Do you want a tournament scene?

[Chris Harris]

VP, I do not see how your analogy is going over some people's head. The main point is being missed and some people are completely jumping out the window on the smaller details of your statement.

So lets state the obvious (facts) that can't be argued against in any light. Holds are still stronger than attacks, they are 0i, and they can be used freely, this skews the triangle system and it looks like this, literally:


You remove them from stun and, things can be put back in their proper perspective. If they remain in stun, they need to be completely useless in stun; piss poor damage, recovery so long you'd wish you'd stayed stunned, you know, pretty much unforgiving. What they have done with them is a good start, but as it's being beat to death, it's not enough and still needs to be fixed.

Chris, it's really like talking to brick walls.

Well the problem is you always can out guess your opponent so it seems like the attacker has more options than he truly has. This is where the debate is stuck at because some people don't understand (or seem to not understand) what is happening when you are playing DoA.

No one wants to be on the offensive and HITTING someone with them to have a chance out at every turn. I don't understand how people are confused about this aspect of the game and how it hurts the game. This is why people are turned off from the game when it comes to the FGC. . .

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

like I said .. adding the DOA boosts to strikes ... will balance it out .. without the removal of holds from stuns ..

counter strike = auto mid height launch
hi counter strike = auto heighest launch = no need to reach critical threshold
normal launch = the current low height

single stun into launch = low height
single stun + anything (even a jab) into launch = mid height
threshold = you get a stun situation similar to sitdown and you cannot hold immediately (i.e. a monkey can read the hold attempt) + if you launch you get the highest launch

these signifficantly boost strikes and make them very lethal .. i want this back in DOA5 ... then in my opinion the triangle will balance out ...

(on a side note ... while editing the video on triangle system i came accross this ... and I just thought I'd share cuz ive never seen it before .. LOL)

if anyones curious heres the hand gestures as well

for some bizzare reason i find this oddly related .. LOL

 

[Chris Harris]

So because you refuse to even begin to understand what is being debated I'll just say I disagree with you. I suggest you let it go as well.

We should all just drop it. We have put in our input and it's clear we have those who want to change the system and those who want to keep it near the same. Let's agree to disagree

 

[HayabusaKawasaki]

How is shitting on Tekken and SFxTK helping DOA's situation?
say what you will about those games but the fact that they are at majors is the point hes making. Unless DOA5 gets into the next road to EVO, you honestly can't say shit.

D3V has said this in the past many times. It doesn't matter on the game, as long as it's community supports it...it'll make it. Melty Blood is the perfect example. If an anime fighter that never had a US release can be played at EVO then any game has a chance. DOA5 has the same chances as VF5FS or KOFXIII coming back for another year, If you wana complain about EVO having games like SFxTK in their lineup then go ahead...the salt mines are waiting.

SFxTekken is a fucking trash game, yet got a guaranteed spot at EVO, that's why. MK9 last year before release got a guaranteed spot at EVO before the game was even released despite everyone talking mad shit about it. My point is you are wasting your time trying to get this community to accept your game, because they just won't, period. They c an remove counters altogether and literally make the game a clone of Tekken, this community will STILL SHIT ON IT. This community is all about ranting and raving about games having to be tournament worthy and hating "scrub shit", yet they'll barely even play the games they claim are the best and would rather play the "shit" games while endlessly bitching. They dropped MvC2 like a bad habit despite claiming MvC3 is some shit scrub garbage casual game. It's all esports shit, they don't care about a game being the most competitive, they only care about numbers and money, which is why top players will whine nonstop yet play these "shitty games", because they can get all these sucker casuals to go buy the game, get hyped on this "I'm gonna be competitive" bullshit, and then go to EVO and get rocked, while the top players get more pot money from these deluded suckers swarming in. If they really cared so much about competitive play, they'd be happier with a smaller community of very highly skilled players beasting on each other in games they consider to be competitive, as opposed to beating on scrubs in games they think are low level mindless shit.


MK9 improved drastically, know why it still gets played? Because the MORTAL KOMBAT community itself still supports the game and finally got off their asses and went to tournaments, because they knew damn well the "fighting game community" sure the fuck doesn't support it, with the endless whining about how the game is shit because it doesn't play like SF. Instead of fighting each other, support DOA the way the MK fans supported MK9, and you'll have your scene. Rely on these guys for a scene, and all that's gonna happen is if you're lucky a few people will go "ah they got rid of counters, ok Imma try this shit now" then they'll find some new reason for why the game "is shit and shouldn't be played", like "uh uh the movement is too fast, too many focuses on mid attacks, Hayabusa is busted, shit game".

Same reason Smash still goes strong despite Brawl being fucking absolute garbage, that community plays their game instead of wasting all their time begging Capcom fans to love their game. People like d3v will claim I'm full of shit, but I was around on SRK lurking long before he ever became a mod or Unity even existed. Trust me, completely changing the game around to appease these "hardcore tourney players" won't mean shit, because they'll just find another excuse to drop the game and go play Capcom Fighter #2838823 and bitch about how much it sucks. Frankly d3v has no credibility seeing as how most of the time his arguments boil down to "some tourney player said this so it must be true". And you guys will be stuck holding the bag wondering wtf happened. Oh well, I guess Rikuto and Dr. Dogg won't mind if they get this game ruined to appease some tourneyfags, and end up with all the real playerbase gone, then the tourneyfags ditching DOA5 and now those 2 can go play each other because no one else will fucking play. That shit is most likely why Master keeps telling you guys to put your bitching aside and support the game, because the fighting game community sure won't, and those tourney players pretty much made their minds up about DOA.

