Xbox-One Revealed

TokyoHeat

Member
That simply isn't true. The eSRAM works similarly to the eDRAM of the X360, except eSRAM is faster and has a few different features. The eSRAM is connected to the GPU, to increase bandwidth for the GPU. The GPU communicates with RAM, CPU, and the eSRAM. The eSRAM mainly communicates with the GPU. Making it somehow pass through the normal RAM completely removes its purpose. Might as well not be there.

Not really. It'll lower its effectiveness, definitely, but it's still better having it than not having it. If its bandwidth is reduced from a 100GB/s to 50GB/s (random numbers), it's still 50 additional GB/s on top of the DDR3 bandwidth.

Again, it works similarly to the eDRAM of the X360. It's not there for size, it's there for bandwidth. It mainly works as a frame buffer, where you can free up the bandwidth of the main RAM to do other things. A 32-bit 1080p frame is typically 8.3MB. With 32MB, you can have three 1080p frames of 32-bit in there. It's almost four actually, missing around 1MB, depending on how much the 32MB actually is in bits. There's more than enough there to have a stencil buffer, color buffer and depth buffer at the same time. And sometimes these are even reduced to be 24-bit (particularly the stencil buffer), allowing for more freedom inside the eSRAM. A 24-bit 1080p frame is 6.2MB.

There's a reason why 10MB still helped for the X360. Although it wasn't large enough for 'free' MSAA x4, it still added flexibility. a 32-bit 720p frame is typically 3.7MB. When they reached the 10MB limit they resorted to tiling, to still make it useful. Same thing will probably happen with the XBO and its eSRAM.

Not really. GDDR5 latency is actually extremely high compared to DDR3. Basically, if the DDR3 latency is 20ns, it's 200ns for GDDR5. Doesn't seem like much, but your CPU thinks it's a lot.

I said the same thing, but, I also said that even though they are not that many, there are still games that are more CPU intensive than GPU intensive. Let me give you a few links, you can verify it yourself. Note that these are either different CPU speeds, or different CPUs all together, not based on latency. However, having latency is equivalent to reducing the clock speed, since latency stalls CPUs like crazy, reducing the amount of clock cycles that are actually doing something. In a few of these examples, you can literally get double the framerate with double the cpu clock. Ten times the latency can literally kill your performance by having half the framerate, and make it unplayable, despite the great GPU.

First, what the average game looks like when the CPU doesn't matter (look at the framerate):
Battlefield 3

And now what it looks like when it does:
Skyrim
Borderlands
SimCity
Crysis 3


Nothing I don't already know.

Read above, why the CPU might still be important for some games. Yes, most games will benefit from GDDR5, a select few might not. Is that so hard to understand? I also mentioned why DDR3 makes sense for the XBO since MS is pushing multitasking and three OSes running at the same time and stuff... Not great for graphics maybe, but it might be good for the overall experience, IF that's your thing. Aside from that, remember the little freezes the PS4 was having with multiple games at E3? It might very well be that the CPU was stalling and causing that, since the CPU needs to feed the GPU. No feed = no picture change. Better coding will probably fix it though... I hope.

Most? No.. Some. GPUs are great for parallel processing. CPUs still outdo them at serial processing. Parallel are stuff like physics. Serial is stuff like AI (nowadays anyway) and post processing. Read the first answer to the question on this page.

Again, nothing I don't already know.

No disagreement there.

I don't give my 'opinion' on something, if I don't know what I'm talking about. Why is it that people try so hard to avoid the possibility that the Xbox One might actually have an edge in some circumstances, even if it might be rare? We all know the PS4 has the advantage in general. We gain nothing by repeating that a thousand times. The interesting things are discovered when all the differences are explored, not just the ones that make the PS4 seem better.

Is that including AA? Any Links? (would like to read more up on it.) generally from what I have read there seems to be a mystery over the actual effectiveness and use of the 32mb esram in the xbox one compared to the situation in the 360, or if its even intended to function the same way.

Why is it that people try so hard to avoid the possibility that the Xbox One might actually have an edge in some circumstances, even if it might be rare?

