but since I created this topic I changed my views and would rather them to pull great aspects from their past iterations beyond 4 when thinking of DOA6.

So if they pull from DOA3 the kinds of stun to launch values, I'm cool with that, but building stun for a higher launch height is something I feel fits the game. You give the opponent a mininum of 3 guesses before launching them for max height. They guessed wrong so why not throw the attacker a bone.

Now I agree with stun to launch not having discrepancies and randomness between NH, Stun to Launch and Level 2 Stun. This uniformity will make things run smoother.

Plus giving the incentive will make for a certain type of player. Risk takers can play stun game and in turn gain more damage.

Those who stun to launch won't be penalized other than to not receive extra damage beyond or below what's deemed fair.

Other than that I only really care if guaranteed damage isn't attached to simply a type of stun but rather certain moves for each specific character. So just because I have a sitdown doesnt necessarily mean I need to get a guaranteed launch.

Like Hayate's 3K in DOA4. It functioned like a lift stun before on CH that allowed him to follow up with not only mids but a well timed high like dash 4k6k or dash 6K which is a lot more aesthetically pleasing in my eyes.
 

Normal

Member
Nothing is misconstrued unless you mistook final paragraph. It was clearly a joke, you know?
"Hayabusa is mid"

do not care though, very rude way of existing. Do you imply to disagree with whole post or just final paragraph? Whole post before final paragraph is simple fact so there is no room to argue.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
You do not find it important for each character to have OH throw? They are not invincible. It should not only be a grappler technique.

No, I do not think every character should have one. In fact I believe only grapplers should have it, meaning characters like Jann Lee and Lei Fang should lose theirs. OH is a unique technique, and its something grapplers should have to counter the very fact that right off the bat they are slower than everyone else in the cast. It should be a tool to give them an even playing field. It's incredibly silly for faster characters that already have an offensive advantage to have even more tools to just murder grapplers with.
 

Normal

Member
No, I do not think every character should have one. In fact I believe only grapplers should have it, meaning characters like Jann Lee and Lei Fang should lose theirs. OH is a unique technique, and its something grapplers should have to counter the very fact that right off the bat they are slower than everyone else in the cast. It should be a tool to give them an even playing field. It's incredibly silly for faster characters that already have an offensive advantage to have even more tools to just murder grapplers with.
It isn't as you say though. OH are just alternate throws. Normal throw beat OH throw though, so grapplers would lose more often if opponent knew this character would try to use OH many times. If OH beat throw as well it would make sense only for grapplers, but OH has long recovery if miss and are always beaten by normal throw.

Far more balanced as universal option.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Nothing is misconstrued unless you mistook final paragraph. It was clearly a joke, you know?
"Hayabusa is mid"

do not care though, very rude way of existing. Do you imply to disagree with whole post or just final paragraph? Whole post before final paragraph is simple fact so there is no room to argue.
Everything. Hayabusa was top tier easy in DOA4. He didn't have to guess to do good damage. Great oki. Busted crushing. 12i launcher. Heavy damage mid kick launcher in 3H+K. Ws4k went under life. Headbutt was plus at mid range.

The mechanics of 4 were trash as holds gave you and easy cop out. Stagger escape was too strong. High kick wake up is dumb. Zack was trash as he couldn't launch into a good combo for shit. Now he's solid in DOA5 because his move properties make sense.

I don't believe guaranteed damage should be too free in DOA5 or DOA6 but it shouldn't be the level of cancerous it is now as well as not as heavy of a mixup game as DOA4.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
I'm guessing that refers to how launch height doesn't get effected by the stun game. I'm ok with stagnant launch heights but I feel that if I do play the stun game, from breaking threshold I should get a higher launch specifically in those situations.

Launch height was effected by the stun length. The threshold was just significantly smaller. Depending on the character you only needed about 2-4 hits after the initial stun to get max height, where as in 4 you needed 7-9 hits. That's a long time to play RPS. DoA5 wasn't as bad but I would have preferred if it didn't have such a similar threshold to 4's.

I think that mix-up potential was something that kept the game fresh.

