Some gameplay issues with DOA6?

[NewWestFan]

No it wouldn't. Tekken amd doa play nothing alike on a base level.

Of course they don't you're totally right. Let's strip the stun and hold mechanics out real quick though. It sounds like there are a lot of people around that want DOA to be Land one critical poke>100% guaranteed combo>Launcher>Juggle>Hopefully wallsplat.

In which case the entire game is literally just pokes and labbing out optimal combos so you know what to regurgitate into the game to get sick damage.

 

[Raansu]

Of course they don't you're totally right. Let's strip the stun and hold mechanics out real quick though. It sounds like there are a lot of people around that want DOA to be Land one critical poke>100% guaranteed combo>Launcher>Juggle>Hopefully wallsplat.

In which case the entire game is literally just pokes and labbing out optimal combos so you know what to regurgitate into the game to get sick damage.

No one is saying to remove any of that. Also what you just said is entirely what doa was prior to doa4. Long stuns wasnt a thing till doa4. Prior to that it was stun and launch and looking for counter hit launches

 

[NewWestFan]

No one is saying to remove any of that. Also what you just said is entirely what doa was prior to doa4. Long stuns wasnt a thing till doa4. Prior to that it was stun and launch and looking for counter hit launches

Ahhhh yeah I unfortunately skipped over 3 and 4 so I'm ignorant on what they were actually like. I guess since most of my actual I'm paying attention and trying to learn time with DOA is with 5 the prospect of a guaranteed long ass CB combo into a juggle and stage hazard off of working for a single fast poke doesn't sit right. If the game were a couple quick stuns after the poke, launch, and just CH launchers as you say I'd be down for holds not being thrown out in the stun.

EDIT: Actually the more I think about it I agree with you. Removing holds from stuns makes the neutral more pronounced and raises the viability of characters that don't necessarily have complex move-lists at their disposal like Tina. If Tina who is a defensive character is able to poke in and then not have to worry about her linear move options getting held to interrupt her damage options prior to launch it adds a lot of weight to her. Yeah no y'all are right. I retract my statements from the opposite end of this debate. Shorter more impactful stun combos into launch with diverse juggle options to take advantage of stage hazards for extension or added impact sounds a lot more fun.

 

[Fantailler]

Of course they don't you're totally right. Let's strip the stun and hold mechanics out real quick though. It sounds like there are a lot of people around that want DOA to be Land one critical poke>100% guaranteed combo>Launcher>Juggle>Hopefully wallsplat.

In which case the entire game is literally just pokes and labbing out optimal combos so you know what to regurgitate into the game to get sick damage.

You highlighted perfectly the problem of stun. Stun is not a real frame advantage.

Which solution then ? Hold...

There's too much salt in my soup, let's add more sugar !

Not saying that against you, just a metaphor.

 

[Argentus]

These statements are completely contradictory. So which is it? Mashing random attacks is the way you're supposed to play or not? How are you supposed to "learn to read" someone when the other advice to players is to be as random as possible? How can someone be random and predictable at the same time?

You misread. I pointed out it only seems random if you're not paying attention. Holds force you to do so or get wrecked.

As the usual example, you'll get people constantly throwing out standard setups, which happen to primarily be mids, then when their mid gets held, they cry about their opponent "throwing out random holds" because they don't understand how predictable they were being.

What the hell does this mean? Because of the glaring issues in DOA, no hits count. That's the issue we're discussing.

It means don't tunnel vision on doing a follow-up combo all the time and learn to land the stronger attacks when there's an opening.

I do the slower, heavier hitting attacks then, that's called making your hits count.

 

[Raansu]

But first and foremost, the main appeal of the holds, imo are that it forces people to learn how to play better

It honestly doesn't. If anything it makes people complacent on honing other defensive skills.

Restrict the holds and all you get is people mashing attacks trying to mash out whatever combo they spent all their time in the lab practicing instead of learning how to deal with opponents.

