Holds Out Of Stun VS Marvel 3 Counter Exchange

[d3v]

I was thinking about whether DOA's hold system had a analogue in 2D games when the thought struck me - holds out of stun are somewhat analogous to Counter Exchanges in Marvel 3. Okay, you guys are probably thinking "that SRK gus has been smoking up again" but it actually makes sense. Holds out of stun, when compared to 2D game mechanics, are basically bursts. The main difference is that, most bursts mechanics have some for of limitation, they either have a separate meter, or take from the main super meter. Holds however are basically free, meterless bursts, the only limitation is that that they require your opponent to use a move that puts you in Critical State. The only other free, meterless burst in any modern 2D fighter is Counter Exchange from MvC3/UMvC3, their limitation is that they can only be done when an attacking player attempts to do a TAC. In fact, just like holds out of stun, Counter Exchange also uses a 3 point system, upwards exchange, downward exchange and side exchange.

The question now is, why is Counter Exchange acceptable in Marvel but holds out of stun are looked down upon. The answer is really simple, you don't need to TAC to kill an opposing character in Marvel 3. There are benefits to doing it, but most of the time, you don't need to. What needs to be done in DOA 5 (if they're not taking holds out of stun out of the game) is to make it so that the game's metagame doesn't really require you to keep comboing into attacks that lead to Critical State. In other words, allow players to do damaging combos that don't require putting your opponent in Critical State, yet at the same time, put some reward for doing it so that it's not entirely useless.

 

[DR2K]

You give up damage and the potential kill with a TAC if you guess wrong you even take damage. When you can hold in stun you're basically free to constantly TAC. Imagine if all ground combos before launch hit were able to be TAC'd, then people would not be so accepting of the system.

 

[d3v]

That's mostly DOA 4 though, where just about every move put you in Critical State. I believe that it's been mentioned that in 5, fewer moves do this.

 

[Keylay]

There are a lot of Marvel players that don't like TAC. You should be able to get a combo on your opponent if you guess correctly and prevent the TAC but I believe that only works with X-factor. It would only work in DOA if the first critical stun was unholdable. Then you could decide to launch or re-stun them and put them in another critical stun that they could perform holds.

 

[DrDogg]

I don't see the relation. You can counter outside of stun and just about any time you're not in the air. You can counter more often than you can attack or block. You can't Counter Exchange in Marvel unless the offensive player gives you the chance to do it. I can play 100 games of Marvel against the best competition in the world, never using a TAC, and having that same odds of winning as someone who uses TAC regularly (possibly even higher odds). That can't be said about the counter system in DOA. It's not optional, it's a requirement to play the game.

 

[Rikuto]

As someone who doesn't play marvel I'd say the relation is that they get you out of things.


The difference is that one of these things is a situation of the offensive player's choosing, and the other is the incredible responsibility of using ones brain to play a competitive video game.

 

[DriftSlave]

I'd take the extra damage...fuck Phoenix getting a free bar, mash down ftw!!! well thats what i guess most of the time in vanilla...haven't played much of UMVC3 but i see the relation.

by going with Rikuto's past examples TAC and holds are kinda 50/50's again low and mid holds are the best bets like countering Left/Right or Down in TAC. sure up is viable but most of the time, people go for the meter or extra damage...

i maybe off the mark tho...

 

[Relius Starkiller]

D3v, you hit the nail on the head.

 

[RoboJoe]

stuff

Everyone's already said what I wanted to, but I'll say it anyway. Counter Exchange is not like holds because you never have to use TACs and therefore never have to see counter exchange nor can you use them in as many situations. In fact, I thought no one uses TACs because you can just mash directions and S and get lucky more often than not.

 

[OSTCarmine]

whether or not those things are the same is a debatable matter. the point of all this was to bag on hold-out-of-stun again. this issue may have been fixed now that crit stun is less prevalent, but i guess we shall see soon enough. i have not played the demo but saw the vids, and from what i could tell there was a lot more focus on pokes, smashes and short combos. people weren't even launching all that much. so far so good imo

 

[DR2K]

That's mostly DOA 4 though, where just about every move put you in Critical State. I believe that it's been mentioned that in 5, fewer moves do this.

It could probably just be freqency as well. If more moves launched without stun and there was less stun then holding in stun wouldn't be as big of a deal.

