DOA5LR You're Mashy

[His Reverence]

Ladies and gentlemen, the purpose of this post is to serve as an alternate perspective. I am certainly not claiming to know the intricacies of the system better than you fine folks - many who are certainly better players or simply more educated in terms of mechanics.

That all being said, a few things have crossed my mind as of late. I am pretty sure that most have us have either accused or have been accused of "mashing." I see posts regarding the term rather frequently and I have definitely been guilty of it.

Let us define "mashing" prior to continuing: it is 1) attacking out of disadvantage and 2) hitting (apparantly) random buttons without (apparently) any forethought. Typically, a newer player would be accused of mashing, considering that they don't necessarily have suffice experience in the game mechanics in order to promptly cultivate a strategy. The gameplay of this newer player may be incoherent.

There are other situations where players with legitimate experience accuse one another of said 'mashing.' Often times, you hear "you mashed (insert move) and beat out my (insert move), even though I was +3" or "you mashed out of my throw punish."

It is certainly frustrating when things aren't consistent online. That is the very nature of online. The question becomes, is online to blame or is the player you are facing? Let's dive into the minds of both parties for a minute and describe a hypothetical situation as an example:

Player 1 - plays Momiji, stands and blocks Ayane's 6PK. Goes for a throw punish using nuetral throw. Rather than getting the punish, player gets hit by a jab. Player 1 understands the mechanics of the game very well and feels cheated. He becomes frustrated and almost involuntarily thinks "mash."

Player 2 - plays Ayane. Player 2 throws out 6PK and it gets blocked. The player also understands the system very well and knows that 6PK is unsafe on block. He also knows that 6PK can only be punished by a standing neutral throw - and thus, understands that there is a possibility his opponent may incorrectly input 6T or 4T. The player attempts to test his luck and throw out a jab as opposed to standing there and waiting to be thrown.

Players 1 and 2 do not have the same thought processes. Player 1 very well knew to punish 6PK but was Player 2 really at fault for the failed punish? Player 1 may have slightly delayed the throw, or - considering Player 2's perspective, may have possibly done the wrong throw.

The question now is, does Player 2 have an obligation to stand there and take the throw, with the assumption that the timing and inputs of the throw are correct? If he does so, does he risk being thrown by a throw that does more damage than otherwise 'permitted?'

Food for thought.

It is definitely frustrating when things like this occur, considering the time you've spent training in the game and learning the fine details. When you simply "feel" that you have been cheated out if something that you were possibly entitled to, it can potentially harm your entire momentum - of the match, of the set, possibly of the day, possibly of the week. The frustration builds up and spreads, making it progressively more difficult to understand the mentality of the opponent.

The frustration manifests into insults and other poisonous behaviors. One of which is the accusation that Player 2 'mashes' and does not understand the mechanics of the game. The accusation becomes a scapegoat. Whether it is the unknowing mistakes of Player 1 or the flaws of online - is it really Player 2 that is at fault for these scenarios?

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As we learn the mechanics of DOA, we simultaneously build up a structured perception of how the game is "supposed" to be played.

'If you are not playing the game how I want you to play the game, you do not know how to play the game.'

You internalize the percieved "right way" and demean anyone who does not necessarily play by your rules. Who is genuinely at fault? Perhaps we all ought to be more elastic in our view of the game.

When we are more perceptive and empathetic, we negate toxicity.

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Here is hoping that the example scenario helped at least attempt to understand the opposite side. We know that bullshit happens online but we must not blame the opponent (Sky God knows I have.) I seek to better myself in this regard and the first step is opening my mind.

If there is anything that frustrates you, think about why your opponent is doing what they are doing, try to genuinely understand and not displace your frustrations. If online is pissing you off then play offline. Nonsense is the nature of the beast online. Regardless, do not shift blame unto another player.

It may help you grow in the end.

 

[Tenryuga]

Moral of the story: If want to play honest / dishonest be prepared for the consequences of each because each style of play does have them in DOA IMO regardless of if you are playing online or offline.

