Do you want a tournament scene?

[Raansu]

Emperor_cow makes me do this


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on a daily basis.

 

[DrDogg]

I do play other fighting games and have competed in some in the past which makes me understand DOA's system even more and why it plays the way it does. You don't know what i play so don't talk like you do. Also just because YOU compete and get trashed on in other fighting games by good players, like you do in DOA, automatically means you know what you are talking about?

Petty insults are petty... and expected from you. I was simply stating the truth. I guess that hurts. I never said you don't play other fighters. I said you're not good at them. And it's funny you say I get trashed on. I placed 17th out of 255 at Final Round, losing to the person who took 2nd. What did you get? Oh right... you weren't there.

How about this...
Name just one major where you've placed top 32 in a competitive fighting game that isn't DOA.

You are right about one thing, the top DOA players beat me at DOA. Why? Because I don't guess very well. Never have... never will.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

im sorry but since when was pointing out someones background a valid part of this argument ... ?

whats next ? ethnicity ?

if thats your argument ... then i play games and on several occasions reached top 32 .. top 16 .. top 8 .. top 4 and even won.. and it wasnt DOA ..

im talking about sf4 ..

ive placed really far in multiple soul calibur 4 tournaments and with a character that people consider to be shit tier "rock" ...
and i still compete in the soul calibur 5 tournaments
and ive been competitive in kof since kof97.. (unfortunately didnt have the time to play 13 ... due to its shit online )
I may not have entered any DOA tournaments before but this does not mean I dont know what I'm talking about .. and it certainly does not mean that i havent been playing it at high level ...

you dont base an argument on someones background ...

if someone is making a valid argument ... and backing it up with evidence then thats what you base it on ...

but saying oh you dont know because you havent played this at a high level .. or no because you only play this one game ... is not an answer

and theres a huge difference between guessing and "reading" ... guessing is a factor ... but "reading" someone is a totally different thing ...

if you lose because you cant "guess" then you're missing the point ... dont guess then .. try to "read" the opponent .. everyone has habits, patterns and flaws .. no1 is perfect .. not in DOA and certainly not in any other game ..

skatanmilla is pretty much holding the same argument in the frame data thread and raising some pretty valid points ... you may not know skatan but he is one of the top players in sweeden and europe in sf4 and certainly very knowlegable in many other fighting games and plays them at high level including DOA ... and a multi tournament winner as well...

so can we please cut the labeling crap and just focus on what acctually counts ? which is a healthy argument ?

no need to label anyone or belittle anyones opinion ...

 

[Chris Harris]

Lol it's like talking to walls.

I mean DoA is fun and we all love it or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Fact is holds do too much and are available at ALL times. Yes they have added a "few" other things for more damage (which I like) but at the same time holds still are available too much.

In the end DoA had no basis for safe offense because the defender had so much power.

There need to be more solid opportunities for the attacker since the defender gets 2-4 chances to get out of a situation for free.

It's like having a burst at all times in GG. . .you would spend most of the time baiting them or going for gold bursts.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Here's what I've gathered so far; Manny is an attention whore and a troll. If you argue with these kind of people, you're wasting your time.


Also, I think this game would have a longer life span as a side tournament or something minor for people to participate on regular occasions while waiting for main events.

I mean DoA is fun and we all love it...

Yeah, I wouldn't go that far, buddy.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Lets change the point of view here so that we can get a better grasp at the situation. Lets say every time my opponent blocks my unsafe attack, I can cancel out of disadvantage and attack right out of it. How exactly is my opponent going to be rewarded for having a good defense if I am able to escape punishment? He wont be able to. His defense would be practically useless because I can continue attacking no matter when he blocked. This will make the use of Blocking inefficient. This is exactly what is happening on the offensive stand point.

 

[MASTER]

Here's what I've gathered so far; Manny is an attention whore and a troll. If you argue with these kind of people, you're wasting your time.


Also, I think this game would have a longer life span as a side tournament or something minor for people to participate on regular occasions while waiting for main events.



Yeah, I wouldn't go that far, buddy.

I hardly post here, I don't even have 'active member' on my profile yet. That doesn't really defend your attention whore accusation.

