Do you want a tournament scene?

[Berzerk!]

Myself, Myke (VFDC owner) and a number of the other players pushing VF competitively at events have no issue with VF at EVO. Sega have to do what they do to place it there. And sure, we all got stomped gloriously by Fuudo, but the consensus is that you can adjust fairly quickly to the changes even though they feel overwhelming at first.
Just look at how well Ryan Hart adjusted to come back against MOV, Myke, and put in a good showing against Fuudo.
Myke was able to take matches off Fuudo in Exhibitions, so while there is a clear gap, its not insurmountable.

So I think its somewhat moot and more important that the game is promoted. They are also sharing the money well down the top 16. Local players will definitely get in there. I see your point about running it later (and who says they won't?) but the fact is EVO is the best stage to promote the game.

The difference to the above for DOA is that there ARE no Japanese expert players to "take our money" and it will be a level footing. I'm not saying they have to put up money like that, but 15k in your marketing budget on a tournament with guaranteed worldwide interest is a pretty modest and smart spend imho. Players will be fine.

 

[CyberEvil]

All of the "killers" in DoA are in the US, to be blunt. I've played against a couple of the best Japanese players and while they're good (Mochi in particular), our best are clearly better. I don't think guaranteed money will entice anybody to come over in a game that's as heavily stacked against them as DoA.

 

[Rikuto]

I just did a 9 hit open space combo that actually did less than 1/4 bar. I didn't even know that was possible.

And you guys actually think damage scaling is going to hurt this game?

Of course this game is boring to watch. Nothing besides an izuna is even remotely intimidating in this game. My punches look like fucking bee stings.

 

[Berzerk!]

We do not know the success of VF5FS yet...SEGA hasn't even given us a release date....something is fishy with that.

No its not. They have an event planned at which they will announce it, and it's pretty clear it will be by mid June (in time for EVO).
http://shoryuken.com/2012/03/22/seg...own-pre-launch-party-in-los-angeles-may-19th/

(This is when I DO NOT FACTOR ANY ARCADE FOOTAGE, only Console trailers). Tekken is DOA's competition, im just being realistic.

I don't think the timing is such right now that any of this matters too much, but looking at the trailers, comparisons based on top searches on Youtube:
TTT2 debut trailer 205k

DOA TGS debut trailer 412k

Latest DOA hotzone trailer via TK Europe 160k (they'd have a smaller subscriber base than the above that came up via search)

I'm not sure what any of it means if anything (nothing I wager), but the numbers for trailers aren't going against DOA.

I still prefer stuns that prevent counterholds completely, and/or attacks that ignore counterholds. Give me those two additions done right and that's a big step in the right direction. I also don't think that's difficult to add, even late into the development cycle.

With you on this... I assume you are talking about specific types of stuns, and types of attacks or as properties of certain attacks, as added tools rather than reworking the whole hold system.
In addition to tweaking of the frame data, I would agree this should be very achievable up to late in development.

And you guys actually think damage scaling is going to hurt this game?

Of course this game is boring to watch. Nothing besides an izuna is even remotely intimidating in this game. My punches look like fucking bee stings.

Isn't there some (up)scaling in the game already on counter blow? If you can punish on missed counters you would get this effect, likely a free launcher and big damage. These tend to be through crowd pleasingly flashy combos - but the poking/ground game would benefit from
1: Better sidestepping (fast!) and
2: More effective Powerblows. The new signature move needs to be more scary. Make it unholdable by normal hold, a little faster (so it can combo off a deep stun), and then you've got two ways (launcher and powerblow) to get a crowd on its feet when you've won the mind game and landed a good stun.

 

[Rikuto]

There is enough upscaling to make a 9 hit combo do less than 1/4 of a lifebar. I just watched it happen.

Does that seem like enough to you?

Meanwhile, Izuna counter did nearly 1/2. You're going to have a very hard time convincing me the upscaling doesn't need a drastic boost.

 

[Berzerk!]

All of the "killers" in DoA are in the US, to be blunt. I've played against a couple of the best Japanese players and while they're good (Mochi in particular), our best are clearly better. I don't think guaranteed money will entice anybody to come over in a game that's as heavily stacked against them as DoA.

One aside, I spoke to a number of the top players who were at SS about what games they would play at EVO and to give you an example, Justin Wong almost entered the VF tournament with no experience (on proviso we'd teach him - he decided he was too pressed for time), since he plans to learn it anyway and will be entering that tournament, just because it's at EVO.

There are so many top players that will enter ANY game just because it's at EVO. Justin, Tokido, Fuudo, and others were all playing Soul Calibur 5 even though they do not normally play that game, just because it is at EVO.