What you mention here I like to call "strategic mash." Usually strikes / crushes or launchers done from disadvantage on read against incoming highs or throws. I approve of this as this is making use of the triangle system and the intended properties of crush attacks. It's a high risk - high reward type of move here.

There is that and then there is just the plain mash. That is when the frustration begins for me lol because it is far too strong on netplay. Stuff like free cancel offense (which is actually a legit thing) becomes hard to deal with because counter-poking on reaction becomes weaker on netplay so you have to rely more on reads and respect way more than you would actually have to respect outside of netplay.

 

[ChaolanLegacy]

This is a very good read.This is completely true,especially when the connection is too laggy in order to throw punish,and play accordingly,however,people usually blame players that they are "mashing" or "cheating",or "Your X Character is just cheap bullsh*t!(Pardon my choice of word here) because they THINK they are losing to a guy who should be weak,cause they are F ranked players,or they just so full of themselves that they think everyone's free for them.Interestingly enough,majority of my ragemails that I've got so far were about my style of play.I like to play a bit of a spacing game here and there,just to test how impacient can my opponent get,and there are instances where they do hang themselves....and they are raging because of that.If people would be able to handle a loss,calm down for like 5 minutes and focus on the match rather than blaming the opponent for their loss,maybe they'd do better,and who knows,they might even enjoy the game a lot more then.

 

[GrapeInfernal]

I'm wondering, what exactly people call mashing? Literally random button input or when you're just trying here and there (separate hits, attempts of making combo when forgot etc.), without any tactics?

 

[ChaolanLegacy]

I'm wondering, what exactly people call mashing? Literally random button input or when you're just trying here and there (separate hits, attempts of making combo when forgot etc.), without any tactics?

Mashing is literally random button input,well,in case of the new players mainly,because they don't know what attack each and every button input would do,so they press them randomly,in other cases,mashing(obviously one or two buttons on the pad/stick,not all of them) is actually a viable option in some fights,like with the above mentioned example of the player 1 being the Momiji player and player 2 being the Ayane player.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Moral of the story: If want to play honest / dishonest be prepared for the consequences of each because each style of play does have them in DOA IMO regardless of if you are playing online or offline.

What you mention here I like to call "strategic mash." Usually strikes / crushes or launchers done from disadvantage on read against incoming highs or throws. I approve of this as this is making use of the triangle system and the intended properties of crush attacks. It's a high risk - high reward type of move here.

There is that and then there is just the plain mash. That is when the frustration begins for me lol because it is far too strong on netplay. Stuff like free cancel offense (which is actually a legit thing) becomes hard to deal with because counter-poking on reaction becomes weaker on netplay so you have to rely more on reads and respect way more than you would actually have to respect outside of netplay.

I was going to write something similar that Tenryuga wrote. (Almost the same thing, a little bit different..but generally the same.) Deja vu moment.

EDIT: Also adding the note that intelligent players are victims to this sort of scenario. Believe it or not but you also have players that do take most of the stuff advantage to a degree. An example of this situation is when you have X player enabling a move that's -11 on block. In that instance, you perform a corresponding throw to punish the player for being unsafe..in a latency issue the throws whiffs but the resulting feedback will also show that the X player "tried to duck" after being -11 on block. In a general sense, you are not even allowed to duck from that moment..but it's momentary issues like these that can quickly cause confusion to determine whether it was online random delay, timing or if a player really tried to take advantage of it. Majority of the cases, it's players getting away with things that is likely not intentional or is intentional. To truly determine that..you have to watch the player and check how the connection is fairing up...if X player constantly tried to duck then off the bat to avoid planned damage then we already know the type of player we are dealing with. (also mentioning the fact that some characters have a fast initial recovery speed that can carry them and are even harder to eliminate with corresponding moves to keep them in check.)

I don't use the term "Mashy" as this has different meanings to it (Which Tenryuga pointed it out.). It's more of a "Getting away with it." type saying. Won't exactly know until you find out from X player and it's not always strike move related.

