Do you want a tournament scene?

[Chris Harris]

You honestly are missing the entire point of what people are trying to change. I mean if people showed up in droves for the way the system was/is then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

However that's not the issue so I (as well as other players) are trying to find a way that will make more "competitive" players come out and play the game. Having an option that does more damage than the attacker (guess or not) and having it at every point of the match except when you're being thrown or juggled is overly difficult to swallow as a player.

There has to be a limit put on such a strong DEFENSIVE tool.

While KoF and SC have lower turn outs it is still higher than DoA has ever been. Not to mention they have actual followings from the community with people who play it over seas or in other areas. SC may not be the biggest thing here it is amazing over seas. Again though they still have a solid foundation of a community that WILL show up to play the game. The sooner you realize the true difference the better off you will be.

You want the game to stay the same without even realizing it's faults or you want the game to stay in a realm were "anyone" can win. Taking out the holds on some level and taking it away for at least ONE attack or making it so you get punished HARD when it's used is the most logical way to go with it. The tool is without a doubt the strongest tool in the game because of the damage output you get for pressing u/b+free lol.

Do you seriously think it's ok for someone to have a 40-100+ damaging attack at their disposal at all times with no backlash?

*edit*
And the fighting does get overly stale. In DoA 4 it became seriously throw/launcher/hold. A few people used other attacks but for the most part it was crushes constantly thrown out. Unique is good when it's working not when it's failing.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

Actually, I just found this out the other day...It's either Lisa or Tina or both in DoA4 that have a grab that pushes towards the wall(depending on the wall you will bounce back) and I've actually COUNTERED out of the grab before I hit the wall several times. My character literally stopped his/her self from hitting the wall by countering out of the animation.... So you CAN counter out of at least 1 or 2 grabs that I know now.

 

[MASTER]

I want it to be tournament viable!

These are just some simple things i would do to make that happen.

A few More 2in1's, and 3in1's that will limit hold situations and most likely guarantee strong wall combos(or dangerzone ones) This adds more power to the strikes part of the triangle system.

Back turned opponents get reset with jabs and stay backturned like they did in DOAD which also will limit slow escaping and holding.

Hold damage is fine in the demo since most of the holds barely even reach 45points of damage on HCB out of stun(unless its advance holds which IMO is fine since your chances of success are small).

Stun threshold should resemble DOAD's version rather than DOA4's which is disgusting! DOAD's was best since you got a mid height launch for counter blowing someone and launching immediately and also getting max height for HCB, (This also applied to parries and throw set ups)! This alone adds to the aggressor and the strike part of the triangle system since everything is much more in your favor when you have the momentum.

Having a few more stuns that are not slowescapable is nice since they prevent you from getting out of the stun that was hard to come across to begin with (Which is probably why ONLY PEOPLE HERE would like no holding out of stuns because its hard to extend them in DOA5demo). Having the ability to still hold out of these stuns is good IMO because its easier to read how they will react because of the long stun animation.

Also having stuns that prevent you from holding immediately is something I've always wanted since holding soon after a person stuns you should not reward you by going back to neutral for a chance to block/attack/or hold again for full hold damage. Anytime someone stuns you there should be a small wait time before they actually hold so that the aggressor can properly read the opponent if they are trying to always mash a hold and can be thrown accordingly. This has been kind of addressed because of the longer recovery in DOA5 which was welcomed however it seems there is still some moves that need tweaking so that the character can properly recover and react to the opponent. Hitomi's and Hayabusa's was a nice touch but needs tweaks. (Holds would still be 0 Frames but the ability to do them would only be granted after the first few frames of animation from the stun, not a lot though but more than what it currently is)

These last two mentioned above will help the agressor choose how they want their opponent to react. If they want to stop their slow escaping then they would do stuns that DO NOT allow you to SE but can still hold which sets up for throws. OR they can choose to use stuns that keep them from holding for a short period of time which forces them to SE instead. Either way the odds are in the attackers favor and it still feels like DOA.

Throws currently are fine and they do great damage for punishing when someone holds.

Adding a couple more hold resistant moves would be a good thing too but not too many.