Wait, I'm Trolling? I didn't post the walled texts that look like face palms and the boondocks references with the 'N-word' in it. That was someone else.

MASTER

 

[Awesmic]

I hardly post here, I don't even have 'active member' on my profile yet. That doesn't really defend your attention whore accusation.

Wait, I'm Trolling? I didn't post the walled texts that look like face palms and the boondocks references with the 'N-word' in it. That was someone else.

MASTER

Seeing as I've been labeled that as of late, it's safe to say he either got the both of us mixed up, or he thinks we're one and the same.

Either way, you shouldn't care what he thinks. I'm the one who has to worry.

 

[DrDogg]

im sorry but since when was pointing out someones background a valid part of this argument ... ?

1. I was not talking to you. I no longer respond to your comments because I already know what you're going to say, and I 100% disagree with it. Therefore there's no need for me to converse with you about it.

2. Manny is notoriously known for being "less than competitive" at any fighting game that isn't DOA. It's even been brought up that if DOA5 were to take the proper steps forward, he would cease to be a top player. If he wants to deny this fact, then he needs to step up and offer up some evidence. Instead, he resorts to insults that are as inaccurate as they are petty. This is par for the course with him as just about anyone knowledgeable within the DOA community will tell you.

3. Notice how Manny ignored my very direct question? It's because I was correct and he's not good at any other competitive fighting games. Therefore his opinion is extremely skewed, as I was pointing out. It's a VERY valid concern because he simply doesn't know what high level play is like in any competitive fighting game outside of DOA. How is he supposed to know what needs to be changed when he's never been good at any other competitive fighting game?

4. It's clear you share Manny's opinion, and I'm happy for you. Enjoy your 15-man tournament scene.

 

[MASTER]

1. I was not talking to you. I no longer respond to your comments because I already know what you're going to say, and I 100% disagree with it. Therefore there's no need for me to converse with you about it.



4. It's clear you share Manny's opinion, and I'm happy for you. Enjoy your 15-man tournament scene.

2. Manny is notoriously known for being "less than competitive" at any fighting game that isn't DOA. It's even been brought up that if DOA5 were to take the proper steps forward, he would cease to be a top player. If he wants to deny this fact, then he needs to step up and offer up some evidence. Instead, he resorts to insults that are as inaccurate as they are petty. This is par for the course with him as just about anyone knowledgeable within the DOA community will tell you.

YOU and a few other players said this exact same thing when DOA4 came out and kept bragging about how Hayabusa didn't have , anymore and that i would lose and now you're saying the same thing again in hopes it comes true (forgive me if im not surprised). You also are the person that said i would easily get last place in the CGS if Dave Chappelle wasnt in the league and that clearly didnt happen either. Not sure if you remember but I also won in DOA3.1 tournaments, a game people said to take skill to win in this very same site. I even challenged the winner of the SF4 tournament in Supercon nationals in Denver and beat him repeatedly and ran my mouth on the stream saying everyone was trash and made someone actually drive to the venue and beat the crap out of them and thats when i didnt even play the game.

3. Notice how Manny ignored my very direct question? It's because I was correct and he's not good at any other competitive fighting games. Therefore his opinion is extremely skewed, as I was pointing out. It's a VERY valid concern because he simply doesn't know what high level play is like in any competitive fighting game outside of DOA. How is he supposed to know what needs to be changed when he's never been good at any other competitive fighting game?

I'm ignoring you but yet Isn't that what you are doing to Emperor cow? BTW You don't know what high level play is any fighting game. Not once have you came up in any conversation/post of any kind saying that "DRDOGG is so good at 'X' game, you should listen to him". Also you said you lost to the guy that took second in a tournament you lost in and didnt even place top 10 in. So you are saying you pretty much got lucky in your placing (17th btw =/) because if you would have ran into a player that was actually good sooner you could have gotten a much worse placing, I see. You're worse than i thought.

