Using Online Tournaments to push Offline Events?

[Game Over]

Having a list of potential commentators for the game able and ready to go DAY ONE (or as early as possible) will only help DOA5 to be taken seriously. We know DOA5 is coming, so there is NO POINT between now and release that is "too soon" to plan for this sort of thing.

IMO, there should be at least one online tournament within the first week following release, and at least one offline tournament within the first month following release ... and if either (or all) of those tournaments can have commentators in place, then it will show that the community is taking the game seriously, and will only help the chances of others giving the game a real shot to be taken seriously.

 

[DrDogg]

IMO, there should be at least one online tournament within the first week following release, and at least one offline tournament within the first month following release ... and if either (or all) of those tournaments can have commentators in place, then it will show that the community is taking the game seriously, and will only help the chances of others giving the game a real shot to be taken seriously.

If there's an online tournament within the first week that's taken seriously, it will be counterproductive... >_>

Assuming the game meets the current projected release date, I can guarantee an offline tournament within the first month.

 

[NinjaCW]

IMO games can have online tournaments but we don't need to live by them. If the online is solid enough for people to play and learn from it and level up then the game can grow within offline. There aren't a million online SF tournaments and there were a few when it came out but it was mostly offline. People WILL at the least try the game when it comes out so if you have gatherings or weeklies or whatever in your area make sure it is brought there so people can play. I'm in DE right now and NO ONE plays KoF but I go to MD and there is always one guy sitting there alone playing KoF (unless Steve H shows up) and other random people he plays that just want to try the game. We just need to not let online be a crutch for us

 

[Matt Ponton]

Chris, next time you're in MD hit me up, always looking to play some KOF.

 

[The HuBBs]

Yeah Chris we play KOF at my place. there's at least 5 of us that play plus my buddy jt old a kof/garou session every 3rd friday of the month.

 

[Game Over]

If there's an online tournament within the first week that's taken seriously, it will be counterproductive... >_>

Assuming the game meets the current projected release date, I can guarantee an offline tournament within the first month.

Serious, or not, online tournaments should still happen with DOA, especially while the community is small and scattered. If, or when, the community is big enough to where offline tournaments around the country can regularly draw like 16-32+ heads, then offline tournaments can be made the main focus. Starting out, though, IMO, it should be a split of 50/50, swaying either way depending on how/where the numbers are turning out.

Of course, even if online tournaments consistently draw more numbers, offline play should still be encouraged to every player. And opportunities for offline play need to be as consistent as possible in as many areas as possible.

 

[Rikuto]

You can't put too much emphasis into online play because scrubs get complacent and will refuse to travel. You essentially become an enabler for their shitty "online is just as good as offline" attitude and end up creating a hierarchy of online players claiming they are better than offline players, but never feel any need to prove it.

Offline play must always be the focus. Always. The online bullshit will happen regardless.

 

[UncleKitchener]

We got the same thing in the Tekken community, so it doesn't matter if you're an online warrior because no one really gives a shit. If you can't win 2 out of 3, then just don't bother. Again, no one cares if you're an online warrior.

If you live in Alabama or Atlanta or fucking Mexico City or whatever and there is at least one guy in your area, play him/her because that's a better alternative.

I'd rather bust my ass going across London to play someone in person than stay at home on a weekend and jerk off.

 

[Game Over]

You can't put too much emphasis into online play because scrubs get complacent and will refuse to travel. You essentially become an enabler for their shitty "online is just as good as offline" attitude and end up creating a hierarchy of online players claiming they are better than offline players, but never feel any need to prove it.

Offline play must always be the focus. Always. The online bullshit will happen regardless.

Some people will refuse to travel no matter what you do. But some players (particularly newer ones) do benefit from online tournaments as a way to build the confidence to go and transition to offline play. Then, there are some people who maybe have the willingness to travel, but only have the resources to travel to one or two offline tournaments in a year, and so use the online tournaments to maintain competitive form ... all flaws accepted.

JUST focusing on offline play, particularly at the start, is not the way to go. Online play can do well to supplement offline play. To ignore it, or treat it as something that entirely doesn't matter, would only serve to limit the potential growth of offline play. There are a number of community members here now who made that transition from online play to offline play, and it wasn't because online was ignored or offline was the main focus.

