Why do so many people dislike the VF cast?

[DestructionBomb]

I'm going to have to agree with you. Most of the time it just seems like unnecessary nit-picking at this point. You can argue technical logic up and down this forum, but I've never had any sort of clash with the VF cast in comparison with the DOA line-up. Yeah their motions are slightly different when they do stuff, but honestly that fades over time, at least for me it did. I have no issues playing against VF characters any more than I do with DOA fighters, so there's no advantage to using a VF fighter. Quite honestly, on many occasions, I have to work much harder for a victory with Sarah than people do with using DOA fighters considering that I often get smacked with less hits but for huge damage. An example was me spending 20 seconds working in some pressure on Ayane, and then all she had to do was one grab or launch me into the air to catch right back up or get ahead of me. People can argue that it's like that with any character and whatnot, but it takes less effort to work with most DOA fighters than it does with the VF cast. If there's any kind of advantage here, it's the value of learning complexity in fighting game inputs instead of mashing punch, punch, punch, punch, kick all of the time (not implying this to all DOA fighters here). To me that's really boring, which is why I love cancelling and pressuring with Sarah so much. It's much more rewarding personally.

I do see a lot of people saying that the VF cast are cheap and unfair, and to me that just sounds like an incapability to adapt to fighting them. Not even 3 or 4 days ago I didn't know how to even fight against Akira because he hardly shows up online, but yesterday (the last time we fought since a few days ago) I was in an intense match with a really aggressive and rather good Akira player and we both won the same amount of matches over the course of those few days. So I was able to adapt to fighting him pretty well then, albeit there are different Akira players out there who fight differently. I've been playing fighters like Helena, Christie and Kasumi for much longer, and I still have a really hard time fighting against them. Yes, different players bring different fighting approaches to their combat tactics, but I've fought all kinds of Helenas, Kasumis and Christies and still can't handle them all that well. Among the few Akiras I've faced in the past, the player recently was the best one I have fought so far. Good mix-ups, sidesteps at right times, grabs when I'm not cautious enough, etc. I think the rest can speak for itself.

While my main is Sarah and I use her about 90-95% of the time I play this game, there are times when I switch to my secondaries (Hitomi and Momiji, which mine are still decent-good at best honestly) and I end up having a much easier time fighting the DOA cast, and even end up winning with them a lot.

Lastly, I've noticed that someone mentioning that the VF's movements are distracting when fighting them. That just depends on the person, but at first when I got this game, I did think it was noticeable too, but not even that long into the game they felt more natural to me than the DOA cast; at the time I wasn't even using Sarah or any of the other VF characters. Besides a few characters, a lot of the DOA fighter's movements feel really exaggeratedly fast to me. Not fast in a sense that I can't handle it, but fast in that it feels like they are moving faster than they actually are. Could be just me, but to stress again, I don't have a problem visually with the two rosters together when it comes to movement and I honestly don't see why this is an issue, lol.

Well, I've said what I wanted to say.Anyone is free to dissent my thoughts if they want to.

Intelligent feedback, It's is quite refreshing to see your post. It has become a sort of stigma and plague here since a few of the people here try to determine on what's genuine and real in a character's style and how they visually appeared in the game in gameplay.

In fact, if you want to get technical, the VF characters are likely one of the most realistic characters due to the fact that they have actual moves based off the inherited fighting style (Tetsuzanko -- Iron Leaning Mountain etc.). The thing is, they are looking at it in a DOA perspective since Team NINJA converted some of their staple moves into juggles that likely wouldn't seem possible, but that is because they don't have actual staple juggling moves of that particular height, so Team NINJA made some for them. It's no surprise when you have people in here that majority of their fighting game time is within DOA so they believed the VF characters have some sort of invisible advantage when clearly it's nowhere near that case. I love debates like these because they have no way of backing it up since most of it is just a personal opinion and not an actual fact.