Here's an idea, how about you just tell Shimbori to bribe Daigo into saying the game is amazing? These tourneyfags will play anything so long as a tourney player says it's good, just look at SFxTekken. These dumbasses got hoodwinked into buying that shit all because Marn and J Wong and Daigo told them it was some amazing and awesome game, now they're all at SRK bitching endlessly about how the game sucks. Team Ninja, if you are reading this, just bribe some top players into saying the game is amazing and have them promote it, that's how you get a scene.

 

[Awesmic]

Now that's what I call speaking your mind.

I wish I had this man's guts.

 

[Rikuto]

hey man..

I should have been sightly clearer in my example .. (sorry this was my fault) ..
Im assuming a situation where you're not exactly near the wall but can be smacked into it from the follow up ..
I think this makes it more clear ... in this situation you dont worry about the wall throw ..

the other thing you need to consider is if your back was acctually stuck to the wall ..when this senario happened the 1st would slam into the wall as well unfortunately .. basicly making the argument slightly more complex as now the risk is between a high or a mid wall slam .... assuming the opponent DOES GO for a follow up i would still personally probably consider the HIGH/MID over LOW/MID .. simply because still it gives me the better odds .. (better than the low in this situation) .. tthen theres the situation when you slam into a danger zone .. then it doesnt matter ...

which brings me to another point .. that your position in the environment can severly ruin your odds. so when you're on the recieving side you are at less advantage if you are not aware of your barings ..

i didnt put throw in the equasion if you recall but I did mention that that as well can be a factor if we wanted to further expand on this ... but i was assuming the followup (which ever one) would come out. a high counter low throw can hurt alot as well .. not as much as a standing one obviously (and certainly not near the wall as you have clearly elaborated )

by the way i never acctually said your senario is bad .. or wrong ... i just said it was never 100% ..and im sure you agree on that as well ... and I would deffinately go for your option myself because in many situations because it is in fact the logical thing to do ..

at the end of the day theres too many elements involved in this like i said before..
from the attack timing, to the hold timing, to the attack height, to the hod height, throw , no throw, wall, no wall , human error, danger zones, slow escapes (not in this example but yes)..
and i honestly just dont see it as a 50/50 .. and I know you disagree on this .. but I just dont see it your way .. sorry ..

Maybe the first P pushed you into just enough range to be wall thrown. There's a thousand variations.

Hell even if it didn't, standing throws are not exactly small damage on most characters. You honestly think a high-counter Izuna drop isn't going to sting compared to a wall hit?

Emperor Cow does bring up more interesting points though. In DOA5Demo You can't immediately hold low or any hold for that matter to get out of a situation, can we all agree on this? Because its true if you haven't tested it yet. This even applies to most strings that are not your regular ,..Strings. This takes away the option that was once always available in past DOA games especially DOA4 which was to immediately spam the hold of choice, usually low, and getting out of the situation.

They don't recover as fast as they used to, tis true, but they still avoid more danger than any other basic hold.

With that said and everyone knowing that the hold window is smaller in DOA5Demo that means holds are more inclined on reaction than just a panic button. If hitomi hits you initially with and you are stunned and use any kind of hold then ALL her follow ups are guaranteed. That includes the punch, the kick and the sweep. You have to actually wait for the animation to come out to a point where you know your hold window will actually catch it since using it as a quick panic button works against you now. This is smart IMO and gives the attacker more confidence knowing that the defender can't just luckily hold your attack without actually seeing your attack coming(this is what just frame holders would do in the past). This is also true for moves like hayate's . If you hold immediately the kick will be successful.

Delays can throw a counter off and have always have been able to. This is not exactly something that is easy to time though, and there is no way to lab this out because every person is going to counter as fast or as slow as they feel like it. Hitomi has always been one of the more annoying characters to counter because she is basically the one character with a million different branching strings that go in every fucking direction and can be delayed for an eternity. That said, maybe she is better than most at just stuffing counters, but look how hard she has to work just to do that.

Should any character in the game have to guess past the neutral counter, than the stun counter, than the mid-string counter(s) just to get what may not even be a launch? Should people have to worry about possible delays coming out of the counter at the same time as all of that guessing?

That's working just a little too hard for much too little, don't you think?

@rikuto true boondocks is awesome, my apologies lol. However touching on what you said about the low hold being less risky compared to the other ones, I would have to disagree(DOA5 at least the recovery is the same as the rest). Although the low like you said avoids highs and will avoid low attacks IF executed at the right time (meaning not used like a panic button like mentioned above), it also has its downfalls. Low throws are NOT weak by any means (Ayane's currently is 50pts on normal and 75 on HC). We've always known they have had that additional risk because of the properties it has but another risk it has is if you are launched while low holding the height is higher then it would be normally adding more hits and more damage to the combo.

On high counter? No they aren't weak, but it's sure as hell not an Izuna/DDT/Naraku/etc. Low throws do not hurt nearly as much as standing throws, you know that.

 

[Rikuto]

derp

1. SFxT will get its opportunity due to moderate interest from the hype surrounding it, same as SCV. It is possible (and somewhat likely) neither will not be present next year however.