Improve blocking skills, improve spacing skills, get good at timing fuzzy guards. There's a whole mountain of things that you can improve on defensively that require significantly more skill and reading than a hold and I'm 100% for defensive holds. Its a unique mechanic to DoA, but I just firmly believe the stun system should go back to the old doa games and there should be less chances to hold while stunned.

People need to learn to improve their neutral game instead of wanting a back door to everything after they got out played at neutral. Not that you have to worry about that anyways as there is no way they are gonna change the stun system. As it stands though, it seems we're going to mostly have what was in DoA5, which imo is perfectly fine, especially if its true that stagger escape is being removed. If thats gone, that opens up a whole lot of stuns that you could only hold out of if you SE'd out of it.

People just tunnel vision on "guaranteed setups" and holds help temper that bad habit.

People who "tunnel vision" are going to get steamrolled by someone with a good defense.

1) "Its Random" which sure if you never learned to read opponents, or are just super predictablr yourself, it could seem like that I guess.

It is random. In neutral you can more or less get a feel and read somewhat what your opponent is trying to do. That's not really a thing in stun when they just pop out of it with little animation to really follow since holds pop out at 0 frames.

And 2) "You can just mash holds ", which, look. If you're getting beat by someone just mashing or throwing out holds willy nilly, that means you were just throwing out the same attacks over and over without paying attention to your opponent , and honestly you deserve to eat a hold for that.

You're taking this completely out of context. People are not saying they are getting beat by random holds. The point is that random holds in stun are exactly that, random. It kills the flow in a situation that shouldn't exist to begin with.

The reward IS that you hit him. Why do you need more of a reward than that?

I fall back to my Hitomi example. If I make a read and go for 46k which is unsafe on block, what reward do I get if that spin stun doesn't give me anything for the risk I just took? Why would I bother doing that kick if (like you could in doa4) just stagger out of it, immediately turn around and block or hold the follow up. In what world is that ok? You made the mistake and let yourself get hit by a high kick thats unsafe on block. Why is it ok that you can recover from that mistake in the neutral game?

Ahhhh yeah I unfortunately skipped over 3 and 4 so I'm ignorant on what they were actually like. I guess since most of my actual I'm paying attention and trying to learn time with DOA is with 5 the prospect of a guaranteed long ass CB combo into a juggle and stage hazard off of working for a single fast poke doesn't sit right. If the game were a couple quick stuns after the poke, launch, and just CH launchers as you say I'd be down for holds not being thrown out in the stun.

EDIT: Actually the more I think about it I agree with you. Removing holds from stuns makes the neutral more pronounced and raises the viability of characters that don't necessarily have complex move-lists at their disposal like Tina. If Tina who is a defensive character is able to poke in and then not have to worry about her linear move options getting held to interrupt her damage options prior to launch it adds a lot of weight to her. Yeah no y'all are right. I retract my statements from the opposite end of this debate. Shorter more impactful stun combos into launch with diverse juggle options to take advantage of stage hazards for extension or added impact sounds a lot more fun.

Tina was pretty scary in DoA3.

 

[NewWestFan]

Haha. Yeah I get it now. Had to examine my mindset. It would be like being able to force yourself to fall out of a juggle in Tekken and immediately follow up with a guaranteed knock down against the person who popped you up in the first place. I agree that isn't right.

 

[Brute]

In the neutral game sure. But in the stun game you're not outsmarting your opponent, you're just guessing.

Maybe you are.

All you can do is try and bait/predict if they will hold or not at certain points, but at the end of the day you're still just guessing. Its pure RPS.

The fact that you have four options on four hit levels alone means that it's more involved than "pure RPS," let alone the numerous other considerations. I understand that what you're trying to say is that it's purely anticipation so you can't read enemy movements and the like (unlike you can in neutral), but to relegate that entire process to "pure guessing" would be to dismiss all inductive reasoning as "pure guessing," as well. And anyone with a reasonable capacity knows the difference between an active inference and a purely random guess.

