DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
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AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
I was just thinking of a few Rachel MUs:
Ryu: 6-4 Ryu's favor. Rachel sucks at spacing, I'll just throw that out there now. Ryu also has throws and holds that lead him to good combos (she has this too) but I'm not saying this is the bad part for her because she's heavy and he can't get everything off of her. Ryu is faster, better at spacing, and has more tracking.
Christie: 6-4 Christie's favor.
This is totally in Christie's favor. She is faster, better mix ups, better tracking, more useful special sidestep. Rachel has a few tracking but lets face it, she can't do all that much against the jakheiho. Also, Rachel doesn't crush at all. Christie crushes a lot and she has her special sidestep. Christie c also can space Rachel out, which if very bad for Rachel.
Lisa: 6-4 Lisa's favor. Pretty much the same thing as Ryu.
Tina: 5-5 or 6-4 (Rachel's favor) These two are kinda the same in terms of spacing, tracking, and throws and holds. They are pretty much the same but I give Rachel the + due to her special sidestep.
Kokoro: 6-4 Rachel's favor. Kokoro may be able to try to space her out but it probably won't work. This is exactly the same with Kokoro and Christie matchup. Rachel's special sidestep evades all of Kokoro's mid punch and low punch string enders. The high kick enders can hit Rachel in her SS. The only reason Kokoro has a better chance against Rachel than Christie is because Rachel's special SS doesn't put her in crouching status like Christie's does so Rachel can't escape the high kick string enders with the universal sidestep or her special SS.
Ryu: 6-4 Ryu's favor. Rachel sucks at spacing, I'll just throw that out there now. Ryu also has throws and holds that lead him to good combos (she has this too) but I'm not saying this is the bad part for her because she's heavy and he can't get everything off of her. Ryu is faster, better at spacing, and has more tracking.
Christie: 6-4 Christie's favor.
This is totally in Christie's favor. She is faster, better mix ups, better tracking, more useful special sidestep. Rachel has a few tracking but lets face it, she can't do all that much against the jakheiho. Also, Rachel doesn't crush at all. Christie crushes a lot and she has her special sidestep. Christie c also can space Rachel out, which if very bad for Rachel.
Lisa: 6-4 Lisa's favor. Pretty much the same thing as Ryu.
Tina: 5-5 or 6-4 (Rachel's favor) These two are kinda the same in terms of spacing, tracking, and throws and holds. They are pretty much the same but I give Rachel the + due to her special sidestep.
Kokoro: 6-4 Rachel's favor. Kokoro may be able to try to space her out but it probably won't work. This is exactly the same with Kokoro and Christie matchup. Rachel's special sidestep evades all of Kokoro's mid punch and low punch string enders. The high kick enders can hit Rachel in her SS. The only reason Kokoro has a better chance against Rachel than Christie is because Rachel's special SS doesn't put her in crouching status like Christie's does so Rachel can't escape the high kick string enders with the universal sidestep or her special SS.
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AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
Wait PAUSE! These are my opinions. They are probably not legit or as-legit as they are suppose to be
He's not much faster, honestly. I would take an i11 jab for some of the faster +on NH low mix-ups and pokes that Rachel has. Ryu may have better tracking, but Rachel also has the better SS ability. His range is also usually limited to non-tracking, and Rachel's command SS can work around that decently well (two of Ryu's moves are effective range-tracking moves, though).
Anyway, both have their pros and cons. Like I said earlier, I feel like it does tip in Ryu's favor, but only slightly.
I know, I know. But as mentioned before they are probably more accurate than the old data.
Soaring Zero
Active Member
Wow so Kasumi has an even match up with Helena? That makes me feel great about myself lol. I lol'd at Bass at the bottom all by himself. can't remember the last time I actually fought someone using him.
But I agree on the Rachel stuff. If you can out speed her and out space her, she's done. Just gonna say it. I play her some myself and I can honestly say that she struggles the most against the faster members of the cast.
Momiji I would classify somewhere in the middle maybe? She's got great stuns, launchers, and good damage for how easy her stuff is but she severely lacks in mix up. Her double jump is ok for that but opponents don't have to respect it at all because of how LONG it takes her to do it. You basically have to train them to block or go for holds before you even try it. Other wise they'll just high attack you right out it or side step and counter.