I mean, really. You have Zack going into a Blanka ball, Helena doing a downwards multiple slaps that has floating properties while you have people here determining on what's visually true to motion and realism lol. Case being, keep using Sarah to your heart's content Calintz. I treat her the same as a DOA character. No difference to me since it's still a DOA model type and bone movement.

 

[Calintzsan]

Intelligent feedback, It's is quite refreshing to see your post. It has become a sort of stigma and plague here since a few of the people here try to determine on what's genuine and real in a character's style and how they visually appeared in the game in gameplay.

In fact, if you want to get technical, the VF characters are likely one of the most realistic characters due to the fact that they have actual moves based off the inherited fighting style (Tetsuzanko -- Iron Leaning Mountain etc.). The thing is, they are looking at it in a DOA perspective since Team NINJA converted some of their staple moves into juggles that likely wouldn't seem possible. However, those particular moves that weren't exactly possible are actually much different in VF to where it looked even more impossible there. It's no surprise when you have people in here that majority of their fighting game time is within DOA so they believed the VF characters have some sort of invisible advantage when clearly it's nowhere near that case. I love debates like these because they have no way of backing it up since most of it is just a personal opinion and not an actual fact.

Thanks for the response and for your compliment. I'm not one to let biased thoughts lead my discussions. Sure, I get like everyone else by sometimes letting my personal feelings affect how I view things in the heat of the moment from time to time, but at the end of the day I stay rational in thought and not let that affect my overall view of things.

I actually agree. I like that the VF characters feel more realistic. I'm more of a technical fighter in preference even though I like flashy and nice-to-look-at moves as well. Something about the elegant, swift and finesse fighting styles appeal to me more than what Ayane does for example. Not that there is anything wrong with her fighting style, just that the VF characters appeal to me more than most of the other fighters. I said most, not all if anyone missed that. lol

Something that intrigues me is that people say that the VF cast don't belong or fit into the DOA games, when in reality DOA was inspired by VF in the first place (if I recall correctly), so to me the VF cast are, in actuality, very fitting to the series, regardless of how they feel about the characters.

In my case, DOA5U/LR is my first DOA game ever, and I've only ever played VF a couple of times (I think when the PS3 first came out) at Wal-Mart several years ago, lol. I don't look at it from a single game's perspective, so I honestly don't see the problem to the extent that everyone else does. I think people need to play VF for a little while and get used to it before making conjectures about "completely drafting them" into the DOA franchise "without changes to their mechanics in comparison to DOA's mechanics."

Now I'm not siding with anyone in particular, just that a lot of arguments or debates seem to focus on one side more than both.

Case being, keep using Sarah to your heart's content Calintz. I treat her the same as a DOA character. No difference to me since it's still a DOA model type and bone movement.

I will certainly keep doing so, as I also view them as part of the DOA cast too. I was hoping for a new VF to come out, but after reading some articles and such, it seems that might not happen unfortunately. I will eventually be getting VF5 (the newest iteration version), but idk, somehow I feel like I'll still prefer Sarah in DOA5 as she is now even though I like the stages, complexity, characters, and other various things in the VF games more. To clarify, I have seen quite a bit of footage of VF outside of only playing it a couple of times.

Btw, I saw your Akira in that video you posted, and I would certainly love to face you sometime. I'm really starting to enjoy playing against Akira as of late. XP

 

[Calintzsan]

I mean, really. You have Zack going into a Blanka ball, Helena doing a downwards multiple slaps that has floating properties while you have people here determining on what's visually true to motion and realism lol.

Lol, very true. Didn't know Ryu's Kamehameha variation was considered part of realism either. XD

I kid I kid, I'm not going to poke fun, but yeah you make a valid point.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Thanks for the response and for your compliment. I'm not one to let biased thoughts lead my discussions. Sure, I get like everyone else by sometimes letting my personal feelings affect how I view things in the heat of the moment from time to time, but at the end of the day I stay rational in thought and not let that affect my overall view of things.

