DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[XZero264]

The examples you gave aren't exactly convincing.

After reading what you say, right back at you.

Here's one.
"she can parry on Bass' backturning throw combos (parry while back turned)"
Leifang can parry Bass when BT, but Bass can also grab or OH her. And why would you use that grab out of the huge list of grabs in the first place, if you know she can do that? It's a 50/50 guess anyway. Bass gets more grab damage than Leifang gets for parry damage. No advantage for Leifang here.

BT T gives +21, 2T +10. If you get it you are looking at an easy 30%+ strike combo against anyone who doesn't have the tools to stop it. Why not go for it? Grabs can't do quite that without either a charge or going for his TFBB.

Explain to me why she doesn't need to break defenses. What exactly can she do to just chill? What are these godly moves that Leifang has that leaves bass at such a huge disadvantage? If Bass just stands there and blocks, waiting for an unshu or a chance to grab, Leifang can't do much. Her attacks are not gonna get her anywhere, unless the Bass player makes a mistake. She needs to use either grabs or OHs to get anything respectable by chipping away damage. With his neutral 4 frame grab, he can punish unshu every single time if he pays attention. She relies on counter hits to get anything going, and if the Bass player barely attacks, she's simply standing against a big rock. If you're trying to spam attacks with Bass you're doing it wrong. Just because the Bass player can't attack like he's playing with Christie, doesn't mean that it's a very bad matchup for him.

Something about Unshu on reaction doesn't seem to come to mind with you. You don't throw it out whilly-nilly, same as holds. Bass is slow enough on strikes that an Unshu on reaction is all it takes.

Bass needs to be careful while attacking, but Leifang needs to be very careful when using her best tools. It's not an advantage for him, but the advantage Leifang has is not as big as people say it is. I invite any good Leifang player to play any good Bass player, to see of you'd just chill.

Unfortunately a Bass always needs to be careful no matter what he does or who he fights. Throws, OHs, Pickups, GBs, it doesn't matter. Lei Fang isn't exactly in the same book.

Bolded.

So we are both going to debate why Lei Fang has the advantage?

 

[Nobus3r1]

Mr. Wah is probably the best Bass player around and he's stated that this MU is in favor of Bass.

Having played Mr. Wah (with pre-nerfed Rachel no less) I was able to see pretty much everything he's talking about regarding the matchup in action. It's not a fun matchup for Rachel to play and it certainly not even close to being even or in her favor.

 

[AkaShocka]

Christie: 5-5 (Christie is a speed queen, but Leifang has good defense options. Even matchup.)

I don't know how I feel about this one. Leifang is better at defense and Christie is better at offense, yea we all know this. But Leifang's Unshu is useless to use on Christie. The stance does have a moves that do hit on all levels with a grab on the side but Christie's jak evades everything that comes out of that stance even the throw. Christie can also try to space Leifang out because Christie does have good spacing moves. Speed we know this goes to Christie, mix ups goes to Christie (please correct me if I'm wrong), combo damage goes to Christie (her highest damage output is on lightweights, not counting Alpha). This imo is 6-4 Christie but I could be wrong. Just saying the little that you did doesn't really explain why this would be 5-5 imo.

EDIT: Leifang is better at holds and throws. Her low OH can help against the jak. Her holds, like her mid k hold, give her chances to get damage out. But that probably doesn't even the game out considering all the things Christie can do to mess Leifang's game up.

 

[Yaguar]

EDIT: Leifang is better at holds and throws. Her low OH can help against the jak.

The only thing on this would depend on how long is Christie in crouch minimum. So if stuff like her JAK or remain in crouching for enough frames from JAK start then does this tool (and more importantly all the grapplers) give her a true counter to JAK (if only whilst not pressing buttons). I may look at this in training tonight and see how many options it stops for hers and Tina's OH's (not sure if they are the same frames so I'll find that out first and for most).

 

[VirtuaKazama]

Give me a moment while I update the matchups for Leifang. Thanks for your opinions, guys.