My gripe with certain players using the word mash is when it's used at inconvenient times. I can perform a neutral GB and proceeded with a i10 jab while X player proceeded with a i12 mid and then to be called by the word "Mash."...the intelligent player X player (opponent) knows it's a neutral GB but he wants to yell out mash anyway. It's moments like these to where they expect you to just sit there and block and not take advantage from the situation. I haven't been called this in awhile..but it gets me excited to having an argument when I hear this word called to me for the wrong reasons. Literally, if I ever get called this..know that I will scan that entire player so deep that he would be shocked to find out I even knew his button layout.

But yeah jokes aside, I don't want to place a sort of bible thumping method here but there are moments to where you want to tell a player "You got away with that." in a positive manner and to also help them not do it again against someone who won't fall for that shit and believe you for once that the outcome was generally in my favor and also hopefully make them hit the lab to say "Oh..he was right..he was safe here...huh." Of course, most won't believe that because they actually managed to beat Bomb, who cares about all that. *Not directed to new players, but players in general to where they can accept and see where I am coming from here.*

 

[Rich Nixon]

Moral of the story: If want to play honest / dishonest be prepared for the consequences of each because each style of play does have them in DOA IMO regardless of if you are playing online or offline.

What you mention here I like to call "strategic mash." Usually strikes / crushes or launchers done from disadvantage on read against incoming highs or throws. I approve of this as this is making use of the triangle system and the intended properties of crush attacks. It's a high risk - high reward type of move here.

There is that and then there is just the plain mash. That is when the frustration begins for me lol because it is far too strong on netplay. Stuff like free cancel offense (which is actually a legit thing) becomes hard to deal with because counter-poking on reaction becomes weaker on netplay so you have to rely more on reads and respect way more than you would actually have to respect outside of netplay.

Very insightful. Especially what you stated in regards to free canceling.

 

[ninemil]

I've never blamed the opponent, even when they're abusing an obvious easy win, (see anything Alpha or Christie on the vanilla 5 launch netcode, for example.) If there's a flaw with anything, it's the game mechanic, or the network system. I'd rather vent at TN (and potentially get it fixed,) than at an opponent.

The only 'expected' way for the game to play is relative to the network conditions and the patch, at the time.

If it's in the game, it's permitted, imo. What we need to question is whether what's in the game is correct or not, rather than whether another player should/could have used it.

 

[ShinMaruku]

When people bitch about Mashing I tell them Daigo mashes DP. People never belive , me, but look at the man when it's time to dp he mashes it. Trick is he mashes at the right time. Also EVERYBODY mashes when under great stress. The great Zen master Jusitn Wong was put into mashing when Daigo and Tokido and infiltration get in his head. And of course Daigo and Infiltration mash dp.

 

[Tenryuga]

I'm wondering, what exactly people call mashing? Literally random button input or when you're just trying here and there (separate hits, attempts of making combo when forgot etc.), without any tactics?

^ This is the correct definition of mash. Like for example if you see someone do a jab into a something like Zacks 50+ frame move you know this guy is mashing his ass off and praying to the heavens something hits.

 

[Darkslay]

Very interesting topic, i find myself thinking about this a lot too, i feel its something relative to the knowledge people have to a specific character or theri experience in general, an example would be when i do 66K (-4, -3 in DS) an yet i they still try to throw punish, is that mashing? do i acuse them of mashing? i personally don´t judge it too much since i feel they´re using the ´´if it looks big and flashy, punish it´´ tactic but that´s just my opinion.

 

[tokiopewpew]

'If you are not playing the game how I want you to play the game, you do not know how to play the game.'

Best line imo, and it can be applied to 90% of all complaints you will hear from people online. However, even the attitude of some players who might understand the game mechanics and fighting game fundamentals very well becomes questionable and can be wrapped into that as soon as they try to indicate that your choice of moves and/or way of playing a characters is wrong, especially after they might have lost a game.

That's because there is nothing wrong with jabbing out of -5 disadvantage if the opponent uses moves with 25 frames startup speed in neutral or higher. That's because there's nothing wrong with using a move that is -30 on block as counterpoke as long as you don't get punished in any way for whiffing it. That's because there's nothing wrong with using stun > throw only to K.O. someone three rounds a row as long as he keeps spamming holds immediatly.