When talking about games specifically what other real significant noticeable advantages can it have over helping bandwidth?
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
More rumors coming out

Kinect is not mandatory for the XBO

If this is true it would be possible for MS to make a cheaper version of the XBO. $399 without kinect $499 for kinect bundle.

Ya Jimmy Fallon was demoing CoD Ghost on his show and the xbone didn't have the kinnect connected...Oh and apparently xbone boxes will look exactly like PS3 boxes.

images


I doubt they will offer a version without the kinnect though. They seem very determined to make sure everyone has one so that way they can force developers to add something to their games that uses the kinnect. Just one more reason why I don't want the xbone.
 

Codemaster92163

Well-Known Member
I felt that the bundled Kinect was to ensure developers a market for games centered around the device, not necessarily to force them to work with it.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
Is that including AA? Any Links? (would like to read more up on it.) generally from what I have read there seems to be a mystery over the actual effectiveness and use of the 32mb esram in the xbox one compared to the situation in the 360, or if its even intended to function the same way.
I have no idea who told you that. It might have other uses, but as of now it simply seems to be for the same function of the X360. Aside from that, you need to refresh the eDRAM constantly, which means you'll be loading the same thing multiple times. eSRAM doesn't have that, which gives it another advantage over eDRAM. Try this:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6972/xbox-one-hardware-compared-to-playstation-4/3

When talking about games specifically what other real significant noticeable advantages can it have over helping bandwidth?
Not much that I know of really. Bandwidth is its main function. But it can be used to improve lighting. If it wasn't for the eDRAM in the X360, its lighting in all games would've sucked more than it did, although I don't know the exact details of how that works. PS3 almost always had superior lighting to the X360 in most games, but due to the eDRAM, the Halo games had great lighting, albeit at the expense of resolution in the early years. Same goes for games like Alan Wake. Another use would be alpha compositing, which basically shows transparency in objects. Other than that, there either aren't any, or I don't know of them.

MS seems to have wanted to follow the same trend, since developers worked with that architecture already. Sony's console is simply more straightforward. If the developers do it right, by simply making the game GPU heavy rather than CPU heavy like most games, CPU stalling won't be an issue. Post processing will probably be used less on the PS4 than on the PS3, and a lot more prevalent on the XBO. That can also factor in on how good a game looks.
 

RhythmikDesigns

Active Member
Yeah the guys who became blinded DRM fangals after MS' intial announcements and clarifications were clueless.

I can remember where I read the article, but it was with one the xbox engineers describing the feature as the ability to for multiple family members to play the game at once, once it had be stored to the cloud. Could have been a lie though. But according to the Corporate VP, Family sharing wasn't going to be limited to only demos. So who knows? Doesn't matter now.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06/21/on-xbox-ones-social-network-canceled-family-share-demos
 

TokyoHeat

Member
I have no idea who told you that. It might have other uses, but as of now it simply seems to be for the same function of the X360. Aside from that, you need to refresh the eDRAM constantly, which means you'll be loading the same thing multiple times. eSRAM doesn't have that, which gives it another advantage over eDRAM. Try this:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6972/xbox-one-hardware-compared-to-playstation-4/3

Not much that I know of really. Bandwidth is its main function. But it can be used to improve lighting. If it wasn't for the eDRAM in the X360, its lighting in all games would've sucked more than it did, although I don't know the exact details of how that works. PS3 almost always had superior lighting to the X360 in most games, but due to the eDRAM, the Halo games had great lighting, albeit at the expense of resolution in the early years. Same goes for games like Alan Wake. Another use would be alpha compositing, which basically shows transparency in objects. Other than that, there either aren't any, or I don't know of them.

MS seems to have wanted to follow the same trend, since developers worked with that architecture already. Sony's console is simply more straightforward. If the developers do it right, by simply making the game GPU heavy rather than CPU heavy like most games, CPU stalling won't be an issue. Post processing will probably be used less on the PS4 than on the PS3, and a lot more prevalent on the XBO. That can also factor in on how good a game looks.

Beyond3d. Do you believable that was really a smart design choice considering the Situation they are in now with heat, yields, die size per power/efficiency, and price. Sony did say that they considered using esram early on but felt that design had issues. I believe there is a reason ms canceled their architectural panel and is avoiding spec talk like the plague.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
Is this a sign that Sony screwed up again?