2. Smash is played because Nintendo fanboys love Nintendo games. It has very little to do with the fact that it's a good or bad fighting game. The minor technicality present in melee helped to win over a few people from the core FGC as well. Fighting games in general do not share the same luxury as having a massive brainwashed fanbase to call upon. We are usually a lot pickier about the games we play, and that can be seen in our smaller numbers compared to other genres.

3. MK9 is being played because their game actually did improve enough to warrant people caring about it. Were any of the MK games after UMK3 being played competitively? No they were not. And a lot of them did try, but nobody gave a damn because the games were terrible.

4. Sirlin endorsed DOA 4 to get it EVO 2k6. It's probably the only reason it was there tbh, but you notice something? It wasn't there ever again. Endorsement help to kick start people into trying something new, but they don't guarantee they will stick around.

Now that's what I call speaking your mind.

I wish I had this man's guts.

You saying you agree with him, or you just saying you admire his gumption?

Not that it takes much to post things on a message board...

 

[HayabusaKawasaki]

1. SFxT will get its opportunity due to moderate interest from the hype surrounding it, same as SCV. It is possible (and somewhat likely) neither will not be present next year however.

2. Smash is played because Nintendo fanboys love Nintendo games. It has very little to do with the fact that it's a good or bad fighting game. The minor technicality present in melee helped to win over a few people from the core FGC as well. Fighting games in general do not share the same luxury as having a massive brainwashed fanbase to call upon. We are usually a lot pickier about the games we play, and that can be seen in our smaller numbers compared to other genres.

3. MK9 is being played because their game actually did improve enough to warrant people caring about it. Were any of the MK games after UMK3 being played competitively? No they were not. And a lot of them did try, but nobody gave a damn because the games were terrible.

4. Sirlin endorsed DOA 4 to get it EVO 2k6. It's probably the only reason it was there tbh, but you notice something? It wasn't there ever again. Endorsement help to kick start people into trying something new, but they don't guarantee they will stick around.

Maybe so, but it got in to begin with despite the game being trash, due to connections with the company. Look at MvC3, that game has a massive community despite the fact the pros claim it sucks(as well as the hardcore wannabes who make sure to spam SRK to tell everyone how much it sucks). Now if DOA is looked down upon by the pros and can't get that kind of notoriety, yet another game that is virtually despised and laughed at by pros can, why do you think that would be? Favoritism perhaps, because it's a Capcom fighter? This community is all about the benjamins, e-fame, and what's new, not what is hardcore. If it were, MvC2 would be the main event at EVO, and MvC3 wouldn't even be there. MvC3 is there, partly due to Capcom influence, partly due to the fact the fans play it regardless how many "hardcore players" come on forums or streams or videos to whine about how it "sucks so bad is the dumbest game ever". Even if J Wong and all those guys dropped MvC3 it would still get played due to the fact the fanbase couldn't give a rats ass if some top player hates the game, because they enjoy it themselves and continue to support it.

MK9 is being played, yes because it improved, and also because for the first time the game was good enough where the community was inspired to get off its ass and go to tournaments and support their game. Considering people like J Wong who trashed the game, and the endless SRK posts and spam saying the game sucks, lacks depth, and the "MK9 is gonna die before/after EVO" bullshit(Capcom fans made sure to spam nonstop to let MK fans know that MK9 was shit, trash, and a failure, and will die after EVO, every chance they got) MK9 should have died. It lived because the Mortal Kombat community supported the game, and commanded respect. Everyone was galvanized, be it the hardcore MK players who liked MK9 and wanted the game to do well, to the casuals who loved blood and gore and got fed up with Capcom fans insulting their game all the time. They all banded together and ensured the game didn't "die after EVO"

With DOA you got people still fighting over the counter system, with people demanding it be gone or threatening to not play it anymore. Despite the fact the counter system is part of what makes the gameplay stand out from other 3d fighters, since you have ways to mitigate long combos instead of getting hit and having to watch that shit ad nauseum. It's a different style of game, why should it have to change to appease people who will shit on it anyway? Change the game for some fairweather players? Sure worked out for MK9 right, with them overhauling the game, just so people like J Wong can say "it's shit, it sucks, doesn't play like SF, it sucks". Removal of counters won't mean shit, they'll find another reason to hate the game, they'll bitch about it being two buttons for attack, they'll bitch about the strings being too easy to do or too strong, they'll bitch about juggle mechanics, bitch about stage structure/danger zones. Just like how with MK9 no matter how many improvements it got, it was "ah it sucks, has no crossups, block button is retarded, no chain combos like a Capcom fighter, don't like the jumps, I hate combo breakers, blood and gore is stupid" and so on.

Smash is a perfect example, because the fans support it so much, even a shit game has a huge community. If DOA's community supported it like that, it would do a lot better. The alternative is to rearrange the game completely to appease "top players" who will play it a few times for prize money, then say the game fucking blows, and drop it to go back to Marvel/SF4/Tekken. Now that doesn't mean the counter system is fine as is, but instead of demanding it get removed to be like "every other fighting game", they should just tweak it and actually make it work. That's another problem with this genre, people want every fighter to use the exact same style of gameplay mechanics, and anything that deviates from the norm gets shunned and called not competitive(Smash Melee for example). Every other fighting game with the exception of maybe MK9 has you get hit and eat a long combo, so why not have DOA be something different?

