Using Online Tournaments to push Offline Events?

[Game Over]

Speaking from personal experience, only ... If DOA4 did not have a competitive online scene, then I VERY LIKELY would not have found my way to DOACentral, and would not have found out about the competitive DOA community in the first place! It was by way of guys like Hajin and XDest (and maybe Awesmic, I forget exactly when I first played Awesmic), that I found out about the DOA community and DOACentral, then, by way of DOAC, online tournaments, offline tournaments, etc. I first bought DOA4 because I liked DOA2:Hardcore, and liked that I could play this game against people online (note, I never owned an Xbox, so I entirely missed DOA3 and DOA2U). Competitive tournament play never even occurred to me until I encountered competitive players online. I also was not aware of competitive communities for other fighting games either, until I began looking them up after finding out about DOAC.

Now, I can't say that the experience for others is the same as mine, but I can say that for me, at least, the online efforts of competitive players lead to me joining the DOA community.

I will agree that whatever is done online has to be structured in a way as to connect online with offline play, and not split the two and cause unnecessary drama, but it seems that the value of online play to the community is a point where we will just agree to disagree. You see it as an enabler for certain online players to maintain a corrupt mentality, and I see it as a resource to utilize in drawing and developing new players. I suppose this is one place where the good has to be taken with a bit of the bad. As long as the community overall is smart about the planning and implementation of various online efforts, IMO, the good can EASILY outweigh the bad.

And let's face it ... EVERY online competitive game (not just fighting) has "certain people" online who are hot garbage, but think they are GDLK. They are simply the trolls of the online world and exist pretty much everywhere there is online multiplayer. These are not our audience. Very likely, these same people, if there was no online play, would not even bother playing the game outside of getting some laughs with local friends at random times.

 

[Game Over]

Other 3D fighting game communities have already gone pass this whole online debacle. So why is online still taken seriously in this community?


Also, regarding commentary, have there ever been any decent commentary done on doa matches before? I'd like to see it for myself if they do exist.

Quality commentary on a DOA game essentially doesn't exist. This is one key area that the community needs to work to establish.

Whoa there, you're expecting some major ass kissing here. I've never heard of such a thing and I'm pretty sure some people would slap me if I made that suggestion.

I know that EVO recently had a setup where players who placed high at various majors accumulated points granting them advanced seeding in the EVO bracket. Also, they had 2 online tournaments (one on X360, one on PS3) where the winners got their entry fees, travel expenses, and (I believe) hotel costs PAID FOR for the EVO offline tournament.

I'm just kinda taking the idea and suggested it in a way to interlink more online and offline events together.

 

[Game Over]

GO, were you not around during DoA2u/early doa4 days? This community has already gone through this debacle and has grown past it. We do not recognize online as a valuable measure of skill. It is for casual play and casual play only and online tournaments are there just to have fun. None of the results will ever be taken seriously.

So the question is, why bring all this back? We moved past it, stop trying to bring it back. We are not going to cater to the casuals and handle things the way doac did. It's offline or bust. Casual conversations and online matches are all in good fun, but in the end, unless you play offline, stfu.

If you consider fully what I've posted up, you'll see that what I'm suggesting is a way for online play to supplement offline play ... drawing in new players and facilitating their transition to offline play. I've also suggested that the main focus should be on regular offline gatherings in each region containing at least 2 competitive players within driving distance of each other. I'm all for supporting offline play. But I also see usefulness in online play as well, and see ways for the two to work together. Pardon me for being optimistic.

 

[NinjaCW]

While online is fine if you put too much emphasis on it then you are heading to the wrong world. Especially in the world of the internet, because in that world there is NOTHING you can tell an online player that can make him want to go out and play offline. He believes he is the best so he doesn't have to leave his home resources or not. It's fine to have online tournaments and as many as you want but as community leaders the second someone opens their mouth about how good they are online and how they beat everyone they basically get a "prove it offline or stfu about it". Even in SF there are a lot of known players that had to leave their homes or be showcased offline before getting any respect.Players like Wolfkrone and Latif who play primarily online had to prove their worth offline before ANYONE noticed them. You wouldn't even think they played online. . .hell when I won a monthly in MD when the original Super came out people asked me and i said online play. I knew what worked and what didn't so I was able to adapt.

Most of the online players that play DoA are younger and therefore ignorant to the world around them. They hear people tell them they are good because in reality they are decent but chances are (and this especially goes for 3D fighters) there are some really STRONG tactics online that can win you games that won't work nearly as well offline.

 

[Awesmic]

And if people are going to run these damn online tournaments again, then FFS please region lock them. West, Central Plains, East, etc. There is nothing more frustrating than playing an online tournament in the most horrendous of conditions.

Oh yes, there is.

It's even more frustrating if you travel to an offline tournament, only to find out the conditions and rules are not only horrendous (i.e. laggy monitors, mismatched patch updates on shared consoles, etc.). Not only that, but even if the settings were fine and you do well, people still give you flak for winning because you're not of a certain division, making your trip a rather bitter one. And sometimes - if they're salty enough - they'll even rig the brackets conveniently without you knowing just to make sure you don't win.