Nah. I don't think it would be that significant, as long as developers make the games GPU heavy. The exclusives will definitely be doing that. The PS4 will probably easily beat the XBO in terms of physics for example (graphics probably as well). So we can expect some exclusives to make use of that feature, and maybe some multiplats will also show them on the long run. So for gaming alone, it's a great design. That is Sony's vision too. Gaming first, rest second.
However if we have a game where we need 20 enemies at the same time with great AI and them working together and so on, the XBO might have the advantage since its CPU might be more efficient due to the DDR3. Assuming the consoles have practically the same CPU that is. If I would have to take a guess, I would say 75-80% of games would end up better on the PS4, while 20-25% will end up better on the XBO. It might also mean, that in the long run, the PS4 will be more limited with its software features (not games, but other stuff) than the XBO. I expect XBL to win over PSN over time again. Not surprising since MS is a software company. Sony can still keep up depending on how much free stuff they give. MS is a bit less flexible in that regard. They ask you to pay for almost everything.

Beyond3d. Do you believable that was really a smart design choice considering the Situation they are in now with heat, yields, die size per power/efficiency, and price. Sony did say that they considered using esram early on but felt that design had issues. I believe there is a reason ms canceled their architectural panel and is avoiding spec talk like the plague.

PS4 is probably a smart design choice for Sony, and the XBO is for MS too in a way. Sony made developers very happy after the complexity of the PS3, so they'll jump on board easily. The XBO... I don't think they expected to have yield problems with eSRAM. In terms of just the performance and architecture, I think it's a good enough design. In terms of reliability, not so sure. They already had the RROD fiasco so.. Maybe they should have expected some problems. They needed something a bit simpler. However GDDR5 is hard to get by and expensive, so, I think it was a practical choice for them. Maybe the GDDR5 plus Kinect would make the console too expensive? Imagine if it would be $600 lol. They could've also gone for GDDR4 or GDDR3, but they went with DDR3 instead. Maybe they were aware of the implications for the CPU, and would ruin the speed of its complicated OS. There are many explanations for their design. MS and Sony have different visions, so, I guess time will tell.

A little rant to follow, that's not relevant to what I wrote above lol. I'm now back to PC gaming. The only reason I got a console was for the fighting games that the PC lacked back in the day (and honestly still lacks). I then got carried away and bought all my games for the console. When I noticed that neither console was now backwards compatible, I went back to PC and I realized how retarded it was to buy so many games on the console. On PC backwards compatibility is hardly an issue. I can even play DOS games if I want to. With consoles you'll have to keep your old one, and if it bites the dust you're screwed. Or, you need to pay again to play the games you already own, like Sony is doing with the PS4. Plus you have control over your machine's performance/graphics with a PC... Only reason to own a console for a hardcore gamer is if you care enough about the exclusives. I doubt casuals will worry about which one has the best specs and such, and ultimately, they probably determine a console's success more than the hardcore gamers.
 

TokyoHeat

Member
Nah. I don't think it would be that significant, as long as developers make the games GPU heavy. The exclusives will definitely be doing that. The PS4 will probably easily beat the XBO in terms of physics for example (graphics probably as well). So we can expect some exclusives to make use of that feature, and maybe some multiplats will also show them on the long run. So for gaming alone, it's a great design. That is Sony's vision too. Gaming first, rest second.
However if we have a game where we need 20 enemies at the same time with great AI and them working together and so on, the XBO might have the advantage since its CPU might be more efficient due to the DDR3. Assuming the consoles have practically the same CPU that is. If I would have to take a guess, I would say 75-80% of games would end up better on the PS4, while 20-25% will end up better on the XBO. It might also mean, that in the long run, the PS4 will be more limited with its software features (not games, but other stuff) than the XBO. I expect XBL to win over PSN over time again. Not surprising since MS is a software company. Sony can still keep up depending on how much free stuff they give. MS is a bit less flexible in that regard. They ask you to pay for almost everything.