I actually agree. I like that the VF characters feel more realistic. I'm more of a technical fighter in preference even though I like flashy and nice-to-look-at moves as well. Something about the elegant, swift and finesse fighting styles appeal to me more than what Ayane does for example. Not that there is anything wrong with her fighting style, just that the VF characters appeal to me more than most of the other fighters. I said most, not all if anyone missed that. lol

Something that intrigues me is that people say that the VF cast don't belong or fit into the DOA games, when in reality DOA was inspired by VF in the first place (if I recall correctly), so to me the VF cast are, in actuality, very fitting to the series, regardless of how they feel about the characters.

In my case, DOA5U/LR is my first DOA game ever, and I've only ever played VF a couple of times (I think when the PS3 first came out) at Wal-Mart several years ago, lol. I don't look at it from a single game's perspective, so I honestly don't see the problem to the extent that everyone else sees. I think people need to play VF for a little while and get used to it before making conjectures about "completely drafting them" into the DOA franchise "without changes to their mechanics in comparison to DOA's mechanics."

Now I'm not siding with anyone in particular, just that a lot of arguments or debates seem to focus on one side more than both.



I will certainly keep doing so, as I also view them as part of the DOA cast too. I was hoping for a new VF to come out, but after reading some articles and such, it seems that might not happen unfortunately. I will eventually be getting VF5 (the newest iteration version), but idk, somehow I feel like I'll still prefer Sarah in DOA5 as she is now even though I like the stages, complexity, characters, and other various things in the VF games more. To clarify, I have seen quite a bit of footage of VF outside of only playing it a couple of times.

Btw, I saw your Akira in that video you posted, and I would certainly love to face you sometime. I'm really starting to enjoy playing against Akira as of late. XP

Correct, the inspiration for another 3D fighter came from VF. DOA has it's own unique taste to where it has to be a tad different and more central control to a "having fun" crowd. Which is also great. I believe this is one thing VF needs to receive, as well as a new graphics engine to draw in a bigger crowd.

Regarding VF sequels, it's likely that it is in a stalemate of a momentary pause due to Yu Suzuki stopped being the director of the game and shifted to a co-support route to VF and having his own game studio. According to SEGA tweets though, a VF sequel can be in the works if the upcoming Shenmue sells well I hear (I mean, it should sell well. Game amassed over 2M) However, they are showing signs that if it does happen, it may be in the works of a arcade-cabinet type only instead of consoles. Who knows really.

Sure thing, although I have a PS4. Feel free to drop a request.

 

[Argentus]

Could be just me, but to stress again, I don't have a problem visually with the two rosters together when it comes to movement and I honestly don't see why this is an issue, lol.

On this point, I made the comparison before, but its just the jarring difference in fluidity, like roger rabbit moving alongside Bob hoskins, or bugs Bunny moving alongside Michael Jordan. It bugs me, and that's the primary reason I don't like the VFs.


As for realism, something else I don't like about vf is that I don't like how there's no...how do I put this...no recoil, no weight to their movements. There's no torque when they throw out strikes. Makes it look like they move way yoo fast, in an unrealistic way. For all of doas faults, that bugs the hell out of me.


Anyways that's why I don't like the VFs. Has nothing to do with being able to beat them or not. Christie and Ayane stomp on me, but that doesn't affect me liking Christie or hating ayane.

 

[Kronin]

As for realism, something else I don't like about vf is that I don't like how there's no...how do I put this...no recoil, no weight to their movements. There's no torque when they throw out strikes. Makes it look like they move way yoo fast, in an unrealistic way. For all of doas faults, that bugs the hell out of me.

Maybe this could be enough weight to their movements for you xD

 

[Lulu]

LoL...... the thing that bugs me is the recovery animation doesn't always coincide with the recovery frames..... take Sarah's Flash Kick For Example.... shes negtive -27 after she performs it when tou look at the animation she looks like she recovers as soon as her feet touch the ground..... its been a mission just trying to adjust that shes just standing there.... seemingly able to move but isn't.