A guess assumes that all options are equally as likely. Simplified, the stunned player would consistently try each hold each hit level about 20% of time, and would try to SE/not hold 20% of the time. But a seasoned player won't just randomly throw out each option at statistically equal rates. They'll try to read/anticipate their opponent (in addition to having generalized reflex responses to certain situations) and weigh the varying risks, rewards and chances of success for each option. Conversely, the attacker is trying to assess these and predict the most likely outcomes and negotiate their own options with risk, reward and chance of success.

If you're just blindly guessing without attempting to consider those factors, DOA's stun system would seem entirely random and probably frustrating, given that your opponent is likely putting more thought into it than you and probably will emerge with higher success rates as a result.

 

[ryu_highabusa]

14 SECONDS IN
SO BEAUTIFUL
Please watch and see how you can play defense in a real fighting game that doesn't rely exclusively on holds.
A grappler can step around a linear attack and actually throw. How amazing is that?
I can't name a single instance where Tina could use a backturned throw in 5.
Like, holy crap, this little change makes such a big difference.
I don't even know what BT throws she has. I kind of want to pull up training or a guide now.

 

[NewWestFan]

14 SECONDS IN
SO BEAUTIFUL
Please watch and see how you can play defense in a real fighting game that doesn't rely exclusively on holds.
A grappler can step around a linear attack and actually throw. How amazing is that?
I can't name a single instance where Tina could use a backturned throw in 5.
Like, holy crap, this little change makes such a big difference.

She has a couple setups where she can get them pretty easily especially if the opponent isn't expecting it in 5. That definitely has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about here though lmao.

 

[Raansu]

A guess assumes that all options are equally as likely. Simplified, the stunned player would consistently try each hold each hit level about 20% of time, and would try to SE/not hold 20% of the time. But a seasoned player won't just randomly throw out each option at statistically equal rates. They'll try to read/anticipate their opponent (in addition to having generalized reflex responses to certain situations) and weigh the varying risks, rewards and chances of success for each option. Conversely, the attacker is trying to assess these and predict the most likely outcomes and negotiate their own options with risk, reward and chance of success.

That's literally a long winded way of saying you're guessing. I think ahead all of the time. What did they hold last time? Which has less risk? Should I just bait the launcher and go for a throw?

There's only so much you can do with mind games, but at the end of the day you're still just guessing during a stun. Why do you think other fighters give such huge payouts once you win the neutral game? Fighting games are naturally a mind game, so they compensate by rewarding high risks. Why do you think DoA4 played the way it did with its limited strategies?

14 SECONDS IN
SO BEAUTIFUL
Please watch and see how you can play defense in a real fighting game that doesn't rely exclusively on holds.
A grappler can step around a linear attack and actually throw. How amazing is that?
I can't name a single instance where Tina could use a backturned throw in 5.
Like, holy crap, this little change makes such a big difference.
I don't even know what BT throws she has. I kind of want to pull up training or a guide now.

FSD was pretty wonky in DoA3, but it had its moments like that which were "fairly" consistent. Its a shame it never got improved on with DoA4. Instead they just made the tracking even more ridiculous.

 

[Brute]

That's literally a long winded way of saying you're guessing. I think ahead all of the time. What did they hold last time? Which has less risk? Should I just bait the launcher and go for a throw?

That's literally a long winded way of saying that the point flew over your head.

There's only so much you can do with mind games,

Well, yes. That peak, as dictated by determinism, is that your opponent would be utterly shut-down every time they pressed a button.
Pretty scary potential ceiling.

Why do you think other fighters give such huge payouts once you win the neutral game?

Again, DOA does give huge payouts for certain victories in neutral. They're just not always the easiest ones to land. You shouldn't get a huge reward for tapping someone in neutral with an i12 low (you get 5 damage). You should get a more substantial reward for an i23 mid (you get 81 damage).