Oh and as per your Sirlin example, same thing happened with MK9, it got lots of endorsements from Tom Brady, Warner Bros putting up HUGE prize monies for tournies, and even despite the game being catered to tournament players with gameplay changes designed to make it play well and nothing like the shit 3d MK games, people like J Wong ran in and entered tournies, won some money, said the game was shit, and left. Now what would have happened if after that the MK fans got divided, with like half of them going "yeah J Wong is right, this game is shit, let's all fight over it instead of actually playing it!"? Only reason it survived was the MK community took it upon themselves to keep playing and supporting the game DESPITE the fighting game community, not because of it. DOA needs to do the same, supporting the game regardless what anyone says. Honestly I don't know why people care so much about what a top player says, these same guys claimed fucking SFxTekken was better and deeper than fucking GUILTY GEAR.

 

[Rikuto]

That's kind of like asking why MK can't be a 3D game with blood guts and gore, multiple stances and weapon systems and special moves and meter and killzones etc etc.

Because it's a really terrible formula that doesn't resonate with anybody who would want to play it competitively.

DOA, as it has been in the past, has been a terrible formula that people hate for the most part. Now its quite unique in some regards, and the CONCEPT of the hold in stun is cool, but it has never worked well competitively. DOA 4 had a lot of interest at first, and way more opportunity and support than it ever deserved. It failed really hard. You don't see people playing any of the other DOA games competitively either, right?

It will fail again. That's the only natural conclusion unless you move for change.

Honestly I'd love to let "DOA be DOA", but I don't see DOA as needing to be this big counter-intensive game everyone else does in my heart. I see it as ninjas, assassins, wrestlers, exploding walls, tits, ease of input, ease of movement, falling off cliffs, mother fucking fireballs, a samurai with a double sided lightsaber, fuckin... Tengu!

I see DOA as "Cool Shit Happening: The Fighting Game".

Counters have so very little to do with the game or the spirit of the game in my heart. I don't see it ever turning into Tekken, counters or not.

Unfortunately, everything the vocal minority is saying about "let DOA be DOA" doesn't really help it grow much. You all could have said the same thing when DOA 4 was released, and it would have failed because it would have been the same exact game which did fail.

 

[Chris Harris]

Maybe so, but it got in to begin with despite the game being trash, due to connections with the company. Look at MvC3, that game has a massive community despite the fact the pros claim it sucks(as well as the hardcore wannabes who make sure to spam SRK to tell everyone how much it sucks). Now if DOA is looked down upon by the pros and can't get that kind of notoriety, yet another game that is virtually despised and laughed at by pros can, why do you think that would be? Favoritism perhaps, because it's a Capcom fighter? This community is all about the benjamins, e-fame, and what's new, not what is hardcore. If it were, MvC2 would be the main event at EVO, and MvC3 wouldn't even be there.

MK9 is being played, yes because it improved, and also because for the first time the game was good enough where the community was inspired to get off its ass and go to tournaments and support their game. Considering people like J Wong who trashed the game, and the endless SRK posts and spam saying the game sucks, lacks depth, and the "MK9 is gonna die before/after EVO" bullshit(Capcom fans made sure to spam nonstop to let MK fans know that MK9 was shit, trash, and a failure, and will die after EVO, every chance they got) MK9 should have died. It lived because the Mortal Kombat community supported the game, and commanded respect. Everyone was galvanized, be it the hardcore MK players who liked MK9 and wanted the game to do well, to the casuals who loved blood and gore and got fed up with Capcom fans insulting their game all the time. They all banded together and ensured the game didn't "die after EVO"

With DOA you got people still fighting over the counter system, with people demanding it be gone or threatening to not play it anymore. Despite the fact the counter system is part of what makes the gameplay stand out from other 3d fighters, since you have ways to mitigate long combos instead of getting hit and having to watch that shit ad nauseum. It's a different style of game, why should it have to change to appease people who will shit on it anyway? Change the game for some fairweather players? Sure worked out for MK9 right, with them overhauling the game, just so people like J Wong can say "it's shit, it sucks, doesn't play like SF, it sucks". Removal of counters won't mean shit, they'll find another reason to hate the game, they'll bitch about it being two buttons for attack, they'll bitch about the strings being too easy to do or too strong, they'll bitch about juggle mechanics, bitch about stage structure/danger zones. Just like how with MK9 no matter how many improvements it got, it was "ah it sucks, has no crossups, block button is retarded, no chain combos like a Capcom fighter, don't like the jumps, I hate combo breakers, blood and gore is stupid" and so on.

Smash is a perfect example, because the fans support it so much, even a shit game has a huge community. If DOA's community supported it like that, it would do a lot better. The alternative is to rearrange the game completely to appease "top players" who will play it a few times for prize money, then say the game fucking blows, and drop it to go back to Marvel/SF4/Tekken. Now that doesn't mean the counter system is fine as is, but instead of demanding it get removed to be like "every other fighting game", they should just tweak it and actually make it work. That's another problem with this genre, people want every fighter to use the exact same style of gameplay mechanics, and anything that deviates from the norm gets shunned and called not competitive(Smash Melee for example). Every other fighting game with the exception of maybe MK9 has you get hit and eat a long combo, so why not have DOA be something different?