Some of her Data doesn't add up sometimes.... like her Step.

 

[DestructionBomb]

LoL...... the thing that bugs me is the recovery animation doesn't always coincide with the recovery frames..... take Sarah's Flash Kick For Example.... shes negtive -27 after she performs it when tou look at the animation she looks like she recovers as soon as her feet touch the ground..... its been a mission just trying to adjust that shes just standing there.... seemingly able to move but isn't.

Some of her Data doesn't add up sometimes.... like her Step.

Jesus, some of you players exaggerate off the bat hard and it's not even Santa's birthday yet. You need to look at the initial recovery of the moves upon whiff and contact. If it's a move that recovers at 16/22/19/14 that is fast. But that is a Team NINJA thing. Not a VF problem. High Risk+High Reward character for total payoff.

If a move recovers at 22 raw then it was intentional. It's not the first time we all witness a situation where a move looks faster than it should be and upon checking "Oh. It says she recovers at 16 in speed, nevermind thank you game." Then when you come to the realization that 16 in general is fast and not exactly something you would react to. The thing is, people like to hit buttons, so of course you would be disappointed and assume recovery is not correct. Of course you would. I'm starting to see why Brute has a knack for these people in absorbing tolerance.

Witness the scenario between Raidou's 66K and Bayman's 66K. Same exact move, startup and type of hit within a NH situation to a block situation. You can low throw punish Bayman's 66K that leaves him at a base 23 for any sorts of low throw but Raidou has to be a standing throw with a block recovery yet it's the same exact move. Do you know why? because it was intentional from TN. This has nothing to do with it just being VF characters, this is mindless logic of players into believing they have some sort of correction as well as catering to a particular view. If there's anyone who has clunky terrible animation progression, it's Raidou. But yet most of his was actually intentional by Team NINJA as well as 7 others (Just not as big as him).

Trust me, you have a ton of characters that have high deceptive moves and are much more potent than these VF characters. Oh wait, the VF characters are in DOA format. Let me fix that. *Character roster*. The recovery animations of the moves are correct with the exception of certain whiffed OHs of the entire roster due to having characters having faster crouched and whiffed state than others, so it becomes randomized numbers, but this is not even OH we are speaking about. We are actually talking about visual animations and how characters have no impact.

 

[Argentus]

Jesus, some of you players exaggerate off the bat hard and it's not even Santa's birthday yet. You need to look at the initial recovery of the moves upon whiff and contact. If it's a move that recovers at 16/22/19/14 that is fast. But that is a Team NINJA thing. Not a VF problem. High Risk+High Reward character for total payoff.

If a move recovers at 22 raw then it was intentional. It's not the first time we all witness a situation where a move looks faster than it should be and upon checking "Oh. It says she recovers at 16 in speed, nevermind thank you game." Then when you come to the realization that 16 in general is fast and not exactly something you would react to. The thing is, people like to hit buttons, so of course you would be disappointed and assume recovery is not correct. Of course you would. I'm starting to see why Brute has a knack for these people in absorbing tolerance.

Witness the scenario between Raidou's 66K and Bayman's 66K. Same exact move, startup and type of hit within a NH situation to a block situation. You can low throw punish Bayman's 66K that leaves him at a base 23 for any sorts of low throw but Raidou has to be a standing throw with a block recovery yet it's the same exact move. Do you know why? because it was intentional from TN. This has nothing to do with it just being VF characters, this is mindless logic of players into believing they have some sort of correction as well as catering to a particular view. If there's anyone who has clunky terrible animation progression, it's Raidou. But yet most of his was actually intentional by Team NINJA as well as 7 others.

Trust me, you have a ton of characters that have high deceptive moves and are much more potent than these VF characters. Oh wait, the VF characters are in DOA format. Let me fix that. *Character roster*. The recovery animations of the moves are correct with the exception of certain whiffed OHs of the entire roster due to having characters having faster crouched and whiffed state than others, so it becomes randomized numbers, but this is not even OH we are speaking about. We are actually talking about visual animations and how characters have no impact.