Having frame advantage in the game currently is OK at best since it didnt grant anything and is something I have always said would end up happening since the hold is always the other option thats available to the defender.(I personally would prefer a few more normal hit stuns as my Frame Advantage rather than guard frame advantage because if my opponent does hold while in my quick stun, then the damage output of the hold would be scaled down where as people stuck in frame traps get FULL Hold damage)

Side step needs tweaking since its still inconsistent and is somewhat useless at times unless its hayate (except when you use it to cancel powerblows too ).

If they add the things i listed then the strike part of the triangle system will be more balanced (since it needed a little boost) and since the holds don't do as much damage(but still serve a purpose) and if they add the 4-Point hold it would make it feel a lot better but at the same time keeping the DOA feel. However i must say that adding too much of some of the things I listed would unbalance the triangle system and game mechanics (again) since it will make strikes overly powered -_-. Its mainly about fine tuning stuff instead of drastic changes like not being able to hold in stun EVER which is just plain stupid and would NEVER happen, i assure you ^_-.

MASTER

 

[x Sypher x]

MASTER, why wait to see how your opponent will react when you can just straight up launch them? If there was a small wait time until you could hold then that time should be used to further punish your opponent rather than sit back and see what happens. Stun the mofo and do it again, or launch. Why let the small advantage you have slip away? Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you're trying to say but that's how I see it right now.

Also, like everyone else suggested, I think there should be a few frames added to the initial, like maybe 2-5...5 at the most since the average neutral throw comes out in 5 frames as well.

 

[Rikuto]

Two walls of text from both Master and Emperor, and neither of them addressed accumulated probability with a viable solution. Pity since its the biggest problem.

@NinjaCW -- I do like the idea of some casual asshole having his damage scaling reset and doubled every time he throws out a counter though. I'd actually get behind that if it meant doubling or even tripling my juggle potential if he tried to counter multiple times in a stun, it literally would mean death combo. I wouldn't even be opposed to letting him continue countering, because that kind of punishment is just too hilarious, but the counter damage still needs to be toned down.

well ... heres a thought ...
I had a good chat with Master on xbl .. and he brought up the DOA system ...

how about implementing the DOA system of stuns ?

where if you get the firststun and launch you get the height you're getting now ...
if you extend it with as much as a jab .. you get it higher ...

if you catch someone with a counter HIT/strike .. etc .. and go for a launch you get mid height straight away ..
if you catch someone with a HI counter HIT/strike you get max lauch (same as stun threshold) meaning theres no need to incease stun ..

the other thing is that the stun threshold in DOA gives you a unique stun state ( like the sitdown ) where you pretty mugh get a garanteed setup after that ...

I think this balances out the triangle system very well and puts more emphasis on the stikes ...

i still believe removing holds from stuns is the worst idea ever and will pretty much destroy this game and everything it stands for ... you might disagree and not see it that way ... but its the way i do ...

I dont appreciate the mentality of ... if you dont like the changes then dont play it ... we arent dealing with a george W bush situation here where you're either with us or against us ...

guessing is a core part of this game ... like it or not its there ...

and this is what makes the game unique from every other fighter out there... where you cannot repeat the same gimmick or setup twice .. even as a high level player .. it keeps you constantly thinking of how to change it up .. how to confuse the opponent ... and how to put them in situations they are severely limited ... the fighting stays fresh ... and does NOT get repetitive as you may claim ...

you guys keep talking about holding out of stun is bad ... but you fail to realize that the TIMING by which you are allowed to hold is severely varried ... here are a few examples ...

you have a quick hold window from a regular stun ...
you have a longer one from a stun like hitomis (hence giving you the natural combo )
you have it even longer with a sitdown stun like hayate or on counter hit or after an initial stun ..

what many dont realize is that because these stuns have longer initial frames before allowing you to hold .. it is easier to read a hold done out of frustration and therefore it is alot easier to "high counter throw" them ...

then you have situations that you cannot hold at all !!
one being limbo stun .. (hayabusa has one and ayane has one )
the other being a turn around stun like hitomi's or the kick portion of

although you cannot hold in those states .. you can argue all the previous examples can be slow escaped ...