As longs as things work for a player to take the win, there is no single reason to call it cheap, mash, spam or whatever, no matter which character was played and which moves were used. And if you see someone complaining about that without having at least a small evidence that he's trying to give you constructive critique, you can be sure that he is not aware of the consequences and characteristics that come with the environment he plays on (online or offline) and is not, as Rev said, grown enough.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Very interesting topic, i find myself thinking about this a lot too, i feel its something relative to the knowledge people have to a specific character or theri experience in general, an example would be when i do 66K (-4, -3 in DS) an yet i they still try to throw punish, is that mashing? do i acuse them of mashing? i personally don´t judge it too much since i feel they´re using the ´´if it looks big and flashy, punish it´´ tactic but that´s just my opinion.

It's not exactly mashing. If they know it's -5 and they tried to throw and you hit a button, the opponent deserved to get bopped by it because the move in general was safe. "Mashing" is a strike related term. People also use the term out of context (Which is my gripe) as a way for you to stop performing a specific task. You also have players that expect you to just sit there and block and call out mash from a safe move or a neutral standpoint of enabling a move that has a strike speed faster than the opponent.

Mashing can also be the joke within the opponent to where he will always hit a strike button when you have a +12 advantage from a GB resulting in a delicious CH situation.

 

[Tenryuga]

^ What he said. If I know you are going to sit there on standing guard after safe moves I'm putting out my 12i throw. If you're gonna fuzzy all the time I'm gonna put out my low throw. Eventually you're gonna realize if you want the nonsense to stop you have to strike out of safety and if you don't then we can have fun playing this guessing game off a move that's supposed to leave you "Safe".

 

[GrapeInfernal]

Do you know any good players who don't know any mumbo jumbo of frame data and other theory? In music it works, but here?

 

[Tenryuga]

Do you know any good players who don't know any mumbo jumbo of frame data and other theory? In music it works, but here?

Depends on what you mean. Knowing frames or game theory is not necessary to do well on netplay or at a casual to low - intermediate level. When you start getting from the intermediate level to the players that consistently place top 8 they generally know frame data, understand the game theory or both. Scope of the knowledge varies from person to person.

 

[Darkslay]

I think you´re both right @Tenryuga, @DestructionBomb, i guess classic 2D fighters and games like tekken taught me to respect a safe move when it was thrown not to keep a constant offence.

 

[Tenryuga]

I think you´re both right @Tenryuga, @DestructionBomb, i guess classic 2D fighters and games like tekken taught me to respect a safe move when it was thrown not to keep a constant offence.

You should respect people when they have frame advantage or are outside of your attack range. Always remember that good defense is not simply sitting on block doing nothing however. A person that is sitting on block is not making any decisions. Players like this will get lit up because they will get very few chances to start their offense while the other guy has been running a train for 3 minutes because they allowed him to.

Blocking in any game serves as a method to prevent damage and buy a player time to figure out the best way to escape another players offense. In every fighting game risks must be taken to score damage as well as prevent it.

 

[Ritsuko]

Most everything in DoA is disadvantage on block, it just depends on how much of a disadvantage you're at, but if you're constantly attacking out of that disadvantage....well online or offline it can be easily called mashing. Difference is online netcode is so terrible you can get away with it. Offline, 90% of the stuff people mash out of online would never get away with it offline. That's how much of a difference the terrible netcode makes in this game, so naturally its going to piss people off. Its why I pretty much never play online. Waste of time.

Its not a matter of "your rules their rules." Its just a simple fact that the game is designed with specific mechanics, but online play can seriously skew that, and trying to play the game properly can be a test of patience online.

 

[akhi216]

lRegardless, do not shift blame unto another player.

This says it all.

My main problem is that I can't seem to figure out why I can't hold out of stun and block on wakeup on occasion. Also my guard fails to get put up when backing away using 4 vs his and mids, and sometimes I can't block after being force teched. I'll usually just curse out the game or take a break from it.