If people haven't gotten the hint yet, Bryan "Dr.Dogg" Dawson is notorious for saying that people are bad at ANY game or setting up situations for a player where he has nothing to lose. He isnt anyone that has a say in ANY Fighting game community including THIS ONE. If someone proves him wrong he doesnt lose anything, and if he is actually right he can only gain what little there is to gain from the argument/discussion. Same thing applies if i were to play him in any game that isnt DOA. If i win i gain nothing because, its Dr.Dogg who cares. It's not hard to see what you're doing.

EDIT: @Awesmic, aww, I understand now.

MASTER

 

[x Sypher x]

MASTER

Daaaaaam that Super at the end was sick! I bet that took some fucking super quick reflexes to pull that shit off lol. Good shit.

 

[RoboJoe]

snip

Thanks, it's clear now.

i still believe removing holds from stuns is the worst idea ever and will pretty much destroy this game and everything it stands for ... you might disagree and not see it that way ... but its the way i do ..

guessing is a core part of this game ... like it or not its there ...

Guessing will always be a core part of DOA simply from the 50/50 on the first hit, removing holds from stun only makes it so that the attacker is actually rewarded after getting past that first guess. Right now, the attacker gets past that first hit, then has to guess several more times to get a launch decent enough to be able to deal enough damage to match the hi-counter hold damage the defender gets from the first 50/50 if they guess right. The attacker is supposed to control the tempo of the match, not the defender. Universal holds already give the defender a constant high damage threat even against something as basic as a standing p. Risk vs reward for the attacker is skewed heavily towards risk and without giving the attacker a chance at reasonable damage that can be done from anywhere and not just walls/danger zones, the game is just frustrating to play competitively because after all, the fun of competitive play is to see if your knowledge of the game is better than the others who are trying to do the same. If all your practice and studying is thrown out by a flip of a coin, why waste your time even trying? While I can't say for sure why no one plays DOA, I can tell you that it's not because of some stigma of "titty fighter", both Soul Calibur and Skullgirls play that card more strongly than DOA ever did and they both are played and won't stop being played anytime soon. DOA isn't that different from other fighting games (like smash is) that it would turn off people from playing it, except for one thing: cockblocking an attacker who actually hits his opponent, which should be the most natural thing to do in a fighting game, but not DOA. That's why no one playsit and never will past the "ohh! new game!" first few months and the players who have played it half their life and would continue playing it even if Itagaki himself came and kicked them in the balls every time they got countered and whispered "you rike that?".

Dr.Dogg: I think you're being unfair to master, you were attacking him personally, not his argument and that's why he lashed out. You should have said "you don't know shit about what it takes to bring players from other games to DOA!", instead you said "you don't know shit about other games!"

 

[DrDogg]

YOU and a few other players said this exact same thing when DOA4 came out and kept bragging about how Hayabusa didn't have , anymore and that i would lose and now you're saying the same thing again in hopes it comes true (forgive me if im not surprised). You also are the person that said i would easily get last place in the CGS if Dave Chappelle wasnt in the league and that clearly didnt happen either. Not sure if you remember but I also won in DOA3.1 tournaments, a game people said to take skill to win in this very same site. I even challenged the winner of the SF4 tournament in Supercon nationals in Denver and beat him repeatedly and ran my mouth on the stream saying everyone was trash and made someone actually drive to the venue and beat the crap out of them and thats when i didnt even play the game.

That's all DOA... and Supercon is not a major. Even when the SC4 "Nationals" were held there, it wasn't a major.

I'm ignoring you but yet Isn't that what you are doing to Emperor cow?

I respect Emperor's opinion. I know he has high level experience in fighting games outside of DOA. I am fully aware of the fact that he favors the "guessing" aspect of fighting games, and that's an opinion we disagree on. That's why I choose not to converse with him on the subject. There's simply no reason to because we both know where the other stands.

BTW You don't know what high level play is any fighting game. Not once have you came up in any conversation/post of any kind saying that "DRDOGG is so good at 'X' game, you should listen to him". Also you said you lost to the guy that took second in a tournament you lost in and didnt even place top 10 in. So you are saying you pretty much got lucky in your placing (17th btw =/) because if you would have ran into a player that was actually good sooner you could have gotten a much worse placing, I see. You're worse than i thought.