But I agree on the Rachel stuff. If you can out speed her and out space her, she's done. Just gonna say it. I play her some myself and I can honestly say that she struggles the most against the faster members of the cast.
Momiji I would classify somewhere in the middle maybe? She's got great stuns, launchers, and good damage for how easy her stuff is but she severely lacks in mix up. Her double jump is ok for that but opponents don't have to respect it at all because of how LONG it takes her to do it. You basically have to train them to block or go for holds before you even try it. Other wise they'll just high attack you right out it or side step and counter.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Some posts have been removed. Please keep the discussion about the tier list directly.
QueenJakheiho
Well-Known Member
Lol, you removed my gif? Not bad...
I was just showing that this list no one can´t be serious.
I was just showing that this list no one can´t be serious.
Well, if you look at the far right in the google spread sheet you'd see that much of the feedback is outdated or little evaluated. This means that we need more feedbacks on the different setups before the list becomes more solid. If you have any character you play a lot that you feel you could make an estimate in regards to match-ups against the rest of the cast, then please do share. Just copy one of the complete match-up ratings, remove the name and replace it with the character you want to evaluate.
an example could be:
Akira vs
Akira - "Your viewed grade"
Alpha152 - "Your viewed grade"
Ayane - "Your viewed grade"
Bass - "Your viewed grade"
Bayman - "Your viewed grade"
Brad - "Your viewed grade"
Christie - "Your viewed grade" - Probably close to 3
Eliot - "Your viewed grade"
Gen Fu - "Your viewed grade"
Hayate - "Your viewed grade"
Helena - "Your viewed grade"
Hitomi - "Your viewed grade" - Probably close to 5
Jann - "Your viewed grade"- Probably close to 5
Kasumi - "Your viewed grade"
Kokoro - "Your viewed grade"- Probably close to 5
Leifang - "Your viewed grade"
Lisa - "Your viewed grade"- Probably close to 4
Mila - "Your viewed grade"
Pai - "Your viewed grade"
Rig - "Your viewed grade"
Ryu - "Your viewed grade"
Sarah - "Your viewed grade"
Tina - "Your viewed grade"
Zack - "Your viewed grade"
New crew:
Ein - "Your viewed grade"- Probably close to 5
Jacky - "Your viewed grade"
Leon - "Your viewed grade"
Momiji - "Your viewed grade"
Rachel - "Your viewed grade"
Bushido
Well-Known Member
Can you elaborate a bit better on how it's 4-6 Rachel's favor? I'm leaning towards 5-5 since their tools aren't really outshining each other. They can fight pretty equally up close, maybe more advantage to Kokoro at a little bit more speed and safeness. Both have a similar damage output too. I don't think the fact Rachel has a special sidestep makes the matchup since they can be interrupted and the followups can be held and blocked. Though these comparisons are off the top of my head.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I'd have said 6-4 Rachel if Rachel's stomp was still legit. Without it she is just another heavyweight with a good offensive hold IMO. 5-5 because Rachel isn't any better at evading Kokoro than anyone else with a SS IMO. String grabs, 6PP and the tracking high kick if you absolutely need it take care of the SS. Rachel's sweep from special SS is an issue though but nothing so bad that Kokoro is fighting an uphill battle. In the neutral game Kokoro is better than Rachel since her pressure and ability to function midrange is far better. Rachel is only getting any kind of pressure when she gets a stun or knockdown and even then it's false pressure because the minute I choose to not tech when you choose not to stomp and vice versa you lose the advantage.
I know I talk shit about Kokoro being free to sidestep, but 6P6P catches Rachel's command sidestep free. The one opportunity when I'm thankful for DOA's stupid retrack mechanic.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Only things like frame data, discussion of character toolsets and strategies to use in MU's etc can be considered fact. When it comes to actual match-ups everything is an opinion based on the facts. For example everybody knows Bass is free to Kasumi. Yet you have Bass players that say the MU is 8-2 and other players giving numbers like 7-3 and 6-4 Kasumi because they feel the hold system doesn't allow 8-2 or 7-3 MU's. Technically nobody here is wrong because at the end of the day they all agree Bass is losing to Kasumi. THAT is the fact. No MU number is ever going to be a fact IMO.