 

[d3v]

I don't see the relation. You can counter outside of stun and just about any time you're not in the air. You can counter more often than you can attack or block. You can't Counter Exchange in Marvel unless the offensive player gives you the chance to do it. I can play 100 games of Marvel against the best competition in the world, never using a TAC, and having that same odds of winning as someone who uses TAC regularly (possibly even higher odds). That can't be said about the counter system in DOA. It's not optional, it's a requirement to play the game.

The point was pointing out their similarities in an effort to demonstrate how TN could posdibly fix holds out of stun. Now if I remember correctly, you can only hold out of critical stun, not hitstun in general (unless you're saying that the greater FGC's "misconception" about the series, being that you can counter out of a combo anytime, is actually true). In other words, fix the system so that you don't have to put your opponent in critical state to do big damage.

 

[DrDogg]

The point was pointing out their similarities in an effort to demonstrate how TN could posdibly fix holds out of stun. Now if I remember correctly, you can only hold out of critical stun, not hitstun in general (unless you're saying that the greater FGC's "misconception" about the series, being that you can counter out of a combo anytime, is actually true). In other words, fix the system so that you don't have to put your opponent in critical state to do big damage.

"You can counter 90% of the time... every time."

 

[d3v]

"You can counter 90% of the time... every time."

The goal then would be to lower that number, maybe even reverse it.

 

[Rikuto]

-90% of the time?

Why stop there?

From now on, every time you counter, your character punches himself in the throat to achieve balance in the universe.

 

[Chris Harris]

Ok here is the thing with TAC vs Counters.

TAC has requirements that have to be met before using them. They don't even have to be used and only serve a small reasoning to even use.Not to mention it's at the attackers discretion to even gamble with that attack in the first place.

Counters have no requirement to use at any time. The only time you can't use a counter is when you are in the air or being thrown. Even if you have frame advantage against a blocking opponent they could still throw out a hold. It can be used out of stun, half way through a grounded combo, at the launcher, etc. They also deal a lot of damage as well for having no execution factored in.

The TAC while it takes no execution is the attackers fault for attempting such a gutsy guess that could throw the momentum out of their favor. They were in control but went for something that would net them a bonus but if it failed they get nothing and the defender gets out for guessing correctly and MINOR damage (almost unnoticeable).

 

[Rikuto]

Sounds like a better system to me.

Shimbori is a fan of game theory, I can't imagine he would be super opposed to something like that.

 

[d3v]

Ok here is the thing with TAC vs Counters.

TAC has requirements that have to be met before using them. They don't even have to be used and only serve a small reasoning to even use.Not to mention it's at the attackers discretion to even gamble with that attack in the first place.

Counters have no requirement to use at any time. The only time you can't use a counter is when you are in the air or being thrown. Even if you have frame advantage against a blocking opponent they could still throw out a hold. It can be used out of stun, half way through a grounded combo, at the launcher, etc. They also deal a lot of damage as well for having no execution factored in.

The TAC while it takes no execution is the attackers fault for attempting such a gutsy guess that could throw the momentum out of their favor. They were in control but went for something that would net them a bonus but if it failed they get nothing and the defender gets out for guessing correctly and MINOR damage (almost unnoticeable).

Wait, I thought you could only hold out of Critical State? Last I checked, it was only 4 that had almost every move put you in it.

And in any case, the argument here is to mirror what was done in Marvel 3 and limit the number of moves that put your opponent in Critical State so that you can realistically pull off combos without putting yourself in a situation where you can be held out of.

This isn't a defense of holds out of stun, but rather a suggestion on how to fix the situation without necessarily taking them out altogether.

 

[Chris Harris]

No you can hold at anytime you want in any DoA. There were "special" cases for them in other DoA's such as the wall or limbo stuns but before even getting to that point they had plenty of chances to hold before then. In stun or out of stun, getting hit or not getting hit. . . .you could hold.

They obviously want holds in the game as it's a big part of what makes DoA into DoA. My suggestion fits the bill perfectly I think. They would obviously have to change a few things to make it work fully but it's the best way for the game to be played.

With how I proposed it you can still counter but now it MEANS something when you throw it out there. That's the problem with the counter. You get SO many chances to get out of something and the attacker gets almost nothing for his hard troubles. With how I proposed you get all your opportunities it just comes with a price and you have to be careful with how you use your powerful tool.

The thing with DoA is until people can understand who has the upper hand in a match the game will stay in the same place it has always been and I honestly don't think it deserves that spot and could be a much better and bigger game.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Chris, d3v is right. You can't hold out of normal hit stun. Like Bass' 8P on normal hit in DOA2/3 it created a frame trap for his low throw. You had to wait for the hit stun frame disadvantage to pass before you could hold.