I don't really know what to say about this. I would have liked to have done better, but I think 17 out of 255 is very good. I also believe it's better than you've placed in any non-DOA major. I don't think people would say "DrDogg is so good at 'x" game" because why would they? I admit that I'm not a "top" player. That was never in question. However, I'm a very solid player, and I don't know of many "very solid players" who are mentioned in conversation like that outside of their local communities. I'm really not sure what you're getting at with the above quoted text...

If people haven't gotten the hint yet, Bryan "Dr.Dogg" Dawson is notorious for saying that people are bad at ANY game or setting up situations for a player where he has nothing to lose. He isnt anyone that has a say in ANY Fighting game community including THIS ONE. If someone proves him wrong he doesnt lose anything, and if he is actually right he can only gain what little there is to gain from the argument/discussion. Same thing applies if i were to play him in any game that isnt DOA. If i win i gain nothing because, its Dr.Dogg who cares. It's not hard to see what you're doing.

Um... who else have I mentioned being bad at other fighting games who claims otherwise? I can only recall saying it to DOA and MK players, because it was the truth on all accounts. My apologies if you think that's what I do on a regular basis, because it's certainly not my intention. If you'd point me toward a recent example (other than you) I would love to see it and address the issue.

It's no secret that I do not like you. I haven't liked you since the moment I met you (online in DOA2U). You are, by far, the cockiest, most egotistical player I have ever come across. And that's saying a lot considering some of the egos that run rampant in the FGC. I also have a big ego and I'm not afraid to admit that. I'm also not afraid to admit when I'm wrong, something I have never seen you do. I can count the number of times I've heard you apologize on one hand.

The backlash I hear from people behind the scenes about you is ridiculous. There's a reason why people who know you don't want anything to do with you (including your TKP site). If you're okay with people thinking of you in this light, then we have nothing more to say here. I'll place you on ignore and we'll be done. However, if you don't like that people think of you that way, you might want to examine why people think the way they do. I really don't know how you feel about it, and I'm not trying to be mean or petty. This is the simple truth.

My apologies because this conversation did get out of hand, and it's because our two egos clashed... as they often do. I don't believe I've said anything about you that's false, and I'm sure you think the same way about your statements toward me.

Dr.Dogg: I think you're being unfair to master, you were attacking him personally, not his argument and that's why he lashed out. You should have said "you don't know shit about what it takes to bring players from other games to DOA!", instead you said "you don't know shit about other games!"

I was harsh, I agree with that. See my above text for a brief explanation as to why. However, I do believe what I said, that he knows very little about high level play in other competitive fighting games.

 

[MrMoon360]

Also, I think this game would have a longer life span as a side tournament or something minor for people to participate on regular occasions while waiting for main events.
.

That's kinda troll-ish.
lol

 

[MASTER]

SNIP

Don't confuse cockiness with confidence. I am confident in what i say especially when i know the situation, which is why I say it that way. I agree with you that OUR 'egos' have 'clashed' in the past but i don't have an ego anymore and it was mainly for entertainment value (like some former players did in the past as I'm sure you know). This maybe hard to believe for you but this kinda goes back to what 'people' are supposedly 'saying' like you mentioned. Even if I was deemed an angel tomorrow people would still have these supposed thoughts about me anyway because its all being done behind closed doors.

If that's the case I probably shouldn't care since it wouldn't change anything and it doest stop me from moving forward anyway, it never did. And I will still keep helping the community with videos/posts/breakdowns no matter what people think. Now Another thing about that is how do I know its even true or if THEY even know its true? It just sounds like a bunch of he said she said junk. However if it is true then prove it. Its always behind closed doors apparently because i never hear about it except from the same handful of people. You have my number, lets actually talk. You dont have to respond to this post either and i wont take it as you ignoring me. Lets let it get back on topic. If you don't call, that will be more than enough response for me to understand where you are at.

I want to apologize as well for steering the thread off topic. You see Doc, (some) people can still change........

MASTER

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

Actually, I just found this out the other day...It's either Lisa or Tina or both in DoA4 that have a grab that pushes towards the wall(depending on the wall you will bounce back) and I've actually COUNTERED out of the grab before I hit the wall several times. My character literally stopped his/her self from hitting the wall by countering out of the animation.... So you CAN counter out of at least 1 or 2 grabs that I know now.

