No, what he's saying is that a tier list doesn't have much impact on who wins a game compared to player skill.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
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Malfury
Active Member
That goes without saying though.. And that's not what this thread is about anyways.
SakuraShinobi
Member
However my statement was in response to the the situation of someone saying a character had no chance at all against another, so I wasn't actually stating something that held no weight in the matter.
UprisingJC
Well-Known Member
Any analysis on this matchup?
Kasumi v.s Sarah.
They both are fast.
Kasumi has a lot of low follow-ups, a bit faster(jab) than Sarah is and is highly unsafe. Her 2p on NH leaves her at -1, which is not ideal when facing someone who also has an i11 6p. When it comes to mid-to-long range combat, Kasumi seems to work better than Sarah does.
Sarah has almost no low follow-ups from her strings but she's very safe and her 2p on NH is +0. Besides, she has some moves(especially her jab) that grant her frame advantage. As for lows, she has 2H+K that ducks highs instantly and stuns her opponent on all hit types(although the stun duration when the move hits as a NH is not long)
Kasumi v.s Sarah.
They both are fast.
Kasumi has a lot of low follow-ups, a bit faster(jab) than Sarah is and is highly unsafe. Her 2p on NH leaves her at -1, which is not ideal when facing someone who also has an i11 6p. When it comes to mid-to-long range combat, Kasumi seems to work better than Sarah does.
Sarah has almost no low follow-ups from her strings but she's very safe and her 2p on NH is +0. Besides, she has some moves(especially her jab) that grant her frame advantage. As for lows, she has 2H+K that ducks highs instantly and stuns her opponent on all hit types(although the stun duration when the move hits as a NH is not long)
I would say Sarah is faster, honestly. Sarah's 44P I think is the highest damage 9f startup move. So if Sarah hits Kasumi with a NH 2P, 44P beats Kasumi's jab 100%. Too bad what's gonna happen in a real game is that 44P will whiff 'cause it has no range.
Characters with good high crushes and good spacing still give her trouble. And Gen Fu of course. Now that's a character.
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
Kasumi Vs Sarah eh?
Kasumi can try to space her out since Sarah's spacing isn't all that good. Crushing also helps Kasumi here since Sarah has a lot of highs. Belive it or not but sidestepping Sarah here and there can work. Sarah players don't really throw out many tracking moves except a few like FLA 1kk, 3pk or 6p4k, I'm not saying she's linear I'm just saying Sarah players don't really use her tracking moves except a few. Being too defensive against Sarah isn't smart since she has lows that stun on NH and has frame advantages on block out the ass. Using Kasumi's speed can help but Sarah is basically just as fast and has just as good mix ups and pressure. Also, being a lightweight fighting Sarah is a pain since Sarah can juggle the shit out of anyone in the game including heavy's and she can get maybe 5 or 6 33h+k's at the wall on leightweights. Kasumi being unsafe is also a problem especially since Sarah is safe as hell.
Best thing for Kasumi to do is try to space her out or use some crushing moves.
Kasumi can try to space her out since Sarah's spacing isn't all that good. Crushing also helps Kasumi here since Sarah has a lot of highs. Belive it or not but sidestepping Sarah here and there can work. Sarah players don't really throw out many tracking moves except a few like FLA 1kk, 3pk or 6p4k, I'm not saying she's linear I'm just saying Sarah players don't really use her tracking moves except a few. Being too defensive against Sarah isn't smart since she has lows that stun on NH and has frame advantages on block out the ass. Using Kasumi's speed can help but Sarah is basically just as fast and has just as good mix ups and pressure. Also, being a lightweight fighting Sarah is a pain since Sarah can juggle the shit out of anyone in the game including heavy's and she can get maybe 5 or 6 33h+k's at the wall on leightweights. Kasumi being unsafe is also a problem especially since Sarah is safe as hell.
Best thing for Kasumi to do is try to space her out or use some crushing moves.
I don't think any of the changes were big enough for that. What's the biggest change? Jann Lee's 11f 6P and Leifang's standing 2K? Helena's delays? Gen Fu's PL input?
Ye, the 11f 6p is perhaps the biggest deal as that effectively makes it the best mid in the game, which is unbeatable by any other mid as he either beat them in frames or in damage. So Jann got a huge buff with that boost.
On a different field I feel Hitomi got nerfed hard, 236k was/is a big part of my game strategy for the way I was using her. Needless to say at -5 people can now just counter 236k with anything rather than having to think fast, which on its own makes people think even faster increasing the effect of the nerf. I don't know if this is a huge impact on Hitomi players as a whole, as for my personal preference for play. My Hitomi is usually strong when I play with people when they are tired and stuff, as she is extremely effective when people's reaction time goes down, so I don't know if others would feel that as such a huge nerf as I do.
Also you have just pure boosts like Ein's increase to throw and hold, which may not help game mechanics but surely don't hurt their chances of winning.
The clue I would say is that this game is so balanced that even the smaller things helps a lot. This game could easily have just 1 or 2 tiers if you'd where to compare it against say KF or most 2D fighters. By expanding it over 6 tiers for conversation the margins are really small.
On a different field I feel Hitomi got nerfed hard, 236k was
Also you have just pure boosts like Ein's increase to throw and hold, which may not help game mechanics but surely don't hurt their chances of winning.
The clue I would say is that this game is so balanced that even the smaller things helps a lot. This game could easily have just 1 or 2 tiers if you'd where to compare it against say KF or most 2D fighters. By expanding it over 6 tiers for conversation the margins are really small.
If there were two tiers, though, it'd just be Gen Fu tier and Everyone Else tier.
Ah, they are in the side thread here
Could perhaps look them over though.
Hitomi vs
Akira - 5
Alpha152 - 5
Ayane - 5
Bass - 6 --> 5?
Bayman - 4 (in Hitomi's disfavor)
Brad - 5
Christie - 5
Eliot - 6 (in Hitomi's favor)
Gen Fu - 6 --> 4?
Hayate - 5
Helena - 3
Hitomi - 5
Jann - 6
Kasumi - 4
Kokoro - 5
Leifang - 5
Lisa - 5
Mila - 5
Pai - 5
Rig - 5
Ryu - 5
Sarah - 4
Tina - 5 --> 4?
Zack - 6 --> 5?
New crew:
Rachel - 5
Ein - 6
Momiji - 4
Leon - 5
Jacky - 5
These changes is basically based on Hitomi's nerf to the 236k strings which allows Bass, Gen Fu and Tina to get into her much easier than before, with more options, weakening the option for punch parry, etc. 6 against Zack I don't really get tbh, I feel it is at least 5, if not favorable for Zack. Same goes for the original score for Gen Fu, I feel it should have been 5 before the Hitomi nerf.
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genocide_cutter
New Member
I wonder why Momiji is so low?