That's all my deal really is

Character Animation is a big deal for me. Its why one of the two games I bought a ps3 over was Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm. Some of if not the most fluid animations I've ever seen.

 

[DestructionBomb]

That's all my deal really is

Character Animation is a big deal for me. Its why one of the two games I bought a ps3 over was Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm. Some of if not the most fluid animations I've ever seen.

Argentus, you really have to realize that majority of the DOA cast have more off the chart things to get away with on a visual point.

This is no offense to your character but look at this for example: Mila's 6PP on block is -11 but the recovery state ends at 18. That is fast and not something players would react to. You can throw that, but the visual point on contact makes it seem as if she was on ordinary safe moment there. Like she was at +0. In other words, that is a category of a "deceptive" move. Moves that look unnatural but yet unsafe and can escape certain things without realizing it. I can assure you one thing, *A lot of the characters in the roster have this type, not just the VF characters and they are much worse. (Free Canceling Christie/Alpha/Hitomi etc etc.."

 

[Lulu]

Jesus, some of you players exaggerate off the bat hard and it's not even Santa's birthday yet. You need to look at the initial recovery of the moves upon whiff and contact. If it's a move that recovers at 16/22/19/14 that is fast. But that is a Team NINJA thing. Not a VF problem. High Risk+High Reward character for total payoff.

If a move recovers at 22 raw then it was intentional. It's not the first time we all witness a situation where a move looks faster than it should be and upon checking "Oh. It says she recovers at 16 in speed, nevermind thank you game." Then when you come to the realization that 16 in general is fast and not exactly something you would react to. The thing is, people like to hit buttons, so of course you would be disappointed and assume recovery is not correct. Of course you would. I'm starting to see why Brute has a knack for these people in absorbing tolerance.

Witness the scenario between Raidou's 66K and Bayman's 66K. Same exact move, startup and type of hit within a NH situation to a block situation. You can low throw punish Bayman's 66K that leaves him at a base 23 for any sorts of low throw but Raidou has to be a standing throw with a block recovery yet it's the same exact move. Do you know why? because it was intentional from TN. This has nothing to do with it just being VF characters, this is mindless logic of players into believing they have some sort of correction as well as catering to a particular view. If there's anyone who has clunky terrible animation progression, it's Raidou. But yet most of his was actually intentional by Team NINJA as well as 7 others (Just not as big as him).

Trust me, you have a ton of characters that have high deceptive moves and are much more potent than these VF characters. Oh wait, the VF characters are in DOA format. Let me fix that. *Character roster*. The recovery animations of the moves are correct with the exception of certain whiffed OHs of the entire roster due to having characters having faster crouched and whiffed state than others, so it becomes randomized numbers, but this is not even OH we are speaking about. We are actually talking about visual animations and how characters have no impact.

Whoa.... easy there cowboy..... I was just bitching about what it looks like..... I'm not bothered by how negative it actually is. I just want the animation to match the number..... much like the DoA Characters.

LoL Sarah and Jacky's Flash Kicks are identical on paper but its just so much easier to punish Alpha's Flash Kick.... hell I think her's is slightly safer.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Whoa.... easy there cowboy..... I was just bitching about what it looks like..... I'm not bothered by how negative it actually is. I just want the animation to match the number..... much like the DoA Characters.

Except that it "does" match on numbers and papers. Comprehension is at your very own stake here. They have DOA numbers as well. Your point?

 

[Lulu]

Except that it does match on paper. Comprehension is at your very own stake here.

Not visually.....
Another one that buggs me is Sarah's Flamingo attack which all look relatively safe..... except for the Low Attacks which I just found out are highly negative.....

But I think the most confusing one is her step.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Not visually.....
Another one that buggs me is Sarah's Flamingo attack which all look relatively safe..... except for the Low Attacks which I just found out are highly negative.....

But I think the most confusing one is her step.