But, but, but....I countered out of a grab animation, that's gotta mean something right?

I'm gonna feel like such an idiot if like everyone but me knew this..............meh /puts*glasses*on\

 

[Rikuto]

I hardly post here, I don't even have 'active member' on my profile yet. That doesn't really defend your attention whore accusation.

Wait, I'm Trolling? I didn't post the walled texts that look like face palms and the boondocks references with the 'N-word' in it. That was someone else.

MASTER

First, technically I'm the most "liked" person on the forum, but I think if you asked anybody I would also come across as the most abrasive to an outsider, so looks can be deceiving on forum titles.

Second, DON'T TALK SHIT ABOUT BOONDOCKS.

Unless, of course, you are prepared to offer me cheese.

 

[Allan Paris]

Lets change the point of view here so that we can get a better grasp at the situation. Lets say every time my opponent blocks my unsafe attack, I can cancel out of disadvantage and attack right out of it. How exactly is my opponent going to be rewarded for having a good defense if I am able to escape punishment? He wont be able to. His defense would be practically useless because I can continue attacking no matter when he blocked. This will make the use of Blocking inefficient. This is exactly what is happening on the offensive stand point.

This shit here, is fucking gold and, I am quoting it; SO THAT THIS SHIT CAN BE SEEN, ONCE AGAIN!

Holds don't have to go but, they gotta get the fuck outta stuns.

Oh yeah, yes, I do want an OFFLINE tournament scene for this game (DOA5).

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

1. I was not talking to you. I no longer respond to your comments because I already know what you're going to say, and I 100% disagree with it. Therefore there's no need for me to converse with you about it.

4. It's clear you share Manny's opinion, and I'm happy for you. Enjoy your 15-man tournament scene.

hi again,
you know I have no disrespect for you.. and we've chatted a few times on pm and even on this forum before.. and we disagreed almost 99% of the time .. yes ... but still held healthy conversations ...
its not about who wins the conversation in the end .. its about how can you clearly send your point accross to the opposing party so that in the end you can reach a middle ground ..

when I first entered this forum, I was attacked by "you dont know this game at high level" .. and "I dont know about you in other games but in high level DOA this is wrong" ... now although I dont expect you or anyone to know who the hell I am, mainly because most of you are USA based and secondly because my core background is infact street fighter... I didnt have to boast about it. But, seeing how someone else was being accused by a statement similar to mine made me annoyed a little. because comments like that sway the conversation and just miss the point...

you said yourself. "You are right about one thing, the top DOA players beat me at DOA. Why? Because I don't guess very well. Never have... never will."
... now what makes you think that when holds mid stun are gone you are going to guess less ?
the guessing in terms of the footsie game and the initial attack are just as deadly. and DOA shares the non-stun game with most other fighters out there .. particularly calibur.. and If you can't guess mid stun then you can't guess out of stun either. again I'm not accusing you of being good or bad. but thats my answer to the argument.

Infact .. if you can't guess that well in general then holding mid stun comes as a savior mechanic to players like that specificly! because then when you mess up, if the opponent starts to style on you with stun after stun. you can stuff all that back into his face with a hold and tone him down..
think about it .. if you hold and he continues striking .. then you dont get more damage ...
but obviously theres a risk ... and that is the throw ... so in the end there is a risk to it. despite me arguing with rikuto about restricting your play to mid/low holds and completely ignoring the high hold. It DOES infact cover many options but I just wanted to point out to him that its NOT every option.. and high holds do have a great value if a defender knows whats coming, or if the attacker knows the gimmick and goes for setups like the ones I mentioned.. I can elaborate on this further by giving more acctual examples if anyone wishes..