PS4 is probably a smart design choice for Sony, and the XBO is for MS too in a way. Sony made developers very happy after the complexity of the PS3, so they'll jump on board easily. The XBO... I don't think they expected to have yield problems with eSRAM. In terms of just the performance and architecture, I think it's a good enough design. In terms of reliability, not so sure. They already had the RROD fiasco so.. Maybe they should have expected some problems. They needed something a bit simpler. However GDDR5 is hard to get by and expensive, so, I think it was a practical choice for them. They could've also gone for GDDR4 or GDDR3, but they went with DDR3 instead. Maybe they were aware of the implications for the CPU, and would ruin the speed of its complicated OS. MS and Sony have different visions, so, I guess time will tell.

I was picking more so towards the fact that their design ended up with a rather large transistor count yet less graphical performance, a larger body, heat issues, yield problems, and a higher cost.
 

Chaos

Well-Known Member
Nah. I don't think it would be that significant, as long as developers make the games GPU heavy. The exclusives will definitely be doing that. The PS4 will probably easily beat the XBO in terms of physics for example (graphics probably as well). So we can expect some exclusives to make use of that feature, and maybe some multiplats will also show them on the long run. So for gaming alone, it's a great design. That is Sony's vision too. Gaming first, rest second.
However if we have a game where we need 20 enemies at the same time with great AI and them working together and so on, the XBO might have the advantage since its CPU might be more efficient due to the DDR3. Assuming the consoles have practically the same CPU that is. If I would have to take a guess, I would say 75-80% of games would end up better on the PS4, while 20-25% will end up better on the XBO. It might also mean, that in the long run, the PS4 will be more limited with its software features (not games, but other stuff) than the XBO. I expect XBL to win over PSN over time again. Not surprising since MS is a software company. Sony can still keep up depending on how much free stuff they give. MS is a bit less flexible in that regard. They ask you to pay for almost everything.



PS4 is probably a smart design choice for Sony, and the XBO is for MS too in a way. Sony made developers very happy after the complexity of the PS3, so they'll jump on board easily. The XBO... I don't think they expected to have yield problems with eSRAM. In terms of just the performance and architecture, I think it's a good enough design. In terms of reliability, not so sure. They already had the RROD fiasco so.. Maybe they should have expected some problems. They needed something a bit simpler. However GDDR5 is hard to get by and expensive, so, I think it was a practical choice for them. Maybe the GDDR5 plus Kinect would make the console too expensive? Imagine if it would be $600 lol. They could've also gone for GDDR4 or GDDR3, but they went with DDR3 instead. Maybe they were aware of the implications for the CPU, and would ruin the speed of its complicated OS. There are many explanations for their design. MS and Sony have different visions, so, I guess time will tell.

A little rant to follow, that's not relevant to what I wrote above lol. I'm now back to PC gaming. The only reason I got a console was for the fighting games that the PC lacked back in the day (and honestly still lacks). I then got carried away and bought all my games for the console. When I noticed that neither console was now backwards compatible, I went back to PC and I realized how retarded it was to buy so many games on the console. On PC backwards compatibility is hardly an issue. I can even play DOS games if I want to. With consoles you'll have to keep your old one, and if it bites the dust you're screwed. Or, you need to pay again to play the games you already own, like Sony is doing with the PS4. Plus you have control over your machine's performance/graphics with a PC... Only reason to own a console for a hardcore gamer is if you care enough about the exclusives. I doubt casuals will worry about which one has the best specs and such, and ultimately, they probably determine a console's success more than the hardcore gamers.
Before I purchase the PS4 & Xbox 1, im getting a Xbox 360 than build my own PC. I hope DOA5U, VF5: FS & Tekken Tag 2 would end up being available on PC someday but I doubt it. :(
 

Fiend Busa

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Before I purchase the PS4 & Xbox 1, im getting a Xbox 360 than build my own PC. I hope DOA5U, VF5: FS & Tekken Tag 2 would end up being available on PC someday but I doubt it. :(

I would wait to build a pc, some new gpus coming from nvidia and amd later this year
 

TokyoHeat

Member
Before I purchase the PS4 & Xbox 1, im getting a Xbox 360 than build my own PC. I hope DOA5U, VF5: FS & Tekken Tag 2 would end up being available on PC someday but I doubt it. :(


Keep an eye on Amazon deals around the holiday season. Prices there are very good for PC building.
 
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