Community The Evolution of The Karate Master

Zeo

Well-Known Member
Alright... I usually type a bunch of crap but instead of listing a thousand changes I'd like to see I'm just going to list the core changes.

6P+K - CB Status removed, changed speed from i20 to i14, changed stun to +23 belly stun on NH and keep the falldown stun on CH and in stun.

Nothing's changed here.

8P - Property changed to +26 sit down stun (+18 Fastest SE) on CH and in stun. Changed speed from i18 to i22.

If this became a thing that would mean Ein is getting 97 points of stun launch damage after 3P > 8P > 33K and a free threshold guess after 3P > 8P > 3P. Not to mention 3P gives +40 which would make it highly delayable. That's kinda powerful for a semi-fast speed like i18. I elect we slow it down by 4 frames to normalize it with other sit downs in the game. A reward like this from i22 is much more reasonable.

Additionally, he's sacrificing his 2nd best and 2nd fastest force tech as well.


8K/1KK - Changed speed from i23 to i20.

I've relented on giving this a sit down. An SDS on both mid levels would break him so I've decided only to give it to 8P. 8K should stay as it is but currently it's his weakest and slowest mid kick launcher. We should remedy this by shaving off 3 frames which at least puts it on par with 7K, his 2nd slowest mid kick launcher. This also make 1KK less easy to react to in high level play as that was an issue due to it being a very telegraphed animation.

1K2K - Hayate's old 1KK string from DOA3 and DOA4. Low into tracking low sweep, +10 on NH, knockdown on CH and in stun, unsafe on block.

If Ein didn't get any new moves, he should get this. It's a great tool, it adds to Ein's previously non-existent low game, it helps 1P even more with tracking and it makes his mid followups more respectable. But at the very core, this is just a really good 1K string that currently no one has. Hayate has PP2KK but that doesn't really count.

4H+K - Changed frames on block from -15 to -8

He does this on block currently and he gets hit with a 100+ damage guaranteed back-turned combo from every single character in the cast, including himself. This move is good, but not that good. By making it -8 the only thing it can be punished with is jabs and throws. Additionally it would be safe at tip range and be a viable spacing tool in addition to a fast launcher.

3KKK/9KK - Changed frames on block from -10 to -5.

He finishes this string, he loses juggle damage but is safe. He goes for 3KK or 9K, he gets juggle damage on hit but is unsafe on block. This is the perfect balance. I have no idea why it's not like this already and currently the followups are completely pointless as you're being punished either way.

4K - Changed speed from i16 to i14, decreased damage 25 > 22.

This was actually someone else's suggestion. Speeding up 4K and keeping it's NH launch, but nerfing the damage as a tradeoff. It retains it's unsafety and becomes an even scarier whiff punish tool. With the damage decrease, it now loses to 8K and become officially his worst mid kick launcher as it should considering it's the fastest.

46K - GB Advantage on block changed from +1 to +2. Range increased from 2.43m to 2.80m.

As it is this move is inferior to Hayate's in every way. They give the same reward on block and damage on hit but Hayate being a faster character gets access to an i11 mid so he gets far more mileage out of his. Topping that off his range is 2.94m which completely blows Ein's out of the water. By buffing 46K up to +2 Ein gets the same options Hayate has vs other i11 strikers and gets access to an i8 jab and i11 2P which could help him out tremendously. Also buffing the range up to 2.80m gives it much more usefulness as a get in tool but doesn't quite put it on par with Hayate's so he retains that advantage over Ein's version of the move.

214H+K/Running H+K - i24, High kick, jump kick holdable, tracking, +6 on block, 40 damage on NH, wall splats on hit. Same range and recovery as Ein BT 8K, same animation as Ein BT 8K/Hitomi 236K.

I argued for this move time and time again but It was a losing battle. I want this but I admit I was being unreasonable. I still want Ein's dragon kick guard break in the neutral game but I've since completely reworked it. It is now a high, i24, +6 on block instead of +3, tracks and is jump kick holdable.

I'm sure some would have an issue with tracking as it's the only dragon kick in the game that would do so. However, it would also be the only dragon kick in the game that can be held.


All of these are nice. But the first 4 or even the first 2 and I'd be content with Ein as he is.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
I digress on 1K2K because its two tracking lows within one string that stun on NH. No other character in the game has that so I don't think Ein should be allowed to have it.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
I gave in as well, especially for 8Ks guard break situation. It's not an easy one to argue for. Of course, later on we could probably develop something for it But right now I'd settle for it staying the same with either the stun to launch height worked on to make 66kkk consistent or a bound be given.