a simple example apart from the ones Ive already mentioned would be ...
HITOMI's .. that move has a high mid and low variety ..
if you weigh it out ...
- the low followup would do nothing but knock me down .. so Im not too worried about that..
- the high follow up would'nt be too bad if I was mid screen .. BUT, if I was behind a wall that can either trigger a wall combo or even a dangerzone combo .. and for me that is a much higher risk than a mere knockdown. and I WOULD go for a HIGH hold.
- the follow up is MID. if I went for the HIGH hold the first hit attack would hit me but the 2nd has no variation. limiting the "guessing" to simply that single MID option! here I dont go straight away and hold .. because I KNOW the follow up is MID ... now the trained eye can spot the start animation of the move so once I see it i would go for that MID hold. But I wouldnt straight away for 2 reasons ...
1) the possibility of a free cancel (and thats where the opponent can do pretty much anything .. and yes as a defender I AM at a disadvantage )
2) the risk of a throw. which would result in a high counter throw.

.. you can argue that Rikuto's MID/LOW only argument would work the same by:
- reset the situation if he went for the LOW hold as the HIGH follow up would whiff,
and would beat the followup (if not delayed), would lose to the MID leading to the same situation of mine with having to weigh out the only MID , a hold cancel, and throw risk
- however, if he does a MID hold, that would put him in a state where hes open to the HIGH follow-up that would put him straight into the wall or danger zone and give the opponent that garanteed UNHOLDABLE damage. despite him beating the MID option or getting knocked down with the LOW

now looking at the 2 senarios ... i would MUCH rather go for the HIGH hold first and a possible MID 2nd over the LOW then MID (even though it would reach the same outcome from if the attacker went for the MID) because the risk of the knockdown is minimal over the risk of HIGH into enviromental garanteed stuff. and if I have the chance to stuff it and get me a nice chunk of damage then even BETTER! .

going for a DICE ROLL as rikuto would put it in this situation is madness because if you give yourself a 50/50 chance of getting a MID hold and the attacker went for the HIGH .. that immediately leads to massive damage and can destroy you

ofcourse this is all without factoring in that the itself could be free canceled and without factoring in that he might even go for a throw/low throw based on your reaction ...

theres too much involved in the mind game for just a mere 50/50 ... but if you study the stuation you can infact reduce the odds slightly to your favor (but not by much as you will always be at a disadvantage).

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Lets change the point of view here so that we can get a better grasp at the situation. Lets say every time my opponent blocks my unsafe attack, I can cancel out of disadvantage and attack right out of it. How exactly is my opponent going to be rewarded for having a good defense if I am able to escape punishment? He wont be able to. His defense would be practically useless because I can continue attacking no matter when he blocked. This will make the use of Blocking inefficient. This is exactly what is happening on the offensive stand point.

although I do like the idea of the reverse analogy I have to say I slightly disagree .. because you inserted BLOCKING into the equasion. and thats a totally different thing all together..
if he can cancel the attack .. then the attack is NOT unsafe.
holds cannot be canceled and if they are thrown out and they can be severely punished ..
so in fact it is NOT exactly what is happening in reverse.

when you look at kof 13.. you can infact cancel out of unsafe moves and continue your block string .. (at the cost of meter or activating your burst which gives you infinate cancelability till the meter runs out and can pretty much end a match by chip alone with some characters)

I can further expand the argument in theory and ask ... at what frame is this move cancelable ? would I be able to stick in a quick attack between the recovery frames of the unsafe move and the initial frames of the follow up ?

its just not that simple ..
in sf4 you had situations with characters where you can keep TRUE BLOCK STINGING at someone with safe strings till they break.. this is what make characters like fei long, AE yun/yang so good ... not to mention that they add to their madness by having command throws (with various advantagous properties.. i dont want to turn this into an SF discussion) .. but this is what made AE the most unpopular of all the series because it was out of balance .. and some characters can do it .. and some cant ... (with extreme ease might I add )

holds on the other hand are universal and a core mechanic .. and are infact punishable (especially in DOA5) and i mentioned this before that depending on the stun, the timing of which the hold can be done is varied and that as well is a major factor ..

EDIT:
this reminds me of this video I made acctually.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=na6tOz6K_xc#t=146s
if you look at this. the opponent is helpless as the string is TRUE. theres nothing they can do and I've won several matches (including tournament) this way.

this does NOT happen in DOA in reverse ... im sorry ..