Koompbala
Well-Known Member
Because you haven't provided any of his matchups mister. Better get crackin on them so he can be boosted up to S tier.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
- Start date
Because you haven't provided any of his matchups mister. Better get crackin on them so he can be boosted up to S tier.
Ivan Osorio
Active Member
I'm sorry for the useless bump, and this may be the stupidest question ever, but I have never understood how you reach match-up conclusions... What exactly are the steps here? I'm obviously over-simplifying but do you do this against level 8 CPU? 10 matches against a certain character and keep track of how many were won / lost and why?
Without a doubt, I don't have level to be of any aid in this process (if it happens as I have speculated), but I would like to understand what is involved. Deeply appreciated if anyone can clarify. This seems to be such an old concept that I can't seem to find anywhere where it is actually explained.
Without a doubt, I don't have level to be of any aid in this process (if it happens as I have speculated), but I would like to understand what is involved. Deeply appreciated if anyone can clarify. This seems to be such an old concept that I can't seem to find anywhere where it is actually explained.
Saber
Well-Known Member
6-4 doesn't literally mean that the character will win 6 out of 10 matches. 5-5 is 50/50 - the match can go either way, ie. the two characters are evenly matched, no one being stronger nor weaker than the other. 6-4 is 60/40 - the match is tipped in favor of a character, let's say Leifang over Kokoro.
No one takes 6-4 as the character in advantage would literally win 6 matches and lose 4. At least to me, I take it as a % advantage/disadvantage. It all depends on the player to make it work. The Kokoro-Christie matchup is 3-7 in favor of Christie, yet, if the Christie player makes a butt ton of mistakes, then the Kokoro player would win indefinitely.
P1naatt1ke1tt0
Active Member
@Ivan Osorio
In addition to what Saber said, the matchups are decided in a theoretical situation, where two top players face eachother. So if the matchup is 7-3 Kasumi/Bass, and both players are superbly and equally skilled, then in theory the Kasumi player would win 70 matches out of 100, on average.
In addition to what Saber said, the matchups are decided in a theoretical situation, where two top players face eachother. So if the matchup is 7-3 Kasumi/Bass, and both players are superbly and equally skilled, then in theory the Kasumi player would win 70 matches out of 100, on average.
No questions are stupid.
Now as P1naatt1ke1tt0 mentions above, that is the end result and theoretical "approach". Now, as we all know this may not be as simple as people are after all discovering new tech, or got other random elements pushing the equation and so on. Thus it quickly becomes a social science, where one must mix facts with some degree of subjectivity in order to get anything.
The steps usually follows:
1. A person who mains or play a specific character a lot supply his perceived match-up rating.
If it is based of one feedback only it is perceived as weak, and any other feedback in other match-up discussions would trump it, or slide it towards the middle of none-agreements (depending on how strong that other MU has been discussed).
2. From this a discussion usually follows, with new recommendations for the MU-scoring.
Specific match-ups people disagree with the scoring for are discussed as for investigating tools or options that may have been neglected and so on. Here one usually challenge the specific tools one have towards each other, provide frame data, crushes, certain approaches of interest and in general contribute towards the "facts" for reaching understanding for those viewpoints. Unless there is an agreement the share numbers of sympathizers for a certain setups would determine what score is given, unless the MU-of the counter party has been discussed in great detail and found it agreeable towards the minority vote.
However, this is how it may be viewed in the short term. In the long term one has to consider the following:
3. Relevance lost over time or patches.
Generally, the newer MU or feedbacks trumps older ones for several reasons. First of the longer the current patch has been played, the more tricks has been exposed and been accustomed towards. Generally once one move over to a new patch the game changes, thus the newer is perceived as better and would most likely be taken into consideration until someone voice disagreement. The old data will then only be perceived as relevant until we got some new inputs, where older data is viewed as worse than "1 feedback only"-data.
Also, it is not always easy to gain a discussion with people who was at the forums 1/2 year ago. Unless a discussion follows it would then fall in the cathegory of "1 feedback only"-data, or "weak" (which is better than nothing, by all means).
4. It will probably never be a complete project.
There will always be a certain error because of the degree of subjectivity. Also no one is equally good, and the mind games will always impact the game as well. Thus this would not be a fact based science and the MUs and the following tier list should not be interpreted as universally correct, and only an estimation for what the community as a whole believe to be true, collectively.
5. General go at it on an individual level.
Different feedbacks may have different degree of credibility. This is normally shown in the discussion part, as if one of the parties only supplies numbers but don't involve themselves in the following discussion. Normally the way to think about it is "in all the different scenarios, what options do one have towards the other character?" and in sum, what character would statistically win assuming equal skill and understanding (at the top level)?
An easy way to view this is to think a mirror match. A mirror match would always be 5-5, but even so characters may have certain advantages depending on if they are at frame advantages and so on. If you then take all the scenarios you view as points of interest in a mirror match, and replace it with a different character, then who would you view the odds of being in favor for overall?