When we create a tierlist what we should be trying to do is ascertain what tools a character has and how that assists them in the matchup, then compare that to the other characters tools. There is no place for bias toward or against characters in a tier discussion. If there is anything I notice about some players it's that alot of them like to either down-play or up-play their characters and not accept the reality. This is especially true with Kokoro players that main her.
Let's get one thing straight here. Kokoro is worse than vanilla in this game based solely on a comparison between this iterations toolset and the vanilla iterations. This is what she took a hit to; Correct me if I am wrong:
- Damage output due to the lame gravity causing her to lose juggles and actual decreases on numbers.
- Speed of moves such as 3K4K.
- H+K is unsafe now.
- Stuns were reduced making it easier to SE and get out of her mixups.
- Heichu throw frame advantage reduced to +11 making it so that it isn't possible to start stun game with jab strings.
- 1T giving you a chance at guessing more instead of allowing the player to choose between guaranteed damage or stun game.
- Sitdown stuns.
This is what she gained in this game:
- Mid punch Sabaki. No idea how useful this is.
- SS P+K.
- 236P+K.
- Bounds from what used to be sitdown stuns some of which didn't have consistent followups.
- Reduced Heichu throw frame advantage and low hold nerf make heichu P a viable option now due to Kokoro being at +13 if they hold at fastest and whiff a low hold. This potentially means that even on whiff, heichu P has a possibility of opening up stun game for Kokoro. Her players should hop on this and see if that is indeed the case.
- A power launcher with a damaging juggle as easy as she opens her legs doing her job at night.
None of this makes up for the things she took a hit to nor does it do anything to address the issues she had since vanilla which is only one: lack of mid or low tracking.
With these facts presented it is clear IMO that Kokoro is not as good as she was in vanilla. HOWEVER she is FAR from low tier. Just because Kokoro is not as good as she was in vanilla does not mean her actual position in the tier list has gone to ruin. You have to consider the changes to the toolsets of other characters. You guys that say shes low tier have to understand that you are saying the things she lost are enough to take her from high mid tier to rock bottom which is laughable.
These are the questions we should be asking:
1. Have her bad MU's gotten any better? Hell no.
2. Have her even MU's shifted in the oppositions favor? IMO nope but she needs to put in a bit more work since more things are SEable and 3K4K is weaker.
3.Have her good MU's become worse? I don't know the answer.
4. How does she fare against the newcomers? I believe Ein is 5 - 5. Dunno about the others.
This in general would be a good way to approach every character in this discussion IMO. Sorry for the wall of text.
When we create a tierlist what we should be trying to do is ascertain what tools a character has and how that assists them in the matchup, then compare that to the other characters tools. There is no place for bias toward or against characters in a tier discussion. If there is anything I notice about some players it's that alot of them like to either down-play or up-play their characters and not accept the reality. This is especially true with Kokoro players that main her.
Let's get one thing straight here. Kokoro is worse than vanilla in this game based solely on a comparison between this iterations toolset and the vanilla iterations. This is what she took a hit to; Correct me if I am wrong:
- Damage output due to the lame gravity causing her to lose juggles and actual decreases on numbers.
- Speed of moves such as 3K4K.
- H+K is unsafe now.
- Stuns were reduced making it easier to SE and get out of her mixups.
- Heichu throw frame advantage reduced to +11 making it so that it isn't possible to start stun game with jab strings.
- 1T giving you a chance at guessing more instead of allowing the player to choose between guaranteed damage or stun game.
- Sitdown stuns.
This is what she gained in this game:
- Mid punch Sabaki. No idea how useful this is.
- SS P+K.
- 236P+K.
- Bounds from what used to be sitdown stuns some of which didn't have consistent followups.
- Reduced Heichu throw frame advantage and low hold nerf make heichu P a viable option now due to Kokoro being at +13 if they hold at fastest and whiff a low hold. This potentially means that even on whiff, heichu P has a possibility of opening up stun game for Kokoro. Her players should hop on this and see if that is indeed the case.
- A power launcher with a damaging juggle as easy as she opens her legs doing her job at night.
None of this makes up for the things she took a hit to nor does it do anything to address the issues she had since vanilla which is only one: lack of mid or low tracking.