now heres something that alot of you might not even know ..
there are stuns that you CANNOT slow escape ...
hayates
or any of the following on counter hit or after an initial stun:
hayate's
hayabusa's
hitomi's

now even though you cannot slow escape these .. you can infact hold after ...
so again ... the complete opposite senario of the first list of stuns i mentioned ...

so again it is NOT that simple .. and you ARE at a disadvantage as a holder ...

the more note worthy things are that ..
holds have more recovery now .. meaning .. they are alot eaier to punish ..
but this also means that if you hold during stun you are significantly prolonging your stun window allowing for a worse stun follow up ...
the other thing is that stuns dont hurt as bad as they used to ... and thats a good step forward ...

another thing you may or may not have heard of (i personally found this out from master today) .. is that you CANNOT slow escape guard breaks ! .. that is a big deal .. because you're pretty much opened up for a followup .. again .. granted you can hold .. but again ... there are initial frames before you can .. making it easy to stuff that hold ...

holding mid stun can seem like its random .. or more of a gamble .. or even cheap for the person thats not used to the different types and doesnt apply these things to his game plan .. but that is NOT the case ..

and then theres the situations of more or less garanteed damage which I have covered before but I'll add a few things ...
- you have 2in1s (hitomi's or or )
- you have instant launchers not requiring stun ... many of which are high and others which are mid
(hayabusa's is high and hayates is mid .. just to name a few .. i listed alot more in a previous thread)
- you have the wall .. where now a wall slam garantees you free damage ...
- then you have damgerzones .. which can easily lead to garanteed 50% + life loss ... the reason for this is that unlike walls ... dangerzones get activated even after slamming the opponent into them from an air juggle ...
so picture this:
launcher (with or without primary stun) , air juggle, danger zone , garanteed followup after ... ALL UNHOLDABLE apart from the primary launch ... Im sorry but if a guy wants to hit me with an extended stun chain before launching me to that insane hell as well as well ...THEN I SURE AS HELL WANT TO BE ABLE TO HOLD HIM ! ..

theres alot more to holds during stun than what you guys say ... "if im attacking i should be rewarded ...etc" .. its just not that simple ...

you guys want a game that turns into nothing but muscle memory combos that get activated from a simple stupid stun ? you want to repeat your same max damage combo over and over and over and OVER again ? you want it repetitive and boring ? what you dont realize is that by doing that you automaticly raped the tier list as well .. because now .. the characters wouldnt be looked at in an all round sense but in .. who has the fastest good stun ? and who has the more stun options (high mid or low) .. automaticly you would butcher the game ...
looking at the 4 characters now .. with your logic .. ayane is automaticly shit tier .. because she has least stuns .. and her good ones are all mid... but the hold mid stun keeps everything at a balance which you are all overlooking....

what you guys want is not DOA ...

and i DO NOT UNDERSTAND .. how the hell having holds in stuns will automaticly dictate the tournament scene of this game ... and will dictate weather a 100 or 12 people show up .. who the hell knows the future here ? no1!!

look at kof13 .. arguably one of the best and deepest fighters currently out there ... does it have a tournament scene ? yes.. how good is it .. its a pitifully low turn up ... and soul calibur 5 which you guys seem to speak highly of is getting less and less people showing up every damn week!

what if you remove holds from stun and you still get your 10-12 player turn up ... then what ? whos fault is it ? did team ninja fuck up again? they did exactly what you wanted ? what then ?!

honestly id much rather have the game stay the way it is in the alpha demo with a few tweaks here and there .. like implementing the DOA stun/counter launch reward system. or for example removing "counter hold" and "high counter hold" during stun .... but removing holds from stun COMPLETELY? no thank you ... I want to play DEAD OR ALIVE .. not DEAD OR DEAD .. because thats what would happen if you get stunned pretty much with your logic...

Do you understand what accumulated probability is? If you do, then you have to understand how entirely bad DOA 4 is as a competitive fighter and why people would NEVER want a true sequel to that game. If you don't know what accumulated probability is, please look it up and don't make another wall of text until you properly understand the flaws of the game. You're pretty much wasting your own time drawing out a large argument that doesn't even address the real problem, and I kind of feel bad for you if you end up doing that.