The points of interest then may comes down to (example case of thinking)
Neutral game:
- Spacing
- Effect of success
- Probability of success
- CQC (Close Quarter Combat)- Probability of success
- Effect of success
- Probability of success
- Approach techniques- Probability of success
- Effect of success
- Probability of success
Frame advantage:- Probability of success
- Odds of getting it (linked to the neutral game)
- Damage output.
- Mix-up options. (Probability of successful rotation)
- Mix-up options. (Probability of successful rotation)
Frame disadvantage:
- Defensive options
- Damage output
- Effect
- Effect
Other:
- Special cases
This is just one way to approach the MU, and may depend on the nature of the character as not everyone fit an A4 standard.
As an example case I can "argue" with myself at Christie vs Hitomi.
Neutral game, 50-50.
- Christie has more of an upper hand up close, but Hitomi make up for it in some better spacing game. All in all there are not great advantages either way and they even each other out.
At frame advantage, 60-40.
- Christie's options are more at the cost of only slightly less damage. She has a higher chance of gaining deep stun and generally starts of with frame advantage as she is much quicker than Hitomi. However, Hitomi has the potential of never stopping at frame advantage and do decent poke damage with 6t and low kicks. In other words if she first manages to gain the frame advantage she could potentially never let go. This also increase the possibility of gaining a deep stun once she has the frame advantage as it forces the opponent to react.
At frame disadvantage 40-60.
- Hitomi has advanced holds and parry. Her advanced holds in general do more damage if successful. However what really tip this in Hitomi's favor is that her parry gives her that big effect frame advantage. Also Christie's usually go to moves are either high punch or mid punch, making the possibility for success decent or at least limiting on Christie's normal play.
Total: 50-50.
In arguments one may go even further into detail, like stating
Neutral game up close (start of battle)
Christie
High punch 9 frames vs 10 frame high Hitomi
High kick 13 frames vs irrelevant
Mid Punch 11 Frame midpunch vs Hitomi's 13 frame
Mid Kick 12 frame kick (crush high?) vs Hitomi's 13 frame
Both have 14 frame low punch (even trade?)
Special note: Hitomi can parry both high and midpunch.
Judged from this
Christie's possibility to succeed with High p is >75% if they trade blows.
Christie's possibility to succeed with High k is 0% if they trade blows.
Christie's possibility to succeed with Mid punch is >75% if they trade blows.
Christie's possibility to succeed with Mid kick is 100% if they trade blows.
Christie's possibility to succeed with Low punch is >25% if they trade blows.
So, this is the odds "if they trade blows". Judged from this Christie clearly has some good opening options against Hitomi. However, if both characters know the numbers, they'll also see that Christie's options quickly boil down to mid or high punch, or unsafe mid kick. Thus the opening option has a high possibility to be throw punished on block after opener, or can be punch parried.
Thus Hitomi can neutralize 2 options in 1 with punchparry, or block mid k for throw punish or even block for later punchparry upon reaction. It then becomes and option of mind reading.
Of course, the Christie player could also know this, then the option could very well be to throw.
All in all though, Christie players would most likely either attack or throw. Holding is less attractive as they'll have to guess between 4 options, as with striking their odds (if they guess Hitomi will strike) may be 75~100%. Hitomi's case the 3 "real" opening options for Christie may boil down to 2 with punchparry, where the mid k hold may also be an advanced hold, in other words if one guess right (50% chance), the dmg done will be good. However, the option of throwing for Hitomi is low, as Christie would most likely not hold or block.
Also in the totality Hitomi's odds of succeeding will not go past 50% even if she guesses correct, unlike some of Christie's moves that has 75% vs strikes, 50% chance vs holds and 100% chance vs throws.
End note:
When that is said "people" won't or can't think this straight forward on the different MU's as certain MU's the spacing may becomes slightly more irrelevant, the overall trades is very complex and so on. In conclusion it is like P1naatt mentions, that you just have to see overall what the different options between the characters are, and make a sum of all the different scenarios to get an estimate as for in who's favor the balance is tipping.
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DR2K
Well-Known Member
If he wore a bra it would be a bcup.
vINv
Active Member
i think alot of what has been written has been written with out explanation writing m-us on chance is not the way to or at least that what it sounds like what is being done here to answers sweets question i have played/watched enough genfu players to determine having a 214throw and that's plus ten 236throw that launches counter hit fishing with 6p not mention genfu has terrible movement so he gets docked in the spacing department big time he also has small hit box so any char with have decent spacing game can work around him if ppl study frames they can see that he gets plus moves that are duckable all his tracking moves are slow which forces you to stutter(delay your strings) genfu takes alot of work the more knowledge a person has of genfu frames and setups the less effective he is if you watch our japanesse friends Gen fu get no W's over seas
i think what makes more mad about this tier list is the absurdity that jacky is B tier XD
Jacky's Tools are Good and he as great frames Great spacing easily the best whiff punish-er in the game reasonable safe incredible force tech setups that ppl don't even know about great frame traps good punishes the only draw back of jack is Execution and he takes high counter dmg for standing in neutral and Christie is not S tier A maybe but your stretching it ppl need study there frames a lil bit more.....
i think what makes more mad about this tier list is the absurdity that jacky is B tier XD
Jacky's Tools are Good and he as great frames Great spacing easily the best whiff punish-er in the game reasonable safe incredible force tech setups that ppl don't even know about great frame traps good punishes the only draw back of jack is Execution and he takes high counter dmg for standing in neutral and Christie is not S tier A maybe but your stretching it ppl need study there frames a lil bit more.....