With these facts presented it is clear IMO that Kokoro is not as good as she was in vanilla. HOWEVER she is FAR from low tier. Just because Kokoro is not as good as she was in vanilla does not mean her actual position in the tier list has gone to ruin. You have to consider the changes to the toolsets of other characters. You guys that say shes low tier have to understand that you are saying the things she lost are enough to take her from high mid tier to rock bottom which is laughable.
These are the questions we should be asking:
1. Have her bad MU's gotten any better? Hell no.
2. Have her even MU's shifted in the oppositions favor? IMO nope but she needs to put in a bit more work since more things are SEable and 3K4K is weaker.
3.Have her good MU's become worse? I don't know the answer.
4. How does she fare against the newcomers? I believe Ein is 5 - 5. Dunno about the others.
This in general would be a good way to approach every character in this discussion IMO. Sorry for the wall of text.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
*sees Tier list*
Zack isn't D.....sigh...he is high up on B tier and close to A. He beats all the characters he is ahead of currently or goes even with them.
Zack isn't D.....sigh...he is high up on B tier and close to A. He beats all the characters he is ahead of currently or goes even with them.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
How and why. Give a detailed breakdown of a few MUs.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
I thought you would never asked. It's late here, so I'll do a few. A few things to already tell you he's not D tier. He has improved tracking, a string that can crush mids and high and that can track, he has one of the highest damage output in the game, while he has the play stun game he has many strings that change hit levels so it's difference to hold him, he is also very very safe and is tougher to punish. Let's not forget his i11 mid and i12 mid kick too people. So the characters you have in D tier he just....how do I put it...he does a MJ three throw dunk over them.
Zack vs. Mila 5-5
Both characters have ways to counter each other games. Mila is one of the few characters with a wake up throw off the ground can stop his force tech game. Zack has the slight edge in speed, but Mila with 1p can stop that. Any strings right into tackle can be duck on reaction so Zack can block the string and duck and smack her with duck punches. Both characters have situation where they are at a great advantage at the same time the defender can stop their offense with the right guess. These characters cancel each others out in every situation. Pretty awesome match to watch if both players are godlike.
Zack vs. Tina 6-4 Zack
While Tina has good crushes and amazing holds and throws...she has to play the stun throw game to get any of that going and Zack can stuff her with his speed. The Tina has to wait for a mistake and make a good punish to get their going. Tina has an option select though so a Zack player isn't running town on them easily. Another thing to note vs. Tina as Zack is if you get stun you should only hold if you know what is coming next if you don't slow escape and fuzzy guard what is coming next. Also Zack does overall better combo damage...while Tina well does better throw damage.
Zack vs. Lisa 6-4 Zack
Zack use to lose bad in this one. What changed? Simple Lisa's crushes got nerf so there isn't anything stopping him from applying pressure and outspacing her. Any attempts at her throwing 1p or any of her other crushes Zack can stuff it with 6p or 6k(better to use 6k because of better hitbox). And Zack easily beats her in speed so can get bulldog easily. What Lisa has to do is use space and bait moves out to get the Zack to make a mistake.
(Last one because I need to do something important. I'll do more later.)
Zack vs. Jann Lee 6-4 Zack
Another MU Zack lost in vanilla. Now he doesn't....why? The nerf to dragon gunner and the nerf to his 6p. So Zack is going to be bulldog him all over the place and can apply pressure. The JL needs to land a mid punch counter to get his offense going. JL can also keep up with Zack in damage though. So not an easy win at all.
That is all for now. I shall rest folks.
UprisingJC
Well-Known Member
I'm personally curious about certain MUs...any analysis?
Kasumi v.s Ryu 6:4 in Kasumi's favor
Kasumi v.s Bayman even MU
Helena v.s Ryu 6:4 in Helena's favor
Helena v.s Hitomi 7:3 ???
Kasumi v.s Ryu 6:4 in Kasumi's favor
Kasumi v.s Bayman even MU
Helena v.s Ryu 6:4 in Helena's favor
Helena v.s Hitomi 7:3 ???
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
you can add Kasum vs. Zack 6-4 her favor.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
why? i hope you have a really good answer. i am all ears...
edit: i am so sorry. i miss read your post.
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AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
You have anything for Christie and Zack. Im sure its in Christies favor but I'll like to see you opinion.