As for the little rant at the end, how about you have a little faith in the guys who have actually been playing this game for the last decade? Chances are we know what drives people away from it.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Do you understand what accumulated probability is? If you do, then you have to understand how entirely bad DOA 4 is as a competitive fighter and why people would NEVER want a true sequel to that game. If you don't know what accumulated probability is, please look it up and don't make another wall of text until you properly understand the flaws of the game. You're pretty much wasting your own time drawing out a large argument that doesn't even address the real problem, and I kind of feel bad for you if you end up doing that.

lets put it this way...
right now the biggest worry I have is removing holds from stun..
and just like you're stiving hard to sound your opinion ... i want to do the same because i do not agree with your opinion .. (with no disrespect intended)

you can explain your probablities with charts and numbers all you like .. bottom line is .. you dont cover all options ... you're so fixated on a 50/50 that is NOT a 50/50 ... you talk about rolling a 3 sided dice twice to get you a chance once leads to 50/50 .. well heres the thing ... ITS NOT 3 SIDED ! as an attacker high/mid/low strikes .. you have high throws and low throws ... and you have the option to do absolutely nothing! as a defender you still have high/mid/low holds but you also have the nothing option and sometimes you get the chance of slow escaping depending on the stun and the recovery the attacker is in ... granted its not there always and these usually end up being high risk situations that are rare .. but you cant dismiss them ... not to mention that there are stuns that force late holds ... that factor alone messes up the constant rule of the probability ..

factor in a whiff punish ... that automaticly makes the defender lose the first dice roll .. make it an instant launcher and the second dice isnt even there ... there goes your dice theory ...

I did not say in a single post that I wanted another DOA4 ... and the game in its current state has changed quite drasticly from 4 ...
two main factors being reduced damage to holds and increased recovery ... those two are a huge deal ...
not to mention the increased possibilities of garanteed damage that I keep stressing on ..

the triangle system always had the longer arm towards holds .. its sad but true ... and I do agree this needs to be fixed .. but eliminating them from stun is not the answer .. if you do that you're just giving the bigger arm to strikes .. and that isnt good either ..

the DOA system for stuns/counters that dictate launch heights made it more possible to massively punish someone who makes a wrong guess ... and I think that system was pretty damn smart ... its surprizing why it wasnt implemented in doa5 (yet ! ) ..

the other fix that I suggested was that during stun .. since you are at a disadvantage .. removing "counter hold" and "high counter hold" would make the holds less of a threat to the attacker ... but that in turn might make some attacks too good. ... but I think its only fair since they are on the offensive ... and it could work if they manage to balance it out right.

you also dont factor in that the active frames of a low hold are less in stun .. and you can still be hit with a slower low attack in your longer recovery frames if baited out correctly ... that screws over the 3 way dice even further ..

and i believe berzerk! touched on this before ... the HUMAN ERROR factor will always be there .. we arent computers ... conditioning the opponent is part of every fighting game .. and that plays a huge role as well .. that also include varied reaction times from player to player ...

As for the little rant at the end, how about you have a little faith in the guys who have actually been playing this game for the last decade? Chances are we know what drives people away from it.

for the record, I happen to be one of these people that " have acctually been playing this game for the last decade"..
just because my point of view differs from yours and just because I didnt post in DOA forums before this alpha demo does not mean I dont know what Im talking about ..

at least I knew enough to tell everyone that you are not infact out of stun when you attempt a hold but are infact prolonging the stun time ... which I have to say most of you (including yourself) thought was not the case even though this was carried on from the DOA2 days ... the only reason it is more appearant now is that in doa5 the recovery is longer ... and YES that is a big deal and YES it does make a world of a difference .. in the right direction might I add ...

 

[CyberEvil]

You would think you would at least Google what he was talking about.

Well, Rikuto, you have your answer.