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PffffftaahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAA
Have you even seen Ryu's 4PK? Went from +9 to -14
Harder to connect from juggles, no auto-tech, double-strike messes up wall bounce hits, less crush properties and he doesn't have mix-ups/delays like Hitomi does to compensate for it.
THAT is a nerf. Hitomi just got a little slap on the wrist compared to hell Ryu's been trucking through.
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Good thing this is a unofficial tier list topic because if this was supposed to be a serious discussion about a tier list the doa community would be the laughing stock when it comes to this shit. First off actual tournament players hardly take part in these discussions(Really I can't completely say I blame them) so we're stuck with players who spend most of their doa life online trying to discussion tiers with hardly any weight going behind their claims. Instead of using science and logic behind the game I mostly see people judging by online tactics, or letting their ego get the best of them because they want their character so badly to be good. This thread is just weird. Just saying.
Genfu has 1 14 frame tracking launcher and 4p6p is 13 frames and retracks. Also ur forgetting his vortex air catch kick not to mention his deep stuns from parry and his faint stun. You have no knowledge on genfu if you think hes b tier. The genfus you watch suck. Genfu dominates in america where the skill is the highest. Hes in no way only b tier. Also 3p is one of the best crushes in the game
No one said he he belongs in B tier (at least I hope they didn't, lol). That's simply the default if you have 5-5 MUs across the board, and since no one has gone through his specific MUs, it hasn't been updated to specs yet.
That one dude vinv said he was b tier
DR2K
Well-Known Member
This isn't really true tournament players list who they think are the best characters all the time. There's tons of editorials on SRKs frontpage whenever a player does make a list.
Tier List
SS
Alpha, Genfu, Sarah
S
Kasumi, Ayane, Christie, Momiji
A
Helena, Pai, Hitomi, Kokoro, Rig, Mila, Rachel, Hayate
B
Ein, Tina, Akira, Jacky, Leon, Bayman, Hayabusa, Leifang, Jann
C
Lisa, Eliot, Zack, Brad
D
Bass
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Vinv youre a moron. I dont use 20 frame lows. Also my "online" genfu tactics have won me back to back tournaments against players regarded as the best in the world. Have a seat online scrub
Zeo
Well-Known Member
Just dropped in to look at the list... with the knowledge I have and.. yeah.. no.
- Gen Fu is WAAAAY too low. He's in S, probably higher than Sarah.
- Ein is too high, he's in E, bottom five if not 2nd or 3rd from worst.
- Akira is too low. He got nerfed but he's not that low on the totem pole. I know this char, bottom A or upper B.
- ...How is Mila at the bottom of D tier?
- Rachel is listed as the worst character in the game... LOL, no.
- Dunno how I feel about Ryu being so low...
- I like that you put Jacky on the list but not enough data on him to place. Feels less like B and more like A imo tho.
- Rig is a bit too high.
- Alpha is too low.
- Gen Fu is WAAAAY too low. He's in S, probably higher than Sarah.
- Ein is too high, he's in E, bottom five if not 2nd or 3rd from worst.
- Akira is too low. He got nerfed but he's not that low on the totem pole. I know this char, bottom A or upper B.
- ...How is Mila at the bottom of D tier?
- Rachel is listed as the worst character in the game... LOL, no.
- Dunno how I feel about Ryu being so low...
- I like that you put Jacky on the list but not enough data on him to place. Feels less like B and more like A imo tho.
- Rig is a bit too high.
- Alpha is too low.
If you want to influence the tier list you have to provide some updated Match-up ratings though. Saying Gen Fu wears bras won't impact it much you know... 
For Gen Fu I've created the match-up discussion thread here.
Feel free to speak your mind peeps!
Oh my, watch out for iHajinShinobi. He'll probably want to have a word with you!
Also: Updated the list (was some great updates in the Rig thread).
For Gen Fu I've created the match-up discussion thread here.
Feel free to speak your mind peeps!
Oh my, watch out for iHajinShinobi. He'll probably want to have a word with you!
Also: Updated the list (was some great updates in the Rig thread).
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I hope you realize you're responding to the guy who claimed his friends were playing in arcades before 5U's 1.03 patch even dropped. Should just ignore him.