 

[Koompbala]

Heres a write up vs Brad so it doesn't look like all I'm doing is knit picking in this thread. I actually already posted this in Tina's matchup thread but whatever.

My experience with 5U is limited character match up wise. When it comes to match ups I like to speak character to character not what a certain person can do with said character. So that being said Brad should technically always lose to Tina. A lot of his "safe" stuff is safe against majority of the cast not Tina. His running P unsafe against only 4 characters Tina is one of those 4. His BT 2P+K also -5 low grab that too. His 6H+K which use to be safe and needed to be held just to low grab it is now punishable by all. His 7KK can be interrupted by Tinas 6H+K. His BT H+K SO NEGATIVE YOU CAN SHINNING WIZARD IT. I would just go for a 6H+K hits every time and its faster and less room for error. His handstand KKKK/H+K that too is -5 yet another move Tina can punish that most others cannot. Bradley's they love to do Reverse handstand P+K into 2P+K. Don't let them get away with that. The P+K is -8 6T for a nice chunk of 68 health. Pretty much every string the man has is punishable unless it ends with a GB. His lay stance both positions everything is unsafe from them except for his head facing K handstand transition thats a frame trap. Tina is one of the characters with the best set of grabs in the game, so if he wants to finish a string forget about it.

If Tina is played right just brad being put up against Tina limits the amount of moves he can use. So really the only chance this man ever has of beating Tina is through string delays, not finishing strings, Handstand transitions, and P grabbing. Its definitely not gonna be his speed that helps him since they are both slow. This matchup easily goes to Tina

I do think Tina is maybe a bit faster. But Tina gets a lot of disadvantage all the time. Even after a GB she is still at disadvantage (her 2h+k).

Tina gets +1 off 2H+K its been like that since vanilla. Actually frame wise she hardly changed at all when it comes to block frames and speed of moves. If you do 2H+K at a distance you will be severely negative but that also means your using the move wrong. Tina does get a lot of advantage off moves, but they are so freakin slow its as if they dont exist at all. Then there are other moves that give her advantage only at a distance. +1 ain't shit normally but it comes a long way against other slow characters. Especially since 2H+K puts her in FC. The point of 2H+K is for it to get blocked. You actually don't wanna score a knockdown with it or use it at a distance.

If you compare 5U Tina to 4.1 Tina then yeah she's pretty damn unsafe. Tina was one of the safest characters in 4.1 but if you compare 5U Tina to other 5U characters its not that bad. She's still pretty safe and her disadvantage isn't much of a problem in a fight.

 

[NightAntilli]

Bolded.

So we are both going to debate why Lei Fang has the advantage?

We are debating how much advantage Leifang actually has against Bass, if at all. As a Leifang player, I know what she's capable of. Once she gets a stun in, it's often a party. Getting the stun is the issue. Despite her speed, putting pressure on blocking opponents is not one of her strengths, unlike DOA5. In 5 she had a bunch of moves that gave her frame advantage so she could pressure all day. 6F+K was +5 I think, now it's -3. 1P+K was +8 uncharged, now it's -3 uncharged. Both are mids. Now she has one miserable move for frame advantage, which is 7K. In DOA5U, she mainly attacks to bait something that she can defend. She needs to defend to break her opponent's guard most of the time. If the opponent is not attacking, she has a problem. Her 2F+K gives her nothing if the opponent slow escapes, plus it's unsafe. Her 33P and her 2K also give her nothing. If she misuses her safe high attacks, she can get crushed by anyone, if she tries to pressure with mids, she'll get punished for being so unsafe. She is not Kokoro or Hitomi, despite her having similar speeds.

But I explained what I needed to explain. If people disagree, it's their right to do so. I'd love to hear Mr.Wah's input on it though. Or any Bass player for that matter. Bass players are pretty rare. So are Leifang players it seems.

Basically, the whole 5-5 / 6-4 / 7-3 ratios themselves are also up for debate. There's a reason I tried using fractions. Sometimes there are some matchups that are both 6-4, even when the difference in advantage is bigger. If we say Christie vs Kokoro is 6-4 in favor of Christie, there's no way Leifang vs Bass is also 6-4, since that advantage is way smaller. But we'll see how the tier list goes along, and we can adjust the matchup ratings as things go forward.