Online play is a resource. And while some may not respect it, it is there, and so, it should be utilized. What is not helpful is someone running an offline tournament, having it draw about 4-6 heads, then complaining about people not showing up. Now THAT (complaining) is something that needs to stop if significant growth is to seen. It doesn't help anything if new people skim community forums for tournament info/results, and see people being bitter over people not showing up. Showing up is always an option, not a necessity. And people who don't show, for whatever reason, should not be faulted for anything or made out to seem like they did something wrong.

Sure, no one really likes running tournaments with low turnouts, but consistency is crucial ... especially within a community where growth is desperately needed. Consistency builds structure, and structure will always benefit over time, as a game sees various spikes of interest/popularity throughout its life.



Also, if anything is to be a main focus at the start, it should be offline gatherings. Each region with at least 2 competitive players within driving distance to one another should host offline gatherings at least monthly (preferably bi-weekly). The more offline gatherings happening on a regular basis, the better it will be for the community overall. Again, consistency is key, and with consistency, new players can be encouraged to join-in on a gathering within driving distance to them, and without so much pressure to try to jump into traveling and paying for tournaments right away. And if certain players joining-in are predominantly online players, then this will only help them make the transition to offline play before going to offline tournaments.

Another point. Any regions that regularly get 4+ heads at gatherings should host tournaments on at least a monthly basis ... even if it is simple $1-entry "Winner Takes All" tournaments right there at the usual gathering location (so no venue fee). Or even FREE (no entry fee) tournaments run just for the fun of it! You got the game there. You got players there. Why not? Encourage competitive play at every opportunity.

 

[Rikuto]

Game over how the hell are you gonna "focus" on something like online play which is "easier" to do, and then expect people to make the transition? They won't. Last time we did it took more drama then a community should ever have to go through to evolve. Even my own mentality was a casualty of that war.

People can and will be complacent to do the bare minimum, the majority focus always needs to be on offline play, not online play. If you make the majority focus on online play people will NEVER see a reason to travel because the majority of competitive players are not doing that. I'm not saying online tournaments shouldn't happen, they keep interest going and they draw in new blood which is good, but if you make a bigger deal out of online then offline, or even hold them to the same standard, you will end up bastardizing the values a fighting game community holds.

Run your tournaments, i'm happy to support them. Don't make the game all about online play though, when you should always be hyping offline more than online. This isn't some 50/50 everyone can be satisfied nonsense. Online play is fun, and stupid, LOW LEVEL practice. It does not represent what the actual game is, and to encourage it just as much as offline is to basically telling people that they are equal to offline players, which they are not.

All that encourages is more drama, and nobody wants that shit. Run the tournaments, but DO NOT make a big deal out of them because they ARE NOT a big deal.

Let me ask you this, because it always seems to me like this is your mentality and you're only about three words shy of saying it.

Do you want a gigantic online fighting game league? IS that your vision?

Answer honestly, I will not blast you for your answer.

And I know full well you just want to do whatever it is that will get more people playing, generate more hype and result in more fun. So understand that I too am very much in the same boat on that.

 

[Game Over]

People can and will be complacent to do the bare minimum, the majority focus always needs to be on offline play, not online play. If you make the majority focus on online play people will NEVER see a reason to travel because the majority of competitive players are not doing that. I'm not saying online tournaments shouldn't happen, they keep interest going and they draw in new blood which is good, but if you make a bigger deal out of online then offline, or even hold them to the same standard, you will end up bastardizing the values a fighting game community holds.

I'm just gonna highlight this section because it seems there is a bit of a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying that the majority focus should be on online play. I'm saying that upon the release of DOA5, at the START, when it is unknown how turnouts will result, attention toward offline and online play should be 50/50 in order to give all potential players a chance to compete and join the community. If, after the start, offline tournaments are drawing enough heads (~16-32+) to warrant an increased focus, then it should ABSOLUTELY be increased over online tournaments. Online play should serve to supplement the offline play, and not the other way around!

Keep in mind I also said that one thing that really SHOULD get a majority focus is offline gatherings. I'd say offline gatherings, and consistency with them, is even more important than both offline and online tournament efforts as regular gatherings across each region will serve as the foundation for building the competitive scene. Through offline gatherings, new players can familiarize themselves with fellow community members near them, get accustomed to seeing and playing the game at a competitive offline level, and gain interest in traveling to offline tournaments alongside those members they met at the gatherings. And this is one way the offline tournament scene can grow.