But you could stagger immediately to the floor. Against a decent player there really wasn't any potential in the doa4 wall game. Its why I avoided walls, it was just pointless. Even if the stagger wasn't there, I don't agree with the concept of being able to hold off a wall bounce. RPS was already played out, and the effort was made to get to the wall. Why do I have to play more RPS? I'd rather just risk the launcher and go for the juggle than take 2 more risks to get a wall bounce that you can escape out of.

I can't thing of a reason for a low jab to combo into 46P but I do agree, there's probably some better options that can be explored for attack properties

Most of the cast had some kind of follow up after 2p on counter hit. It just had a unique recovery that allowed a lot of follow ups. I was pretty sad when they removed it in 4 and didn't see it return in 5.

I'm indifferent so long as the difference in utility is drastically in the favor of actual grapplers.

Like if Wind Dash T was an OH, I wouldn't be mad.

I'm just simply of the opinion this should be a tool uniquely for grapplers to compensate for them being slower.

Long charge gbs should open up honestly.

But there should be more frame traps. Im thinking if we steer clearer of throw punishment under 5 frames and leveled out throws at 10 frames as the generic fastest (not breakable) it would be a start in changing the frame data for a more strike based game.

Long charge guard breaks did open up to unblockables, but who's gonna sit there and get hit by a charged attack? Hitomi's guard break in 4 I think was one of the rare exceptions that didn't require a charge (its her power blow animation in 5.) You could do 7p+k without charging it and the guard break would allow an unblockable 7p. You could still hold it though, bleh.


but building stun for a higher launch height is something I feel fits the game. You give the opponent a mininum of 3 guesses before launching them for max height. They guessed wrong so why not throw the attacker a bone.

Which is how DoA2 and 3 worked, but the threshold was much lower.

Ryu , Helena , & Gen-Fu are still the best so literally nothing has changed from 4 to 5- At least in 4 they were manageable. 5 is still basically who has the fastest strikes lol Christie is even crazier in 5 than 4. Giving only grapplers OH's would make them even worse! Christie, Helena, Gen-fu, & Busa would just grab them right in their face for hi-counter damage!

DoA5 has an actual tier list where almost the entire cast is viable. DoA4 it was literally those 3 and no one else could compete. There was nothing manageable about Helena and her force tech game. Who has the fastest strikes in 5 is not the dominating factor, not like how it was in 4, and I'm not even remotely sure how you come to the conclusion that giving only grapplers OH's would make them worse.

It isn't as you say though. OH are just alternate throws. Normal throw beat OH throw though, so grapplers would lose more often if opponent knew this character would try to use OH many times. If OH beat throw as well it would make sense only for grapplers, but OH has long recovery if miss and are always beaten by normal throw.

Far more balanced as universal option.

They are not just alternate throws. They are throws with hold properties, and you're acting like I'm saying all their throws should only be OH's which is not the case. I'm saying the tool itself should be unique to grapplers. I'm not seeing how its more balanced to have that tool as a universal option. Making everything universal is why DoA4 was such a mess. Homogenizing doesn't equate to balance.
 
Last edited:

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Launch height was effected by the stun length. The threshold was just significantly smaller. Depending on the character you only needed about 2-4 hits after the initial stun to get max height, where as in 4 you needed 7-9 hits. That's a long time to play RPS. DoA5 wasn't as bad but I would have preferred if it didn't have such a similar threshold to 4's.
Your exaggeration on the hits is a little ridiculous. DOA4 max threshold values were 4-9 hits depending on damages and the initial hit which would set the threshold needed to reach.


But you could stagger immediately to the floor. Against a decent player there really wasn't any potential in the doa4 wall game. Its why I avoided walls, it was just pointless. Even if the stagger wasn't there, I don't agree with the concept of being able to hold off a wall bounce. RPS was already played out, and the effort was made to get to the wall. Why do I have to play more RPS? I'd rather just risk the launcher and go for the juggle than take 2 more risks to get a wall bounce that you can escape out of.
I mean I don't think the way DOA4's wall game performed should be the primary way to get damage. The DOA5 wall launch should retain it's current properties and dominance but danger zones allowing a mix-up would definitely be fine. Like I said, it keeps the meta fresh and while you have ways of guaranteeing damage through unholdable stuns, normalizing NH and Stun to Launch height will be interesting. If the launch heights are relatively low then things should be fine.