 

[AkaShocka]

Ok. Whats better than some good ol' fashion Wrasslin'? Here is some Tina MU opinions:

Lisa: These 2 imo are equal in holds and throws. Tina does have bigger throw damage in some throws but Lisa has more OHs to make up for it. Mix ups however goes to Lisa. Lisa does crush more also. Lisa can really limit Tina's options when it comes to spacing. Lisa and Tina both have their fair share in unsafeness but are both one of the best punishers in the game. But Lisa also being one of the best spaces and Tina being one of the worst, Lisa can use that to her advantage. Tina can come in with Shining Wizard but it isn't the best choice since its not an OH. If it was an OH she would have a much better chance getting in. But, her shining wizard is good for punishing. Lisa has a lot of unpunishable-punishable moves. Moves like her 7k or 4h+k aren't easy to punish because of there pushback but Tina can run and and get her, I have even done this myself. This is imo 5-5 but it may lean slightly in Lisa's favor.

Christie: Christie pretty much beats Tina at everything. speed, mix ups, mind games, spacing. But Tina is better at holds and throws. Instead of going on about how shitty Tina may be in this MU, Im going to say her pluses. Tina's 1p of doom can limit Christie's jak. To avoid the unsafeness of 1p, she can also use her hold3P which is a decently fast mid punch that tracks. Christie is very unsafe. Christie has a lot of LFG (Lol free grab) moments that people let go unnoticed. If Tina literally punishes Christie every chance she gets, Christie will have no choice but to change her play style. But Tina sucks in spacing. She will have a very tough time getting in and Christie has good keepout and good spacing. Tina's best bet is to keep Christie close, punish, and don't let Christie get going because Christie can literally jab in between Tina's stuff. 6-4 Christie.

Momiji: Words by Yaguar -
"Momiji in general should be fairly easy for your run of the mill player.
All Tenku options can be Fuzzy Guarded on block.
Anything from Uzukaze bar is unsafe as balls.

She has good tracking and safety but be aware of a few of the main ones that are punishable and fall under "Lol Free Grab" or LFG for short:


(most likely to block of the two). On normal hit you can block the second hit.

Tina's will give the low spammers a lot of problems especially if they can't then adapt to it.
will get under her highs and she has a lot of good ones. Beware of her strings! She has a lot of options.

Momiji HATES rising punches. will cause her serious issue because of the hitbox of her and .

She only has short bursts vs. block. She's safe but she isn't a block pressure. She should love to be in mid range but this point of the fight I'd really call it a 5-5. Tina has enough tools at mid range to hold her own but watch for and as they are pretty staple. gives her a mid range tracking option coupled with which has some length. Sidestepping at a distance isn't really an option if they are on point.
But you can get under or over or just brute strength through her options. Her actual keep out vs. rushdown is pretty weak and you have some decent charges so abuse them.

If you can fight her at longer ranges as Tina you'll have a better match up. Mid is about even and close goes to Momiji for crush ability (even vs. Tina's of doom).

I'm leaning now on saying it may favour Momiji a bit more but I can't really think of a tool she shuts down, same for Tina vs. her that would warrant either being anything but a 5-5. It's just a different style for both of them."

 

[StrikerSashi]

I think people think Leifang is a lot more safe than she is. I'm so nervous when I have to play aggressive as Leifang 'cause I have to free cancel stuff that's -13 or so on block. When I'm at -8 I'm thinking, "Oh, good, they can't 10f throw me." Most of time when I open someone up, it's from nitakus off of 2H+K which becomes increasingly hard when the other guy learns to deal with it.

EDIT: Again, it's definitely in Leifang's favor, but not that much.

EDIT: And her OHs are good, but only when used reactively, which doesn't help when the problem is that she's usually at a big enough disadvantage that she can be thrown punished. I've had good players hear the really obvious sound of her OHs and actually react in time to throw it when I use it in neutral. A lot of what makes her so good is only effective when the opponent takes the advantage. Bass players who're used to standing there blocking shouldn't have to do much to adjust to her.