Deceptive moves at it's finest and the best thing about it: DOA characters have them too and they are much worse than the Sarah Flamingo concept.

The numbers are correct. She recovers faster than most within checking. Also given the fact that she is a button killer in a similar fashion like Leifang minus the OH parries that Sarah does not have. Visually? No real difference. Just your ordinary other character who have deceptive moves just like the rest. She just happens to be blue, tall and a blonde.

 

[Lulu]

Deceptive moves at it's finest and the best thing about it: DOA characters have them too and they are much worse than the Sarah Flamingo concept.

The numbers are correct. She recovers faster than most within checking. Also given the fact that she is a button killer in a similar fashion like Leifang minus the OH parries that Sarah does not have. Visually? No real difference. Just your ordinary other character who have deceptive moves just like the rest. She just happens to be blue, tall and a blonde.

Mine is dark pink and white. lol who even thought up that costume anyway.... it makes her look like some sort of Neo-Life Guard.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Mine is dark pink and white. lol who even thought up that costume anyway.... it makes her look like some sort of Neo-Life Guard.

Neutral with her. I suppose she draws a popularity crowd due to her sleek body or something. Those VF crowd (or here at the DOA community) might fap to her if she had Nyotengu's black bondage leather suit.

 

[Argentus]

Argentus, you really have to realize that majority of the DOA cast have more off the chart things to get away with on a visual point.

This is no offense to your character but look at this for example: Mila's 6PP on block is -11 but the recovery state ends at 18. That is fast and not something players would react to. You can throw that, but the visual point on contact makes it seem as if she was on ordinary safe moment there. Like she was at +0. In other words, that is a category of a "deceptive" move. Moves that look unnatural but yet unsafe and can escape certain things without realizing it. I can assure you one thing, *A lot of the characters in the roster have this type, not just the VF characters and they are much worse. (Free Canceling Christie/Alpha/Hitomi etc etc.."

That's fine but I'm not talking about frame data, but the actual animation of the moves. All characters have a few moves that animate stiffly, but it feels like the vfs entire movesets are that way, sans throw animations, which are disproportionately fluid.

Milas 6pp...haven't played since February, so ....that's the two straight punches, right? If the vfs had that move, there would be no "step in" animations, to go with it, the punches would just pop out with no leaning into it, or they would immediately step back after the punches, with no recoil. That's what it feels like the difference is between DOA and vf movements. The vf animations just feel...wrong.

I know ive said this before, but generally, it feels like the DOA characters move in arcs, while the VF characters move in straight lines. That seems to be the simplest way to explain it.

 

[Lulu]

Neutral with her. I suppose she draws a popularity crowd due to her sleek body or something. Those VF crowd (or here at the DOA community) might fap to her if she had Nyotengu's black bondage leather suit.

LoL probably..... I just wanted a character with Sabaki's and Parries in her Arsenal. It was original suppose to be Eliot... but you know... can't do Choryo therefore can't use Eliot...... if Sarah starts boring me then I'l have to switch to Leifang since her Parries require fewer steps to access..... plus shes slightly heavier so I won't get stun launched like a Rag Doll as much.

 

[xRELICXx]

I love the VF characters in DOA

 

[Calintzsan]

LoL probably..... I just wanted a character with Sabaki's and Parries in her Arsenal. It was original suppose to be Eliot... but you know... can't do Choryo therefore can't use Eliot...... if Sarah starts boring me then I'l have to switch to Leifang since her Parries require fewer steps to access..... plus shes slightly heavier so I won't get stun launched like a Rag Doll as much.

What system do you play on? I'll be happy to teach you Sarah anytime. Just don't get discouraged about using her since among the several people I've trained with Sarah, a few of them have done the same thing. The most common reaction is that she's too hard to learn, but in all honesty Akira beats her.

My first time actually using Akira I tried his combo challenge and managed to get 80% complete, but man that one frame knee is a monster. Couldn't get it consistently. Much respect to DestructionBomb and other Akira players that can do it regularly.