And given the skills of these players, I don't see them fearing our killers at all. They'll practice and get good like they do at every game.

There is enough upscaling to make a 9 hit combo do less than 1/4 of a lifebar. I just watched it happen.

Does that seem like enough to you?

Meanwhile, Izuna counter did nearly 1/2. You're going to have a very hard time convincing me the upscaling doesn't need a drastic boost.

I'd argue general damage should be upped, and/or Izuna counters need to be lowered. Probably just the latter would be enough. It's not the general damage but the comparative damage that is of concern. Part of me feels like its cool that Izuna rewards as it's harder to do now and only reacts to punches, but its still pretty easy, so yeah... drop its damage.

 

[Rikuto]

Advanced punch counters are stupid easy. Don't ever submit to the thought process that countering mid and high jabs is anything but autopilot. That is pure theorycraft and it's a fallacy, they are the easiest strikes to scout for in the game, bar none.

And yes, both of those are necessary especially since they increased the healthbar on normal. Matches are supposed to be won with strikes for most of the cast and sometimes throws for the grapplers, counters are a support tool. They shouldn't be able to do that.

 

[DriftSlave]

No its not. They have an event planned at which they will announce it, and it's pretty clear it will be by mid June (in time for EVO).


I don't think the timing is such right now that any of this matters too much, but looking at the trailers, comparisons based on top searches on Youtube:
I'm not sure what any of it means if anything (nothing I wager), but the numbers for trailers aren't going against DOA.

First why Mid June when when the pre-launch party is in May? Marvel 3's pre-launch party and release was in the same month....why should Sega's VF5FS be that much more of a wait makes no sense to me.

BandiNamco's YT page Tag2 VGA trailer has 620K veiws, Markmans Tag2 debut trailer has 437K...I believe Tekken still holds dem numbers.

 

[CyberEvil]

The Izuna, even as an advanced hold, is still very easy to do. All they did was tighten up the window a bit, which admittedly has made me drop it a few times. It does do a massive amount of damage for the effort put in, though.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

DOA 5 alpha vids havnt got shit for youtube views compared to other games. The audience is not as big as you think.

.

Look at the volume of Alpha videos with people playing the same 4 characters - everyone and there mother has video of themselves playing as one of those 4 characters, on the same level, vs a CPU thats probably on easy. Once the other demo drops (if there is another demo) with more characters and stages I think you'll see an uptick.

Also, the major release trailers have comparable views, just like whatever his name said.

 

[Matt Ponton]

@0:26 Watch me perform my Naraku high-counter throw punishment WITH environment assistance.

@2:51 Watch Hayabusa's counter and do more damage than my punish.

Truly, I can't imagine why anyone would hate this game.

looks about the same ~40%. Given the new life points that'd be about 108 for each.

But either way, I don't like the Izuna's damage for the difficulty it doesn't take to perform it - 3 point hold or not. I'd rather they just return it to a mid punch advanced hold instead of high/low as well and lower the damage off it/increase the input requirement. I mean I'm still upset that a 13 hit combo I performed with Hitomi into the dangerzone wall with followup did just as much damage as one advanced hold izuna. and the hitomi combo was a nh launch juggle into the dangerzone.

 

[Einzelkind]

Could anyone refresh my memory concerning the damage of Bayman's and Leifang's advanced holds? If they do around the same amount of damage as the Izuna holds in DOA5 you could at least somehow make sense of it considering the character individuality concept Shimbori wrote about...Hayabusa being build around his Izuna and all that jazz.

 

[x Sypher x]

Yeah but Hayabusa's Izuna has always been OP, with the exception of DOA3, so I don't think he was ever really built around that one special move. Now if he were to lack strength in strikes and throws and such, with the Izuna being his only powerful tool, then okay I guess that might kinda work, just nerf the damage a bit. But that's not the case. Characters like Bayman, Leon, Lisa, Tina and Bass (grapplers) however can get away with crazy damage in their throws.

 

[Allan Paris]

Yeah but Hayabusa's Izuna has always been OP, with the exception of DOA3

They were stupid in that game too.

 

[Rikuto]

Could anyone refresh my memory concerning the damage of Bayman's and Leifang's advanced holds? If they do around the same amount of damage as the Izuna holds in DOA5 you could at least somehow make sense of it considering the character individuality concept Shimbori wrote about...Hayabusa being build around his Izuna and all that jazz.