 

[Rikuto]

lets put it this way...
right now the biggest worry I have is removing holds from stun..
and just like you're stiving hard to sound your opinion ... i want to do the same because i do not agree with your opinion .. (with no disrespect intended)

you can explain your probablities with charts and numbers all you like .. bottom line is .. you dont cover all options ... you're so fixated on a 50/50 that is NOT a 50/50 ... you talk about rolling a 3 sided dice twice to get you a chance once leads to 50/50 .. well heres the thing ... ITS NOT 3 SIDED ! as an attacker high/mid/low strikes .. you have high throws and low throws ... and you have the option to do absolutely nothing! as a defender you still have high/mid/low holds but you also have the nothing option and sometimes you get the chance of slow escaping depending on the stun and the recovery the attacker is in ... granted its not there always and these usually end up being high risk situations that are rare .. but you cant dismiss them ... not to mention that there are stuns that force late holds ... that factor alone messes up the constant rule of the probability ..

factor in a whiff punish ... that automaticly makes the defender lose the first dice roll .. make it an instant launcher and the second dice isnt even there ... there goes your dice theory ...

I did not say in a single post that I wanted another DOA4 ... and the game in its current state has changed quite drasticly from 4 ...
two main factors being reduced damage to holds and increased recovery ... those two are a huge deal ...
not to mention the increased possibilities of garanteed damage that I keep stressing on ..

the triangle system always had the longer arm towards holds .. its sad but true ... and I do agree this needs to be fixed .. but eliminating them from stun is not the answer .. if you do that you're just giving the bigger arm to strikes .. and that isnt good either ..

the DOA system for stuns/counters that dictate launch heights made it more possible to massively punish someone who makes a wrong guess ... and I think that system was pretty damn smart ... its surprizing why it wasnt implemented in doa5 (yet ! ) ..

the other fix that I suggested was that during stun .. since you are at a disadvantage .. removing "counter hold" and "high counter hold" would make the holds less of a threat to the attacker ... but that in turn might make some attacks too good. ... but I think its only fair since they are on the offensive ... and it could work if they manage to balance it out right.

you also dont factor in that the active frames of a low hold are less in stun .. and you can still be hit with a slower low attack in your longer recovery frames if baited out correctly ... that screws over the 3 way dice even further ..

and i believe berzerk! touched on this before ... the HUMAN ERROR factor will always be there .. we arent computers ... conditioning the opponent is part of every fighting game .. and that plays a huge role as well .. that also include varied reaction times from player to player ...




for the record, I happen to be one of these people that " have acctually been playing this game for the last decade"..
just because my point of view differs from yours and just because I didnt post in DOA forums before this alpha demo does not mean I dont know what Im talking about ..

at least I knew enough to tell everyone that you are not infact out of stun when you attempt a hold but are infact prolonging the stun time ... which I have to say most of you (including yourself) thought was not the case even though this was carried on from the DOA2 days ... the only reason it is more appearant now is that in doa5 the recovery is longer ... and YES that is a big deal and YES it does make a world of a difference .. in the right direction might I add ...

Doing nothing means I escaped the situation, so that doesn't help your case. Slow escaping doesn't either, as you are not going to slow escape a situation where the attacker is not attempting to delay his attacks unless he is relying 100% on light stuns and delays, which he wont be when he's relying 100% on odds. Human error is also irrelevant at high level as we forcibly dumb our options down to the point that we force your hand as much as our own.

This is not theory fighting, its what has been proven to work at the highest levels of this game. You are at a significantly lower level and are pretending it does not exist. It does, it just isn't apparent to you yet.

factor in a whiff punish ... that automaticly makes the defender lose the first dice roll .. make it an instant launcher and the second dice isnt even there ... there goes your dice theory ...

I gave an example where whiffing is impossible, and all a person has to do to make it happen is run up and get blocked.

I've already explained how it's a 3 sided dice as well, because low/mid punch/mid kick holds stop every option. Low holds go under highs, remember? In fact, every objection you've had here I actually addressed in my original post where I put up this information. You're choosing to ignore the information presented because it presents a threat to your argument. There is nothing I can do for you as long as you maintain that attitude.

I said it to Julius, and I'll say to you as well.

Jokes aside, it's also its nice to see Master arbitrarily liking posts which disagree with my own, even when they are founded by complete nonsense. Emotional priorities and all that.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Doing nothing means I escaped the situation, so that doesn't help your case. Slow escaping doesn't either, as you are not going to slow escape a situation where the attacker is not attempting to delay his attacks unless he is relying 100% on light stuns, which he wont be when he's relying 100% on odds.