I do find it funny that a lot of the people who complain about the stun system pick characters that are designed to play the stun game as frequently as possible. For some reason, I rarely hear someone say: "I hate the stun game, so I'll just use a grappler for high-risk, high-payout damage packets."

Fighting games are naturally a mind game, so they compensate by rewarding high risks. Why do you think DoA4 played the way it did with its limited strategies?

I already explained that.

 

[Raansu]

That's literally a long winded way of saying that the point flew over your head.

It didn't, but I'm really not into debating with that kind of retort that eventually leads to attacking.

 

[Brute]

It didn't, but I'm really not into debating with that kind of retort that eventually leads to attacking.

That's ironic considering that I'm only parroting your own language. To say that my point was merely a superfluous explanation is to imply that it missed the point of your argument (ie: your point went over my head).

But fair enough. I'm not really into debating with that kind of hypocrisy, myself.

 

[Raansu]

That's ironic considering that I'm only parroting your own language. To say that my point was merely a superfluous explanation is to imply that it missed the point of your argument (ie: your point went over my head).

But fair enough. I'm not really into debating with that kind of hypocrisy, myself.

If I came across that way then PM me and say so and I will happily apologize. I have no intention of being that way and there was no reason for a mod of all people to turn around in an aggressive manor.

 

[grap3fruitman]

You misread. I pointed out it only seems random if you're not paying attention. Holds force you to do so or get wrecked.

No, just no.

It means don't tunnel vision on doing a follow-up combo all the time and learn to land the stronger attacks when there's an opening.

I do the slower, heavier hitting attacks then, that's called making your hits count.

"fast attacks are bad and predictable! That's why I only use moves you can hold on reaction!" Lmao are you serious or are you trolling?

 

[Matt Ponton]

I also feel that one of the strongest deterrents for "random or guess holding" is in the punishment of the hold being greater than the hold's reward itself. DOA3 ran off a 3-way hold system, and there were less "hold restricted" situations than DOA5. But you can't sit there while play against an experienced player in it and say "I'll just guess a hold" as one throw in that game could mean literal death, even if you have half life. It's not a slap on the wrist like DOA4, and in most cases DOA5, was. Additionally, the faster throw speed (7i being the slowest outside of Catch Throws at 16i) allowed one to punish whiffed holds easier on reaction.

But I digress, since that is but one example of risk/reward in the system used for educated guessing.

I'll leave this video here not because it helps while also hurts my point, but because everyone loves a good hoss fight I imagine.

 

[Raansu]

I also feel that one of the strongest deterrents for "random or guess holding" is in the punishment of the hold being greater than the hold's reward itself. DOA3 ran off a 3-way hold system, and there were less "hold restricted" situations than DOA5. But you can't sit there while play against an experienced player in it and say "I'll just guess a hold" as one throw in that game could mean literal death, even if you have half life. It's not a slap on the wrist like DOA4, and in most cases DOA5, was. Additionally, the faster throw speed (7i being the slowest outside of Catch Throws at 16i) allowed one to punish whiffed holds easier on reaction.

But I digress, since that is but one example of risk/reward in the system used for educated guessing.

I'll leave this video here not because it helps while also hurts my point, but because everyone loves a good hoss fight I imagine.

It also helped that the stun game was not as crazy as it is in 4 and 5.

 

[Rikuto]

If I came across that way then PM me and say so and I will happily apologize. I have no intention of being that way and there was no reason for a mod of all people to turn around in an aggressive manor.

Brute's just always like that. I don't think he means much by it.

I've always found it helps if you picture him as one of those dead-eyed tsundere anime girls that always speaks emotionlessly but with intelligence and is mildly derogatory towards everyone.

Kinda like his avatar. Yea, just pretend he's his avatar.

 

[KasumiLover]

It also helped that the stun game was not as crazy as it is in 4 and 5.

Yeah, that and they reduced how much you could delay strings as well too which helped since in 4 and Dimensions, strings has an INSANE amount of delay, you could delay at the point where it looks like they're getting back to their idle stance xD