Most of the cast had some kind of follow up after 2p on counter hit. It just had a unique recovery that allowed a lot of follow ups. I was pretty sad when they removed it in 4 and didn't see it return in 5.
Just because we like something doesn't mean its necessary for it to come back... BUT I will say that specifically with 2P CH guaranteeing damage... that's a bit ludicrous. The fastest lows shouldnt guarantee damage if the next level up doesn't guarantee damage. (i.e. Hayate lost the 1P CH trip stun in DOA5U because it was too good. Why should a 12 to 14i low get it instead?

I'm just simply of the opinion this should be a tool uniquely for grapplers to compensate for them being slower.
I understand. I disagree slightly because I think they should dominate but the function of the offensive hold just is one I believe needs to be thrown around sparingly to certain strikers as it may be deserved to validate a mix-up that may otherwise not be beneficial, even if only to demand respect.

The Hayate Wind Dash T was a loose example as I would find more value in strike based changes than a band-aid like making it an offensive hold. But I believe some characters did deserve the changes.


Long charge guard breaks did open up to unblockables, but who's gonna sit there and get hit by a charged attack? Hitomi's guard break in 4 I think was one of the rare exceptions that didn't require a charge (its her power blow animation in 5.) You could do 7p+k without charging it and the guard break would allow an unblockable 7p. You could still hold it though, bleh.
There's no game any where that allows for unseeable guard breaks and for a good reason.

It's not fair to simply free up someone on guard with an unseeable opening with minimal risk. Long guard breaks exist to limit these options. Frame advantage on block is different but if you're gaining a free opening then I am not with it.

Which is how DoA2 and 3 worked, but the threshold was much lower.
The DOA5 threshold is fine though. DOA4 is a lil whack for sure. Im in agreement with a threshold like that... with hopefully a lot of juggle options.

DoA5 has an actual tier list where almost the entire cast is viable. DoA4 it was literally those 3 and no one else could compete. There was nothing manageable about Helena and her force tech game. Who has the fastest strikes in 5 is not the dominating factor, not like how it was in 4, and I'm not even remotely sure how you come to the conclusion that giving only grapplers OH's would make them worse.
Idk if this was at me but I said my piece about it but I think certain exceptions can be made for some strikers.

Not all but ones that maybe warrant it for a certain mix-up or stance situation.

I think its really a cool idea to consider attack punishment and bringing back 2 in q and 3 in 1 situations.
 

KasumiLover

xX_APO_Prince_Xx
Premium Donor
Offensive holds imo are reserved for Grapplers who need a way to keep up with the strikers who can pressure them. They also work with characters such as Marie Rose and Leifang and Ein who aren't the fastest but not the slowest, and who have a more defensive based style. If a character has a 9i jab they definitely don't need one for sure, 10i is depending on how fast their other neutral strikes are
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
DoA4 wasn't literally those 3- I still remember EscapingJail with Spartan & Offbeat Ninja with Ein. Perfect Legend even took Master to finals with.Hayate Mr. Wah posted. If there was nothing manageable with Helena & her force-tech game in DoA4 you must have not been very good. I played the game, I managed against Helena's because she couldn't frame trap like in 5. I promise you bro Christie is the best character in DoA5 (the fact that she's the fastest character with a stance that can side-step & be used interchangeably within her strings is crazy). Bro you're complaining that the fastest characters had an Offensive Hold in 4? Lol Christie is the fastest character in 5 & she has a side-step! The Fastest Character in the game has a Side-step that can be used within her already fast strings!

I literally just pointed out the flaw on why it would be bad for grapplers to exclusively have an OH-

If grapplers were the only one's with OH's that would make it predictable thus they would get grabbed in their face by higher tiers for hi-counters

Alright explain me to this: Why does Busa have a 4f neutral grab & Mila doesn't- I can't wait to hear this

1.) If you asked those 3 players they would tell you the same thing I said. Them being the top players doesn't change the fact that Ryu, Gen Fu, and Helena were the only true viable characters in terms of raw mechanics.