Oh and as per your Sirlin example, same thing happened with MK9, it got lots of endorsements from Tom Brady, Warner Bros putting up HUGE prize monies for tournies, and even despite the game being catered to tournament players with gameplay changes designed to make it play well and nothing like the shit 3d MK games, people like J Wong ran in and entered tournies, won some money, said the game was shit, and left. Now what would have happened if after that the MK fans got divided, with like half of them going "yeah J Wong is right, this game is shit, let's all fight over it instead of actually playing it!"? Only reason it survived was the MK community took it upon themselves to keep playing and supporting the game DESPITE the fighting game community, not because of it. DOA needs to do the same, supporting the game regardless what anyone says. Honestly I don't know why people care so much about what a top player says, these same guys claimed fucking SFxTekken was better and deeper than fucking GUILTY GEAR.

You are arguing something that is so dumb I'm not truly sure why I'm responding. . .

People want FINALITY with their offense. Your argument is basically "If I make a bad call I should have two or three chances to break free and actually do more damage than the attacker". Games are about out playing your opponent on some level not playing a magical game of chicken.

What you want is a game that allows bad players with horrible defense and without the ability to consider blocking to have a way out at all times. Only community were 90% of the people have 0 defensive capabilities. It's bad enough the game forces you to guess but giving the defender that much power over you is ridiculous. . .I can't believe you guys just don't see it. Well I'm sure I understand why you don't understand. . .

 

[Rikuto]

You are arguing something that is so dumb I'm not truly sure why I'm responding. . .

People want FINALITY with their offense. Your argument is basically "If I make a bad call I should have two or three chances to break free and actually do more damage than the attacker". Games are about out playing your opponent on some level not playing a magical game of chicken.

What you want is a game that allows bad players with horrible defense and without the ability to consider blocking to have a way out at all times. Only community were 90% of the people have 0 defensive capabilities. It's bad enough the game forces you to guess but giving the defender that much power over you is ridiculous. . .I can't believe you guys just don't see it. Well I'm sure I understand why you don't understand. . .

If you tell him it's because he never played it at high level, beware.

Newcomers hate that shit. They'll just call you an elitist prick, even if you KNOW you're telling them the gospel truth. And it sucks, I know, there really isn't a way for them to understand without the experience. The only reason we are even having to infight with our community is due to that major gap in experience and the incredibly small window of time left to affect this games development. It's pretty ridiculous...

So much unnecessary bullshit holding us back, all because of some stupid misunderstandings about the way things work further up the ladder.


Alright, look. There are a lot of fixes on this. Removing holds from stun is the most straight forward and would probably get the best results, but it pisses some people off.


So here is my official stance right now.

-- Low holds do not put a person into crouching state, so they can still be hit by high attacks. There is no good reason they are able to avoid two hit levels inside of a stun, this fucks with the game too much.

-- Holds are changed back to 4 point, have half their active frames cut and added to the recovery.

-- a few frames added to execution of holds to prevent whiff punishment from being overly dangerous, and making heavy frame advantage moves somewhat more intimidating.

-- Every single stuffed counter will add 0.5X normal damage scaling on every proceeding attack in that combo. If you stuff a counter, it's 1.5X. Next counter, 2.0X. Next counter, 2.5X, and so on. This turns a lightly damaging juggle into a moderately painful one, and a moderately painful one into a really painful one. A really painful one into complete death (which you would entirely deserve for being such an incredible asshole as to have not only set yourself up environmentally, but failed to get out multiple times)

This would create very real punishment for just throwing counters out there every single time there is a stun, and while it leaves throws as viable means of punishing and it would turn certain situations into short and FAST death combos that won't take forever to play out. This is what frustrates people off about death combos usually, that they have to sit back for a year and watch themselves die. Here you're doing the same combo as normal, but it's doing a lot more damage.

The attacker still feels like he is in mathematical control over his offense because the low hold isn't as dominant, and high attacks regain their sense of danger. The risk/reward is also clearly tailored in the attackers favor as well. If he is fairly certain a hold is coming and wants to take less risk, he can still bait it out and use a throw for the quick punish instead of trying to drag things out til the end of the stun.

People who believe they should be able to hold out of stun, still can. There will be massive danger associated with it, but you're free to do it. The more times you hold in a stun, the more you're going to pay for it when you screw up. It's not a get out of jail free card, it is a daring jail break. You are in control of that though. For safer options, slow escape will still exist.

This solution would take less work out of team ninja to implement and probably cater to both sides a lot more in the long run. They will have more time to work on character balance and putting in cool shit this way, instead of re-working the entire stun engine and everything else from the ground up.

 

[HayabusaKawasaki]

You are arguing something that is so dumb I'm not truly sure why I'm responding. . .

People want FINALITY with their offense. Your argument is basically "If I make a bad call I should have two or three chances to break free and actually do more damage than the attacker". Games are about out playing your opponent on some level not playing a magical game of chicken.

What you want is a game that allows bad players with horrible defense and without the ability to consider blocking to have a way out at all times. Only community were 90% of the people have 0 defensive capabilities. It's bad enough the game forces you to guess but giving the defender that much power over you is ridiculous. . .I can't believe you guys just don't see it. Well I'm sure I understand why you don't understand. . .