Baymans advanced holds are hit and miss. In DOA 3 I'd say they were all fine. He was a far more well rounded character back then and they were good holds, but they not over the top. In DOA 4 it's a different story.... they did more damage on base, and many got environmental assistance added to them as well. His Advanced mid punch was terrifying on levels like crash club or the lab because it could potentially slam into an electrified floor and an electrified wall. The other honorable mention was his advanced low punch hold which could result in either wall or floor damage on top of its already insane output. The rest of his options were all pretty good as well though, but not izuna-level insane.

In DOA 4, Bayman was garbage though, so it was like whatever... holding was all he could do, be it defensive or offensive holds. You wanna beat bayman's defense, you throw. you wanna beat his offense, you throw. So while I was pretty consistent at destroying everybody at the lower levels, I did run into problems consistently when I got to the big 4, as well as any competent player who had a certain matchup like kasumi who could just throw bayman once and loop him into 6k bullshit all day long on wakeup.

In DOA 5 I don't know if that'd be the case though. If you were to take his counters with their DOA 4 damage output and put them in DOA 5 with what appears to be a massively buffed up moveset with a LOT more mixup potential, I'd say he could well be a completely broken monster.

Some Bayman tests for old times sake...

in biolab core:

low punch hold into wall, NH 90 CH 109 HC 128

low punch hold into floor, NH 80 CH 97 HC 115

mid punch hold into floor+wall NH 87 CH 102 HC 119

mid punch hold into floor NH 73 CH 88 HC 105

Advanced Low punch is the most extreme example, but as you can see, even one of the shittiest characters in the game could be pretty downright terrifying if he guessed right. (spoiler: it was not hard to guess right)

 

[DrDogg]

One aside, I spoke to a number of the top players who were at SS about what games they would play at EVO and to give you an example, Justin Wong almost entered the VF tournament with no experience (on proviso we'd teach him - he decided he was too pressed for time), since he plans to learn it anyway and will be entering that tournament, just because it's at EVO.

Playing a game I know nothing about against someone who has been playing for two years is not fun. Add in the fact that it would be in a tournament, and that drains the fun even more. If the game releases before Evo, that's different. I'll still be outclassed, but at least I'll know what I'm doing. No release date yet, so I will have a problem with it until a pre-Evo release date is announced.

...and my [4th] Xbox doesn't work at the moment. Microsoft fail.

There are so many top players that will enter ANY game just because it's at EVO. Justin, Tokido, Fuudo, and others were all playing Soul Calibur 5 even though they do not normally play that game, just because it is at EVO.

And given the skills of these players, I don't see them fearing our killers at all. They'll practice and get good like they do at every game.

I think it should be noted that the SC5 tournament at SS was not impressive at all. I could've entered and won. I understand none of them played the game as their primary, so it's no surprise, but the level of competition wasn't all that high. Tokido won and showed poor meter management, lack of maximum damage combos, and somewhat limited character knowledge. I personally know two Aeon players that are far better than M. Lizard and Justin's Pyrrha was very basic and played relatively unsafe (yet was not punished by M. Lizard).

Again, there's a very good reason why it was like this, I'm just saying that in almost any US major for SC5, none of them would've even made top 8 at their current skill level. That may change by Evo (and likely will), but don't act like they were doing well to place top 4.

Could anyone refresh my memory concerning the damage of Bayman's and Leifang's advanced holds? If they do around the same amount of damage as the Izuna holds in DOA5 you could at least somehow make sense of it considering the character individuality concept Shimbori wrote about...Hayabusa being build around his Izuna and all that jazz.

If you have the ability to do ~50% off of an advanced hold, why would you bother doing much else? In fighting games you fish for whatever gives you good damage. In DOA that's holds, and it's ridiculous. It can be argued with reason that you stand a better chance of winning by "randomly" throwing out holds as opposed to trying to get a launch.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

How about a meter?

 

[DriftSlave]

I think Gems work better >_>' Auto Hold Gem.

 

[ScattereDreams]

How about a meter?

I always thought there should have been a counter meter that forces players to use holds wisely. If anyone is familiar with Blazblue's Bang Shishigami his projectile attacks are nails/shuriken's. They can be used for either offensive, or for defensive methods. But he can't spam them endlessly, because he's only aloud to use a certain amount per round.

As far as the recovery on holds, I do agree that the recovery needs to be longer. In Soul Calibur if you miss a GI you're getting punished no matter what. Of course now in Soul Calibur if you use a GI you better make it count, because if you miss it's a waste of meter (unless your character has a Auto GI). Maybe more Natural Combo's besides pp that can't be held, and more Normal Hit launchers for players that whiff holds. However, like I said that'll only work if the recovery on holds are increased.

 

[x Sypher x]

They were stupid in that game too.

Stupid as in powerful or stupid as in stupid? Lol