2.) Is the attack on whether a player is good or not necessary? I haven't attacked you in any manner.

2.) Helena very much could frame trap you in DoA4. She was literally one of the few characters that could. You clearly never got caught in one of her force tech loops.

3.) Being fast doesn't make her top tier. She just has good tools.

4.) Where am I complaining? I'm stating my opinion that OH's should be unique to grapplers. I'm not sure how that equates to complaining. My secondary is Jann Lee who has an OH with dragon gunner. I'd be 100% ok with that move losing its OH properties.

5.) Ok and? She has a side step within her move set. So what?

Your exaggeration on the hits is a little ridiculous. DOA4 max threshold values were 4-9 hits depending on damages and the initial hit which would set the threshold needed to reach.

I used to have a bunch of videos show casing the differences of 3 and 4 and how extreme it was in 4. The average for the threshold in 4 was around 7 hits. Only counter hits shortened it and only slightly. Either way, I was never a fan of the redesigned stun system. I would love to go back to DoA3's stun system.


I mean I don't think the way DOA4's wall game performed should be the primary way to get damage. The DOA5 wall launch should retain it's current properties and dominance but danger zones allowing a mix-up would definitely be fine. Like I said, it keeps the meta fresh and while you have ways of guaranteeing damage through unholdable stuns, normalizing NH and Stun to Launch height will be interesting. If the launch heights are relatively low then things should be fine.

I'm of the opinion if you're close to a wall and slam them into the wall it should bounce into a launcher regardless of danger zone. Only when you're a mile away and do a knockback into a specific wall type should it do the bounce back that lets you hold. Basically how it works in 5 now like the ring stages where it only bounces you off them when you do a knockback from far away.


I understand. I disagree slightly because I think they should dominate but the function of the offensive hold just is one I believe needs to be thrown around sparingly to certain strikers as it may be deserved to validate a mix-up that may otherwise not be beneficial, even if only to demand respect.

I just think its silly. Like when I play JL and do a dragon gunner. I've caught so many people with that thing while they are attacking. I just don't find it necessary for strikers to have it. I don't necessarily think its wrong or broken, just overall silly.

There's no game any where that allows for unseeable guard breaks and for a good reason.

It's not fair to simply free up someone on guard with an unseeable opening with minimal risk. Long guard breaks exist to limit these options. Frame advantage on block is different but if you're gaining a free opening then I am not with it.

I'm not referring to things like in string guard breaks, that would be ridiculous. I'm talking about the single input ones. Those all have wind up animations, but in DoA4 they were almost all useless and negative on block unless you charged them up, and no one's getting hit by a full charge guard break, which is why I never use Hitomi's charged guard breaks. They always get held lol. Hitomi's 7p+k guard break in 4 is the same wind up animation she has for her power blow in 5. Its not like you can't see it. Its a pretty noticeable wind up animation.

Idk if this was at me but I said my piece about it but I think certain exceptions can be made for some strikers.

It was a reply to someone else.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Alright I can reasonably understand Christie not being the best (I truly think Akira is the best-if you went against me I would show you why) but to say FAR from the best. Alright now you're exaggerating. I've been trapped by Helena in 4; she can trap you in even worse in 5. ???? That's funny- that's you complaining about it right there. I think it's even sillier that faster characters have side-steps 'to have even more tools just to murder grapplers with'. If Ryu, Gen-fu, & Helena were the only viable characters to you in 4 than they're even more viable in 5 because they have side-steps

I'm not complaining about anything. I'm simply making a point that DoA4 trying homogenize everything lead to extreme situations where only a few characters were viable. This is not the case in 5 where the majority of the cast is in a range where they are completely viable and competitive. I'm not even sure what you're going on about with side steps trying to compare them to OH's.

Your statement about Akira makes no sense either. Whether you beat me or not has no basis on how strong a character is. That's like saying if I 10-0 you with Hitomi it must mean Hitomi is top tier. No, she's like low mid tier at best.
 
ALL DOA6 DOA5 DOA4 DOA3 DOA2U DOAD
Top