That's not what I want at all, I said the system itself is flawed, but just axing it is an extreme solution as opposed to thinking outside the box and fixing it. I mean, breakers work fine in MK9, yet I've seen people bitch about those because "if I hit you I earned the right to combo you as long as I want." Mind you breakers in MK9 use meter, do no damage to the opponent, and are basically just a "gtfo mechanic" no different from the guard cancels in KoF, yet because it interrupts someone from doing some long as fuck combo they learned via watching Desk videos, it offends them. The sad thing is even if somehow TN fixed countering to be more like how MK9 did it, there'd still be tourney players saying it sucks because the game actually gives people a way to fight back instead of watching overly long combos. Some people want to play FIGHTING games, not Simon Sez.

Again, I don't know why people have this fixation with trying to appease tourney players, when half the time they spew the most retarded bullshit and get people to go along with it. Like J Wong tweeting that MvC3 was a trash game and sucked dick before release, with people swarming SRK going "OMG the game sucks, J Wong said so, I won't play a game he doesn't like". Then mysteriously when he retweeted later saying the game was good, it was omfg the game is so good cuz J Wong likes it, Imma buy it now. Sanford Kelly telling people MvC3 sucks because "girls can beat men now", then saying he's gonna play the game anyway despite it sucking so bad so he can prove how bad it sucks(instead of maybe playing a game he thinks is good and promoting that instead?). These are the same guys who claimed SFxTekken was better and a deeper game than both GG and Third Strike, and basically hoodwinked naive people into buying a shit game; because all people know is "OMFG a top player said it, it must be true!"

I'm sorry I mean, I respect high level play, but I don't blindly follow somehow regardless how good they are at a game. Look at MvC3 and Dark Pheonix. People bitched nonstop about her, top players and tournament commentators included. Oh she's so cheap, she's fucking retarded, omfg how could Capcom design such a broken pos character. People ranting endlessly about how broken she is. At some point you figure common sense would say "gee, if this character is this braindead and this fucking broken, maybe she ought to be banned?"

"No, we're not the smash community, if it's in the game, you deal with that shit, period!"
"But you banned Akuma in ST because he was broken..."
"Yeah, but Dark Phoenix is beatable, he wasn't. She's just broken as shit and any idiot can use her for an easy win! Just don't ban her though, that's against competitive play!"

So we get a character who damn near everyone agrees is a busted poorly designed pos who practically ruined the game at high levels, yet no one wanted to ban her out of some arbitrary "we must keep her in even if she's broken" code, so everyone can whine about how awful she is. Same for Hilde in SC4, that game might not have died if someone just banned the damn character instead of being scared some "top player" will call them a scrub for doing that and adhering to that ruleset. I just can't take people like that seriously. I won't even get into the fact that I honestly believe Capcom paid off people to hype SFxTekken so much to try and rip naive customers off. They know damn well this community is full of bandwagoners and people who idolize top players, just toss some money their way to say your game is the best thing ever, and bam, people rush to buy the game because so and so said it was amazing.

 

[DriftSlave]

wall of BS

Most if not all of what you just posted is some county fried bullshit. Your Point has been nullified by multiple people and events. Again Melty Blood, a anime fighter which people at SRK had shitted on repeatedly got to be at even on it's own merits and it's community, Same with BlazBlue. Please STFU about SRK being the problem in why a game doesn't make it to Evo. It's Ironic because you shoot yourself in the foot by saying the MK community got MK9 to Evo due to community support. What? Does your logic only run one way?

Your next statement is the funniest of all, What is the player base for DOA right now...a chair? Dr.Dogg and Rikuto are stating the fucking obvious, if DOA5 isn't competitive on a wide scale then you will have your 15 man tournaments with Masters.

 

[RoboJoe]

SFxTekken is a fucking trash game, yet ...snip for length of post

I know the kind of people you're talking about. They don't care about the games, just the drama and you're right, they'll gravitate towards Capcom games because that's what has the most coverage. They know more about perceived and real rivalries among actual players and other meta shit than they do about the game they're "playing". I'll bet that most of them only play the games casually while convincing themselves otherwise. After all, no room for learning the game when you spend all day watching streams or stupid skits and trolling on forums pretending they're hot shit just because they spend 15 minutes a week in training mode beating up a dummy, all while spouting shit Yipes said ten years ago. These are called bandwagoners.

You are stereotyping all players as bandwagoners. You're wrong. Not all people who play Capcom games are bandwagoners and even if they somehow were, there are several other communities out there with players who have never even touched a Capcom game. The point of making DOA competitive (read: making it less random and more in line with other games) is to lay the foundation for these players who aren't looking at DOA because it's the new flavor of the month and genuinely like it and want to play a new game competitively.

Saying that master is the only one who supports the community is a huge insult to people like Sorwah who have done so much to keep the community alive and make it grow. They've done everything they can with the material they have to work with, which is a game no one wants to play. Just like no one wanted to play MK before MK9. No one wants to play MK vs DC and no one wants to play DOA. DOA has a chance to get its equivalent to MK9 with DOA5, but if holds stay the same, it will just get another MK vs DC instead.

On another note, why do people seem to believe that holds in stun are so god damn important to DOA's identity? You couldn't even do it in the first game.

 

[HayabusaKawasaki]

Most if not all of what you just posted is some county fried bullshit. Your Point has been nullified by multiple people and events. Again Melty Blood, a anime fighter which people at SRK had shitted on repeatedly got to be at even on it's own merits and it's community, Same with BlazBlue. Please STFU about SRK being the problem in why a game doesn't make it to Evo. It's Ironic because you shoot yourself in the foot by saying the MK community got MK9 to Evo due to community support. What? Does your logic only run one way?