Problem with the bound is it may be hard for TN to make WR K, 6KK not work while holding onto 1k6pk and 66kkk. Simply fixing that launch height helps a lot more, especially visually.

I can't get behind 1k2k. He has so many options off that 1k, and I can't think of anyone with close to that many options on their low game.

Not even Brad has true strings like that and he's supposed to be heavier mix up than Ein.

If it goes to anyone it should be Hayate and it should be the version straight out of his PP string. 1kp is just 236p. 1k2k is the sweep, 1k6p+K will still exist and be just as interruptable as it is on NH and guard.

That's my opinion.

If 1k gets anything for Ein I'd rather it be the crush frames of 1kp be increased and IF ANYTHING a crouching mid punch guard break for -4 to -2. This is simply to allow him to read sidestep on hit. As for hit effects I'd say it should do a stationary spinning launch like Gen Fus 3k6pp.

4p2kk and 4ppk. I'd like to see these come.

We'll definitely have to rewrite this though. Some of this stuff needs to go. Other things need some work but I really think we're almost there.
 
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Zeo

Well-Known Member
I digress on 1K2K because its two tracking lows within one string that stun on NH. No other character in the game has that so I don't think Ein should be allowed to have it.
I can't get behind 1k2k. He has so many options off that 1k, and I can't think of anyone with close to that many options on their low game.

Not even Brad has true strings like that and he's supposed to be heavier mix up than Ein.

If it goes to anyone it should be Hayate and it should be the version straight out of his PP string. 1kp is just 236p. 1k2k is the sweep, 1k6p+K will still exist and be just as interruptable as it is on NH and guard.
I disagree, Ein is currently the only character that lacks any form of guaranteed damage, I think being unique in a positive way doesn't hurt as long as he's not breaking the game. In this case, there are multiple scenarios.

1K2K - Beating step, standing guard and opening up for around +6 to +10 on NH and knockdown on CH/Stun.

1KK/1KP - Beating crouching guard for a wall splat, launch, lift stun or sit down stun depending on the hit type.

1K6P - Losing to crouching guard and reaction 2P, gives a double mixup if 1K2K is fuzzied.

Plenty of characters have the mid > low/mid mixup. Zack, Ayane, Rig, Kasumi, Ryu, Jann Lee, Lei, list goes on. Some of these characters also have tracking on their lows same as Ein. The difference is none of these characters have a low option that goes into a double mixup where the opponent has to guess a 2ND time. Well in a way this supplements Ein's general lack of free cancel pressure. As a rule he gets one chance to pressure the opponent, 3P or whatever poke he goes for and then that's it. In the case of guard break buffing, he gets 2 shots, his GB or 2P which gives light + and then his poke. 1K with this buff puts it in the same category.

One mixup that goes into another mixup depending on the scenario. If it hits? Technically it's the same as 3P landing after a guard break, that was 2 mixups. The reward varies. There are no other characters with 2 tracking lows that stun on NH in the same string but this is also supplementing Ein's general lack of low game to begin with.

2P - You already know how this works.
1P - This move is opening people up and catching step, but on reaction and reads. It's not a mixup and you aren't getting in with it.
2H+K - It's i23, this can be blocked and punished offline and generally you aren't going to be close enough to your opponent to actually pressure after this, and even if you do, that's still a double mixup, same as 1K with 1K2K.
1K6PK - 50/50 and one you have to use a crushable mid string high to get to. Also unsafe.

His mid game is lacking, this changes that and doesn't break him. I stand by it. And I stand by there being something unique about this character that's not negative.

4p2kk and 4ppk. I'd like to see these come.

We'll definitely have to rewrite this though. Some of this stuff needs to go. Other things need some work but I really think we're almost there.
I really wanted these initially, but they seem superfluous at this point. Without the SDS they lose potency and really I don't see the point of having them other than for him to have them. 1P2KP not being held on reaction because there's actually another option would be nice in HLP, but outside of that I don't really think it's all that necessary, it's not a game changer.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
This is late, but Jann lee has this move.

You must be talking about 2K2K. Either way I was not talking about move notation. I was talking about the fact that there are two tracking lows that come at different points in the string. If you give Ein 1K2K He will be the only character in the game with two tracking lows that stun on NH and give trip stun on CH from one move:

1K2K - tracking NH stunning CH trip stunning low #1

1K6P2K - tracking NH stunning CH trip stunning low #2

Not even Kasumi has this. She has 6P2K - tracking low #1 that stuns on NH and trip stuns on CH, then 6PK2K - tracking low #2 that knocks down on both hit status and is also slow as all hell.

Jann lee 2K2K only has the 2K sweep that stuns on NH. Nothing else from the 2K strings stuns on NH and tracks at the same time.
 
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