I've already explained how it's a 3 sided dice, because low/mid punch/mid kick holds stop every option. Low holds go under highs, remember? You're choosing to ignore the information presented because it presents a threat to your argument. There is nothing I can do for you as long as you maintain that attitude.

i did not ignore it but ive answered you before in another thread ..
you must have forgotten ... or maybe it wasnt you .. not sure anymore ..
sorry but ive been having the same argument on almost every damn thread in this forum so it gets kind of tedious following who said what sometimes ...

but here was my answer ..

theres high attacks that go into mid ...
hayabusas
by following your pattern .. you get stuffed both times if you attempt a mid or a low hold ...
if you go mid you get hit and smacked into the ground ..
if you go low you will get smacked again with the kick going down ...
therefore you have to hold the first kick standing

another example would be hayabusa's .. stuffing the low and stuffing the mid .. (although you are still able to go mid hold after getting hit with the high kick) but thats where the mixing up plays a role and thats where you can go ... infact punch portion can be slightly delayed to see your reaction to the stand kick and still be able to punish your mid hold attempt or your low hold on reaction if the 1st kick hit you ...

theres 2 examples for you where your dice either doesnt work at all or doesnt work as efficiently...


the 2nd time I answered you is when i mentioned slow low attacks hitting after your active frames of your hold during stun ... those too will beat all your dice options ...

by the way ..
the vid made me laugh .. LOL ... (im gonna use it for something else .. lol)

 

[Rikuto]

Holds come out in 0 frames and can start before the high move ever animates since the attacker is still recovering from his own successful attack (which has recovery frames whether it landed or not), and recover before the followup mid comes out. So your example doesn't work here.


You're playing theory fighter again....

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Holds come out in 0 frames and can start before the high move ever animates since the attacker is still recovering from his own successful attack (which has recovery frames whether it landed or not), and recover before the followup mid comes out. So your example doesn't work here.

acctually it does .. please test it out .. especially the first example ..

 

[Rikuto]

acctually it does .. please test it out .. especially the first example ..

I've spent seven years testing it out. You are not accounting for the effective disadvantage hayabusa himself will be in after he puts a person in stun due to the recovery of whatever attack he just used. You're wrong.

And even if you were right, going under the first hit of 8KK means I avoided your launch and therefore the entirety of your damage potential, so who cares? You're going to have to keep rolling the dice if you want to beat your enemy.

 

[Chris Harris]

Your examples assume the person don't know the strings or they have variations.

Dude it's probably best no one argues with you further.

While I do agree that they nerfed hold damage pretty hard the point is it is an abusable move with small backlash. Obviously some scrub mashing holds will lose to you but someone who is good and knows options it becomes random and annoying to fight against.

Either way I doubt they change holds drastically anyway so we'll have to see what happens.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I've spent seven years testing it out. You're wrong.

And even if you were right, going under the first hit of 8KK means I avoided your launch and therefore the entirety of your damage potential, so who cares?

I care .. because it does acctually work and it stuffed all your options ..

and you need to consider the type of initial stun .. weather your hold can be done on the 2nd frame, the 5th, the 7th .. etc ..

the game is not just about launches ...

if i did this and your back is near a wall and you go for a mid hold theres more damage for me.. from the wall slam ..
if you did a low hold I also get the wall bounce for a free follow up ...
if you were in the trashcan dangerzone that means i can stuff in an unholdable/unblockable launch after and stuff an air juggle back into the wall as well
if i did this and your back is behind a danger zone it doesnt matter if your hold was high or mid ... thats not just more free damage .. thats more garanteed damage and a garanteed combo extend ..

i keep stressing that the stages are narrower and the likelyhood of garanteed damage is alot higher than any DOA before this ...

so yes i care if i can do that .. infact i care ALOT! ..

 

[Rikuto]

130 points of damage on an izuna counter is a boost, not a nerf :/

Now ayane's counters? Thats a nerf.

I care .. because it does acctually work and it stuffed all your options ..

and you need to consider the type of initial stun .. weather your hold can be done on the 2nd frame, the 5th, the 7th .. etc

You really believe it works, don't you? It doesn't. I'm telling you, you are not testing under proper conditions and in fact there is no way to make the CPU do it for you, you need a human.