Your next statement is the funniest of all, What is the player base for DOA right now...a chair? Dr.Dogg and Rikuto are stating the fucking obvious, if DOA5 isn't competitive on a wide scale then you will have your 15 man tournaments with Masters.

MK9 got into EVO due to MONEY, which WB has lots of and guess what the guys running EVO care more about? MONEY. It's a known fact Wizard despises SFxTekken, so why is it at EVO then? Gee, money perhaps? MK9 stayed around due to their community supporting it so much and not giving up on it even with people shitting on it so much. Melty Blood? Seriously, who cares? They had to annoy the ever living shit out of Wizard, and gee, why is SFxTekken, a shit game that even he hates at EVO now, yet Melty Blood isn't? What would the makers of SFxTekken have that Melty Blood doesn't? Oh yeah, lots of money. Unless you're telling me that after getting into EVO that one time, the MB community stopped caring and decided not to play anymore or nag to get the game in again for another year? Yeah, I'm sure they gave up after finally getting that moment they wanted in the spotlight. Hell, I've heard somewhere Wizard only even gave them that slot because they had a free one up due to another game not being in, and he figured he'd give it to them since they kept begging for it so damn much. It sure as hell didn't get in because a bunch of top players thought "wow, this game is so awesome and skillful and deep and caters to us, lets demand it at EVO!"

I also love how you seem to have this erroneous belief that if a game is some mystically deep game designed for hardcore tourney players, that it'll magically get a huge fanbase and tourney play, while a game not designed for that will be chairs. VF is chairs, don't feed me some shit about how it's played in Japan, what about here? Every damn time people bring up VF, lauding it for it's massive depth as a competitive game, yet no one fucking plays it here. Oh boo hoo, Sega didn't port for years? What was stopping all these top players from buying copies of the game and playing it together at events? VF4 EVO? Why not keep on playing that til Vf5 finally came out, instead of playing SF4 and MvC3 and now SFxTekken while whining endlessly about how much they suck and how awesome VF is? SF4 and MvC3, 2 games top players claim are trash and cater to scrubs, yet everyone plays it anyway. DOA not getting played as much has shit to do with it being a "scrubby game", it's the fact it's just not liked by this community period, and nothing short of Ayane herself coming out the damn screen to suck the players off would make them change their minds.


County fried bullshit? More like you'd rather keep your head in the sand than have someone tell the truth about this bullshit community. The same community that rags on games for not being skillful and competitive enough, yet will keep playing the very games they claim to hate so damn much. I never in my life saw a damn community that spends all their time playing games they HATE and bitching about it. My entire point is DOA will be hated by most people simply due to what it is, that game's best bet is to have TN bribe some tourney players into saying the game is amazing, and the DOA community just makes sure to support the fucking hell out of it no matter what. The "fighting game community" is one huge laughable joke. This is the same community that rants and raves about MvC3 having "dumbed down controls", and how the controls are too simplified and any idiot can play and do well. Yet when UltraDavid tried out UFC Undisputed 3 he and others said the controls were "too complex" and required "time to get used to." Think about that for a second, if a game has simple controls it's too simplified and any idiot can play and caters to scrubs, if a game doesn't have simplified controls it's too hard to play and they'd rather play something with easy controls. LOL

Really, let's say they remove counters from DOA5, and the game is at EVO. Then J Wong beasts on everyone including Master and says "This game sucks, only 2 buttons for attack? LOL" and leaves. Now if you have a strong DOA community, the game will live, you'll just need to endure the endless shit talk and spam like MK9 fans have. If you don't, you get to end up like MB, reliving that "one time we got in EVO" and living down people mocking your game every chance they get and no one playing it because they're too terrified someone at SRK will call them a scrub.

 

[Rikuto]

Honestly, I think there is something about the human conscience that struggles against the idea of being helpless in a fight. When someone calls a game a "juggle fest" its probably because they feel like they ARE helpless after they make a mistake, and that pisses them off. These same people, if got into a real fight are probably the types who would try and trade punches even when they were pinned to the ground rather than block up when they started getting wailed on.

That's just one kind of human nature, and traditional fighting games really don't appeal to them for that reason because it denies them the ability to just fight with reckless abandon.

Rather than have is fight over unrelated crap we don't at all agree on, Hayabusa, can you at least tell me what you think of the changes I wrote here?

So here is my official stance right now.

-- Low holds do not put a person into crouching state, so they can still be hit by high attacks. There is no good reason they are able to avoid two hit levels inside of a stun, this fucks with the game too much.

-- Holds are changed back to 4 point, have half their active frames cut and added to the recovery.

-- a few frames added to execution of holds to prevent whiff punishment from being overly dangerous, and making heavy frame advantage moves somewhat more intimidating.

-- Every single stuffed counter will add 0.5X normal damage scaling on every proceeding attack in that combo. If you stuff a counter, it's 1.5X. Next counter, 2.0X. Next counter, 2.5X, and so on. This turns a lightly damaging juggle into a moderately painful one, and a moderately painful one into a really painful one. A really painful one into complete death (which you would entirely deserve for being such an incredible asshole as to have not only set yourself up environmentally, but failed to get out multiple times)

This would create very real punishment for just throwing counters out there every single time there is a stun, and while it leaves throws as viable means of punishing and it would turn certain situations into short and FAST death combos that won't take forever to play out. This is what frustrates people off about death combos usually, that they have to sit back for a year and watch themselves die. Here you're doing the same combo as normal, but it's doing a lot more damage.