This happened to a friend of mine who will remain anonymous... for now.

 

[Rikuto]

Or being excluded from the brackets entirely, despite signing up.

Yea, that's a fun one...

 

[UncleKitchener]

I know that EVO recently had a setup where players who placed high at various majors accumulated points granting them advanced seeding in the EVO bracket. Also, they had 2 online tournaments (one on X360, one on PS3) where the winners got their entry fees, travel expenses, and (I believe) hotel costs PAID FOR for the EVO offline tournament.

I'm just kinda taking the idea and suggested it in a way to interlink more online and offline events together.

Any evidence for this? I could guess this was either a Street Fighter or a 2D online tourney, but I still find it hard to believe.

 

[Game Over]

Any evidence for this? I could guess this was either a Street Fighter or a 2D online tourney, but I still find it hard to believe.

Yeah, it was done for SSF4AE. Wolfkrone won on the X360 side, and Jewelman won on the PS3 side. Funny thing is Mike Ross got put ON BLAST after the PS3 tournament for making it to the final, then losing to a Honda player!

Here is a page with info on the PSN tournament:
http://evo2k.com/2011/01/02/evo-online-event-announced/

 

[DrDogg]

*SNIP*

Here's the problem. You're still stuck in 2005, before the big fighting game boom, before we had majors every other week, and when the DOA community were the only people interested in the game, and essentially refused to travel. Using that mentality, you're asking for an online tournament within the first two weeks because you're concerned that offline tournaments won't get a turnout.

I can tell you right now that people from other FGCs are looking forward to seeing what DOA5 has to offer. They will give the game a chance at the beginning. DOA5 will be featured at majors during the first month or two AT THE VERY LEAST, and the turnouts for these events will be 40+ players. I can say this with certainty because it's essentially what happened with MK. The game was given a huge boost because of the post-SF4 era of fighting games that offers so many opportunities for offline competitive play.

If DOA5 is good, we don't need the thousands of online DOA players who think they're the best of the best and never want to travel. We don't have to give them online tournaments and stroke/crush their egos in an effort to get them to travel. There will be people from other fighting game communities playing DOA5. There will be people who travel to NEC next year to play SFxT (or whatever game) and sign up for DOA5 as well, because it's brand new and they've been having fun with it (online or offline).

Unfortunately, I know there are going to be online tournaments at the beginning of DOA5. No offense to Allen Paris or anyone else who heads up the online tournaments, but you guys will need to stop online tournaments when DOA5 first releases. We cannot afford to have people from other communities thinking that online play matters in the DOA community. If you have an online tournament within the first month DOA5 is out (or even advertise a tournament during the first month), people will think we're taking it seriously. It doesn't matter how you present it or what you say about it, if there's an online tournament within the first THREE months of the release of DOA5, it's going to be looked down upon.

The first three months of DOA5 are crucial to the competitive scene. It's extremely important we do whatever we can to erase the preconceptions about the DOA community. That means no mention of online play aside from maybe a good games thread, and no online tournaments at all during that period!

I can think of at least three DOA5 majors that will take place at the end of the year (assuming the game is available). One west coast and two east coast events. If those events go well, expect to see DOA5 at Final Round in 2013 and a *possible* Evo nod. I guarantee if DOA5 gets at least 50 players are the first 2-3 tournaments (which is VERY possible), Evo will at least consider including it in 2013.

Bottom line... online should not even be mentioned until mid-2013.

Oh yes, there is.

It's even more frustrating if you travel to an offline tournament, only to find out the conditions and rules are not only horrendous (i.e. laggy monitors, mismatched patch updates on shared consoles, etc.). Not only that, but even if the settings were fine and you do well, people still give you flak for winning because you're not of a certain division, making your trip a rather bitter one. And sometimes - if they're salty enough - they'll even rig the brackets conveniently without you knowing just to make sure you don't win.

This happened to a friend of mine who will remain anonymous... for now.

This is not a normal occurrence. You need to speak up about this so we can either call out the community that did this, or call out the TO. This is not acceptable behavior for a TO and needs to be addressed.

Any evidence for this? I could guess this was either a Street Fighter or a 2D online tourney, but I still find it hard to believe.

It was Evo Online. This happened. There were also online tournaments for DEVASTATION and SoCal Regionals that gave the winner free travel and lodging at the events.

Doing things like this is fine in communities that understand online is not to be taken seriously. The Capcom community has a very clear understanding that online is useful for learning matches, but beyond that, offline is the only way to go. It's okay to have 5 online tournaments a year, but what GO is asking for is regular online tournaments, and that's a big problem.

 

[Game Over]

@DrDogg

Hey, if DOA5 is guaranteed to get a fair shot in offline play, then I'm all for dialing down online efforts for more offline efforts! I'm just here trying to pitch ideas for if it doesn't get a fair shot. And yeah, you're pretty much right about me thinking back on times when no one really gave a **** about DOA except DOA players. I'm not as familiar as you would be on the current views of FGC players toward the game.

I still think that if nothing else, it would be good to eventually (not necessarily early on) have regional-specific online tournaments reward the winners with free entry to corresponding regional offline tournaments. I think it's a cool idea and could help draw interest of some (not all) online players toward offline play.