It all can be made to connect and work well, though. Take SF for instance ... that community is in the best position of any community to drop online play as something that doesn't matter and focus almost entirely on offline play, but what do they do? They have online tournaments where the winner gets their trip to an offline tournament paid for! Then you've got players like Wolfkrone who started as predominantly an online player, made the transition to offline play as opportunities presented themselves, and yet still plays a significant amount of matches online to keep his experience up. I believe Latif, who eliminated Daigo and got 2nd at EVO, also plays a lot online. So it's not like people can't make the transition between the two ends of the spectrum.

Point being, instead of trying to treat things like a pseudo-Arcade Era where the only real opportunity to play the game competitively is at offline events, it's better to make good use of every resource available. To take a hint from the SF community, there could easily be online DOA tournaments where the winner is rewarded FREE (tournament and venue) entry to an upcoming offline tournament ... and if the winner can't attend, then the reward goes to the 2nd place player (if he/she attends the tournament). This will certainly help to boost offline turnouts by putting offline tournaments on the map for online players who may not keep up with everything on the forums, and by rewarding competitive players not with straight money or MS points (etc.) that they'll do whatever with, but with a free ticket to where we want to encourage players to go for the growth of the community.

And as for your thoughts on me wanting to see a gigantic online fighting game league ... I would like to see the game flourish in any way, shape, or form, be it offline, online, or both. As far as DOA5 is concerned, I am not sure at this time how involved I will be with the running of events. I am currently focusing on school and getting set along a solid career, so my time for gaming, and anything involving gaming, is naturally limited. Whether or not I personally run any online events is TBD. Would I complain if others step up and run online events themselves? No. And as long as the online events are well run and organized, I will support those efforts just as much as I would efforts for offline events. I see good on both sides. I acknowledge that online has its flaws, but I also acknowledge that not everyone has the resources to travel to a mass number of offline events.

There plain and simply has to be a balance struck between the two. Going to the extreme in either direction (all offline, or all online) is not the way to go. And, IMO, the one good way to find that balance is to keep open-minded, try pretty much EVERYTHING, see what works and what doesn't, and shift things accordingly. You can't try to force things one way all the time. Instead, it's usually best to just take what you're given, adapt, and build using what you have.

 

[Game Over]

And to add to that ... People will make choices about whether to show up to an offline event. That is a fact no matter what anyone does. But, IMO, it is too much for the community to try to "force" the issue by trying to make it where people HAVE to travel to offline events to play the game competitively. I believe that increasing opportunities will increase results. I also believe that one thing that held the community back was notsomuch that online tournaments existed as an alternative to offline, it was that offline tournaments lacked a fair amount of coverage to advertise themselves as the fun, exciting, and enjoyable events that the people who attend them know them to be!

One reason why successful communities are successful right now is due largely to effective coverage, and advertising, of the events. Pretty much every notable tournament has a stream in place, and pretty much every stream has commentators, and pretty much every commentator presents the game(s) as fun, exciting, and enjoyable to however many people are watching. Anyone who doesn't watch the streams live, can usually just go find recorded videos of the event and watch parts, or all, of it later. And adding to that, any upcoming tournaments that people on the streams know about are either mentioned, or directly advertised, right there on the stream MULTIPLE times throughout the tournament.

What DOA needs is exactly that! PRESENTATION. ADVERTISEMENT. PRESENTATION. ADVERTISEMENT. PRESENTATION. ADVERTISEMENT.

For DOA to grow, people need to know about it. And for people to know about it, they need to be able to regularly and easily find footage of it being played, and enjoyed, by many people around the country (and world). It doesn't really help much for events to happen, and the only thing to come from it is a few posts on a forum. There needs to be FOOTAGE from those events, and that footage needs to show that the game is FUN, EXCITING, and ENJOYABLE.

This is what would bring the best gains for DOA. Rather than trying to sweep online play under a rug.

 

[Game Over]

^^ Even people who never touched SF in their life would want to play the game after seeing this clip!!

 

[Awesmic]

Game Over makes some solid points.

If any of this weren't true, I never would've done better than last place at D.I.D. 7, much less go a round against Master. For the longest time, I've been selling myself short thinking I wouldn't have a shot 'cause I lacked any real offline experience... then all that happened. Thank God I understood some frame data. Hell, I should be thanking MeanMrMustard for even mentioning 6kp is -12 on block that one time we played a few years back...