The attacker still feels like he is in mathematical control over his offense because the low hold isn't as dominant, and high attacks regain their sense of danger. The risk/reward is also clearly tailored in the attackers favor as well. If he is fairly certain a hold is coming and wants to take less risk, he can still bait it out and use a throw for the quick punish instead of trying to drag things out til the end of the stun.

People who believe they should be able to hold out of stun, still can. There will be massive danger associated with it, but you're free to do it. The more times you hold in a stun, the more you're going to pay for it when you screw up. It's not a get out of jail free card, it is a daring jail break. You are in control of that though. For safer options, slow escape will still exist.

This solution would take less work out of team ninja to implement and probably cater to both sides a lot more in the long run. They will have more time to work on character balance and putting in cool shit this way, instead of re-working the entire stun engine and everything else from the ground up.

 

[HayabusaKawasaki]

Honestly, I think there is something about the human conscience that struggles against the idea of being helpless in a fight. When someone calls a game a "juggle fest" its probably because they feel like they ARE helpless after they make a mistake, and that pisses them off. These same people, if got into a real fight are probably the types who would try and trade punches even when they were pinned to the ground rather than block up when they started getting wailed on.

That's just one kind of human nature, and traditional fighting games really don't appeal to them for that reason because it denies them the ability to just fight with reckless abandon.

For some people it's also boring doing it to someone as well, sometimes it feels like autopilot, like "ah time to do that combo I saw in that youtube video!"

 

[Rikuto]

For some people it's also boring doing it to someone as well, sometimes it feels like autopilot, like "ah time to do that combo I saw in that youtube video!"

Holy shit, I'm talking to my younger self. Well, at least I know where you're coming from now....

A game without combos is a game without anything to practice, and no real technical expertise. Every single engagement would be based around spacing and whiff punishment, more or less. That's fine if its what the game is, like Bushido Blade for example is settled often in one hit kills, so there isn't much of anything to practice besides the spacing and landing of the attack that will kill your enemy while avoiding his own.

Games that rely on a healthbar need cool combos though, and when you have combos you need intricate ones because there has to be something that separates the player who is mashing attacks like a madman and the one who knows what he is actually doing.

And to a lot of us, its the exact opposite as what you described. Intricate juggles can be an impossibly difficult, game turning and crowd stirring artform.

 

[DriftSlave]

another wall of BS

VF5 is going to be streamed at Shadowloo Showdown in a few minutes, VF doesn't have a strong community but at least they are trying to make up for lost time. You however are being really ignorant of the fact that people are going to shit on any game(yes even SRK's beloved SkullGirls gets shitted on). The fact still remains that Games like SCV and KOFXIII are at EVO because their communities help get them there. You bring up money is involved while DOA4 is the worst offender of this...If anything the only money thats involved is the actually publishers getting involved in help promote their product...more then what I can say about DOA5.


I have a feeling your going to keep talking in circles so don't bother replying, I can't stand reading your wall of nonsense of you trying to justify your BS. You obviously don't want a big tournament scene for DOA5, you want to keep your 15 man tournaments so i'll leave you to that...I'll go back to play SFxTK and SCV, and enter ranbats for said games.

 

[HayabusaKawasaki]

Holy shit, I'm talking to my younger self. Well, at least I know where you're coming from now....

A game without combos is a game without anything to practice, and no real technical expertise. Every single engagement would be based around spacing and whiff punishment, more or less. That's fine if its what the game is, like Bushido Blade for example is settled often in one hit kills, so there isn't much of anything to practice besides the spacing and landing of the attack that will kill your enemy while avoiding his own.

Games that rely on a healthbar need cool combos though, and when you have combos you need intricate ones because there has to be something that separates the player who is mashing attacks like a madman and the one who knows what he is actually doing.

And to a lot of us, its the exact opposite as what you described. Intricate juggles can be an impossibly difficult, game turning and crowd stirring artform.

Ok, that I do agree with. My only fear with removing holds in stuns is that the game would go down the road Tekken did, juggles can be fun and cool to perform and see, but that game it feels like it focuses too much on it. I don't think I ever even saw a King player use any holds except for like one that works midjuggle, because it seems like there's no reason NOT to go for the juggle over anything else. Which is sad because it's downright bizarre when I see a grappler character who almost rarely grapples.

I do think being able to get smacked by the start of a combo then reversing it and sending someone flying off a ledge as they lose like half their health is stupid though. To be fair landing a hit only for you to get interrupted almost everytime feels just as shitty as being trapped in a seemingly endless juggle combo in Tekken 6. And obviously you wouldn't want it to be a game where anytime someone gets hit they can just mash out a counter, least in MK9 you lose meter doing that and can't do it anytime you feel like it.

I also apologize if it seemed as though I was implying only Master supported the game. My thing is I think he's prolly just saying regardless what direction this game goes, you can't rely on hoping tourney players like the game, would be tragic if Shimbori made all those changes and then the game still got trashed/ignored, only then the game sells poorly due to the other fans leaving. It's a bit of a hard spot I admit.