 

[UncleKitchener]

I agree with Doc here. If you're gonna start with online tourneys when the next game comes out, then people are just gonna take the piss out of you and there won't be any influx of new players. Other communities have had online experience with their own games and they know how shitty it is for serious matches, so if you start with an online tournament, then they're not going to even buy the game at all.

@GO: Dude, that's still not a good idea, I'm telling you. If you want to organize an event with those rules, go ahead, but I don't think anyone else would do that besides you.

Yeah, it was done for SSF4AE. Wolfkrone won on the X360 side, and Jewelman won on the PS3 side. Funny thing is Mike Ross got put ON BLAST after the PS3 tournament for making it to the final, then losing to a Honda player!

Here is a page with info on the PSN tournament:
http://evo2k.com/2011/01/02/evo-online-event-announced/

It was Evo Online. This happened. There were also online tournaments for DEVASTATION and SoCal Regionals that gave the winner free travel and lodging at the events.

Doing things like this is fine in communities that understand online is not to be taken seriously. The Capcom community has a very clear understanding that online is useful for learning matches, but beyond that, offline is the only way to go. It's okay to have 5 online tournaments a year, but what GO is asking for is regular online tournaments, and that's a big problem.

Okay, that makes more sense since it's a 2D fighter and it's Capcom. I don't think anything like this would over occur unless the online infrastructure for 3D fighters become solid enough.

 

[Rikuto]

Unfortunately, I know there are going to be online tournaments at the beginning of DOA5.

Yea it sounds like the guys at TKP are pretty dead set on it, too. Let's just hope the damage stays minimal.

 

[UncleKitchener]

TKP and DOAC seem to be same thing now with whole merging business.

 

[Game Over]

Yea it sounds like the guys at TKP are pretty dead set on it, too. Let's just hope the damage stays minimal.

As long as offline gatherings are a regular occurrence, offline tournaments are a regular occurrence, and DOA5 gets on streams, it should work out.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Well, how can offline gatherings be regular if all these people do is sit on their asses and play online? It's not social at all. For this community of yours, every person counts, so don't you think you're kind of running this shit to the ground?

 

[DrDogg]

As long as offline gatherings are a regular occurrence, offline tournaments are a regular occurrence, and DOA5 gets on streams, it should work out.

The problem is that as we approach the release of DOA5 the other FGCs will be looking at the DOA community with a microscope. If you have TKP talking up an online tournament within the first month DOA5 is available, it's a huge red flag that the DOA community still thinks online play is viable. That's simply not okay.

It must be established that DOA players will travel and there will be offline events for the rest of the FGC to take a serious look at DOA5. You won't have people like Justin Wong playing DOA5 if he doesn't think there will be any offline tournaments for it. And yes, Wong has stated that he will play DOA5 is there are tournaments for it (just like he played MK when it hit).

I don't mind if there are online tournaments down the road for DOA5. I don't really have anything against online tournaments (so long as they aren't all the time). But if DOA5 *starts* with online tournaments, we aren't moving forward. We're going back to 2005. Even the MK community put a stop to a majority of online tournaments.

The DOA community has to give offline a chance, and holding online tournaments right out of the gate is not the way to do that.

 

[Rikuto]

I agree pretty much completely Dogg. If you wanna give it a shot, then good luck convincing Master not to do this. His own ambitions rarely align the needs of the community, and he certainly isn't going to listen to people he considers competition.

Best we can do is minimize the damage by not running online tourneys ourselves right away.

 

[Raansu]

The problem is that as we approach the release of DOA5 the other FGCs will be looking at the DOA community with a microscope. If you have TKP talking up an online tournament within the first month DOA5 is available, it's a huge red flag that the DOA community still thinks online play is viable. That's simply not okay.

It must be established that DOA players will travel and there will be offline events for the rest of the FGC to take a serious look at DOA5. You won't have people like Justin Wong playing DOA5 if he doesn't think there will be any offline tournaments for it. And yes, Wong has stated that he will play DOA5 is there are tournaments for it (just like he played MK when it hit).

I don't mind if there are online tournaments down the road for DOA5. I don't really have anything against online tournaments (so long as they aren't all the time). But if DOA5 *starts* with online tournaments, we aren't moving forward. We're going back to 2005. Even the MK community put a stop to a majority of online tournaments.

The DOA community has to give offline a chance, and holding online tournaments right out of the gate is not the way to do that.

Unfortunately we have sites like DoAW and TKP with jacked up mindsets.

 

[Rikuto]

I'm pretty sure people from outside the community wouldn't be looking at DOAW and acknowledging that as a competitive hive. At least.... god I'd seriously hope they wouldn't.

 

[Matt Ponton]

This is not a normal occurrence. You need to speak up about this so we can either call out the community that did this, or call out the TO. This is not acceptable behavior for a TO and needs to be addressed.

I believe he is referring to DID7. I'm not sure if everything he said applied there, but I think it was his first offline event. Manny had four setups for DOA4, but one of them was running 4.0 instead of 4.1. Yes, competitors played their matches on it without realizing it was running the wrong version.