And you're not going to beat anyone by just using the second portion of 8kk over and over again. Wall hits are another matter and currently are the most solid thing in DOA 5 for strikes, I won't debate their usefulness, but open space combos still need relevance. It's where the majority of the fight takes place.


Let me ask you though, if you took increased damage scaling instead of decreased after every blundered counter attempt, would that be a reasonable compromise?

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

130 points of damage on an izuna counter is a boost, not a nerf :/

Now ayane's counters? Thats a nerf.

thank you for changing the subject and admitting you were not 100 % right ..

as for the izuna damage .. yes i agree 100% its too much...
which is why i suggested the removal of "counters" from holds during stun...

as for ayane .. well .. you can argue that her advanced holds give her garanteed combos ... and if you factor in the stage effect .. they arent too bad acctually ...

but i think the direction they're taking with this whole individuality thing is that maybe ayane would be stronger in other aspects .. but we need to see the final build and we need to compare her to the rest of the cast ...
but currently she seems decent .. not hitomi/hayabusa level .. but still decent enough to put on a fight ..

as for hayate .. he needs half the moveset that they've taken away to be brought back ...
although his sidestep is pretty awesome and his current stun and launch options are nice .. it seems hes lacking .. especially with his old lows ... (his old and his ) which kinda sucks ...
although his and do nice sit down stun on counter hit or after an initial stun which makes the hold time quite noticably delayed ..

 

[MASTER]

MASTER, why wait to see how your opponent will react when you can just straight up launch them? If there was a small wait time until you could hold then that time should be used to further punish your opponent rather than sit back and see what happens. Stun the mofo and do it again, or launch. Why let the small advantage you have slip away? Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you're trying to say but that's how I see it right now.

Also, like everyone else suggested, I think there should be a few frames added to the initial, like maybe 2-5...5 at the most since the average neutral throw comes out in 5 frames as well.

The reason you would have to wait for their reaction instead of taking the option completely out sypher is because once you are stunned in DOA you are like +100, All other fighters dont give you this much advantage on the majority of the stuns you get (or any situation for that matter). Do Hayate's and check the frame data. Its a ridiculous amount of time that you have to add another attack and being able to reset that situation again within the same stun is stupid which is why you need to be able to hold in stun.

Izuna Drop is 130Pts?? why do people still get this wrong? It tells you in the game("READ"). its 112Pts on high counter throw only and rightfully so like Shimbori said since his strikes have been toned down a considerable amount. Only other time is if he gets an advance hold OUT of stun and also has to be high counter which means there is only 2 frames withing the first initial start up frames of the hold for that to actually happen. (The izuna Didn't change in damage so i dont know why you would say invalid INFORMATION to folks that it got a boost when in reality it became harder to actually make the counter happen to achieve that damage)

BTW I've been playing DOA for about 15 years now so don't come in with that crap either.

FYI @Emperor, Ayane's individuality in the game that i see so far is her Powerblow(PB) Since its the only one in the game that takes over a third of your life bar, not counting dangerzones. That PB is Super strong! But again we would have to see what else they may add to her.

MASTER

 

[DrDogg]

BTW I've been playing DOA for about 15 years now so don't come in with that crap either.

You've been playing DOA for 15 years, but you're not competitive in ANY other fighting game that has a scene. Because of this, you have an EXTREMELY narrow-minded point of view. Maybe you should try getting good at another competitive fighting game so you understand what we're talking about?

 

[MASTER]

You've been playing DOA for 15 years, but you're not competitive in ANY other fighting game that has a scene. Because of this, you have an EXTREMELY narrow-minded point of view. Maybe you should try getting good at another competitive fighting game so you understand what we're talking about?

I do play other fighting games and have competed in some in the past which makes me understand DOA's system even more and why it plays the way it does. You don't know what i play so don't talk like you do. Also just because YOU compete and get trashed on in other fighting games by good players, like you do in DOA, automatically means you know what you are talking about?

MASTER

 

[Rikuto]

i'm ball parking the damage based on the fact it was higher than Naraku with wall and less than 50% the last time I played against Cyber.

If you say its 112, its 112. But it's still laughing at my best high-counter throw output.