 

[Rikuto]

motivational stuff

You are talking about the benefits, yes. You are generating hype for something as you always do....and yet still you have done nothing to address the issue of online player mentality being corrupted. This does not happen with street fighter because street fighter was huge before online play ever existed. online play is actually the minority in the case of street fighter.

I do like the concept of people who do well in online tourneys getting sent out to offline majors. That gives someone an opportunity to expand their horizons, and also creates a situation where a would-be online smack talker is forced to fight his offline counterparts thereby artificially shutting his mouth after he gets his shit pushed in. Problem is who is going to pay?

And if people are going to run these damn online tournaments again, then FFS please region lock them. West, Central Plains, East, etc. There is nothing more frustrating than playing an online tournament in the most horrendous of conditions. If you're going to try to bridge online players into the offline competitive scene, then give some incentive for offline players to do the same in reverse.

 

[Game Over]

I said nothing about corrupt online players because there is nothing TO say about corrupt online players. Some people will think what they want, and do what they want, no matter what anyone else does. Those people, however, are not the audience that online efforts would be mainly aiming for. If they play, great, if not, whatever. The players who matter are the ones similar to myself, Awesmic, Allen Paris, etc. who are players who start the game playing predominantly online, then transitioned over to playing and competing offline. It STARTS online for these players, so the more opportunities in place serving to facilitate the transition, the better it will be for the growth of the community.

For online tournament winners getting free entry to an offline tournament, this is something that can be easily accommodated right there at the venue by whoever is running the particular tournament. With the DOA scene being small, and funding in general being low for tournaments, things could start with just the tournament and venue fees being free for said winners. Getting to the event would still be their own responsibility to arrange. For this, though, and also going along with your call for region-specific online tournaments, what would work well is for region-specific online tournaments to reward the winners with a free ticket to an offline tournament in that region. EX: An online tournament locked to players on the East Coast would reward the winner with free entry/venue fee to an upcoming offline tournament on the East Coast.

ADD: Whatever turns out to be the biggest annual tournament for DOA should grant free entry/venue fees toward the winners of particular regional tournaments decided in advance. Another thing to consider would be granting these same players advanced seeding into the tournament, similar to what EVO did with players accumulating seed points by placing high at various majors associated with EVO.

 

[Rikuto]

It's not as simple as "well people gonna do what people gonna do, just ignore them and help out the rest".

Any action you take that helps promotes online play is going to impact the belief structure certain people have about competition, what is considered respectable and what isn't. When you increase the number of online tournaments you also increase the credibility it carries in the community. Most ignorant scrubs actually think online ranks from F to SS actually mean something. Why? Because it's there!

People like to say that online tournaments have influenced them in going to offline tournaments, but you know something? I bet if online tournaments had never existed, yal would've been a hell of a lot more curious and hyped to try one out offline -- especially since all the drama from online would've never existed to scare you away from it.

If online play is going to be a major component of this next game, it needs to be structured in such a way that it keeps these newbloods in check and deters any more online vs offline drama. No more civil war over that shit. We fought it, we won it, we're not fighting it again.

I'd love the two to co-exist but you have to engineer that shit carefully. There's going to be a ton of ego driven scrubs on the loose soon.

 

[Raansu]

GO, were you not around during DoA2u/early doa4 days? This community has already gone through this debacle and has grown past it. We do not recognize online as a valuable measure of skill. It is for casual play and casual play only and online tournaments are there just to have fun. None of the results will ever be taken seriously.

So the question is, why bring all this back? We moved past it, stop trying to bring it back. We are not going to cater to the casuals and handle things the way doac did. It's offline or bust. Casual conversations and online matches are all in good fun, but in the end, unless you play offline, stfu.

 

[Rikuto]

And then there is that.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Other 3D fighting game communities have already gone pass this whole online debacle. So why is online still taken seriously in this community?


Also, regarding commentary, have there ever been any decent commentary done on doa matches before? I'd like to see it for myself if they do exist.

For online tournament winners getting free entry to an offline tournament, this is something that can be easily accommodated right there at the venue by whoever is running the particular tournament.

Whoa there, you're expecting some major ass kissing here. I've never heard of such a thing and I'm pretty sure some people would slap me if I made that suggestion.