 

[Crext]

Just for notes people should notice how patch 1.04 will significantly change the current meta.

Everyone is welcome to make their predictions, where there also are some very loose characteristics described. "change hitbox, changed effects on stun" and so on which we must wait until we learn the extend of.

However, the ones that have caught my eyes the most is:

Ein: Overall buff to all his Throws and Holds I feel this works well into his current spacing game meta. Thus he'll climp the tier list.

Jann Lee: 6p from 12 to 11 frames without dmg reduction. This means he will beat out the likes of Christie in dmg, and everyone else in speed. In other words Jann Lee's close quarter combat has been significantly buffed, and I predict he'll climb the tier lists greatly as he'll get the best mid in the game.

Hitomi: Hitomi's unstoppable God's kick (her nr. 1 go to move in 236k) has been nerfed from -1 to -5 on block. Everyone who've played much Hitomi know that this might be the greatest nerf in man's memory (I'm putting it on pretty tight because of emotional tears of sorrow). Her other changes sounds like something which won't benefit her meta much, but as this seems like an approach to turn her into a spacer it might do it in the new meta. Either way the Hitomi we know will probably not be around anymore. Of course, I may be wrong, but my predictions all around is that she'd turn more into the current Ein, and thus drop down to the bottom of the tiers. Sigh, I guess it is her turn. She's been good for so long, so I guess it had to happen eventually.
(On the bright side, if this follows in Christie's footsteps she'd be tier S in DoA 6 (fingers crossed).)

Other than that it seems people will get some semi nerfs in that only grablers can punish certain moves. Also there might potentially be BIG nerfs/buffs in the "change effects and change hitbox" (Helena and Christie watch out!) and so on. All in all they seem to mix things up greatly. 1.04 will become a big fresh start.

 

[Koompbala]

But Lisa also being one of the best spaces and Tina being one of the worst, Lisa can use that to her advantage. Tina can come in with Shining Wizard but it isn't the best choice since its not an OH. If it was an OH she would have a much better chance getting in.

Tina is not that bad at spacing she got 66K and 46P. 66K still gives a decent stun and is semi safe. 46P is still a frame trap which now its easier to get more than just +1 out of it now. 6H+K is still good too that's how you know a move is good is when it gets nerfed and its still good. We Tinas now have to think of when to use it rather than just mindlessly throwing it out there. Her roll is now useful too. Actually its always been useful there was just never a reason to use it in vanilla now there is.

Lisa has a lot of unpunishable-punishable moves. Moves like her 7k or 4h+k aren't easy to punish because of there pushback but Tina can run and and get her, I have even done this myself. This is imo 5-5 but it may lean slightly in Lisa's favor.

Let it be known nothing goes unpunished by Tina. All 7K mixups get stopped by 6H+K and her 4H+K will get punished by 6H+K everytime without fail. Granted its only 48dmg but it will hit no matter what distance Lisa uses 4H+K on block. Punishable retreating attacks get punished by Tina easily. Brads BT H+K, Lisas 4H+K, Christies, Eliots, and Gen Fu's 7K, Pai's 7H+K and 6KP7K all get punished by Tina's 6H+K. As far as I know Lisa got nothing like this so Tina actually got somewhat of an edge that Lisa does not. I do agree its a 5-5 matchup still.

Tina's 1p of doom can limit Christie's jak. To avoid the unsafeness of 1p, she can also use her hold3P which is a decently fast mid punch that tracks.

FC 3P does not track and it never has it didnt in vanilla and it still doesn't. I dont know how I feel about Tina vs Christie. Cause Tina is better at punishing has a lot of tracking moves and is a safer character. Problem is its so easy to get overwhelmed by that speed so it seems like Christie got this no problem. I wouldn't necessarily count Tina out though.

 

[AkaShocka]

FC 3P does not track and it never has it didnt in vanilla and it still doesn't. I dont know how I feel about Tina vs Christie. Cause Tina is better at punishing has a lot of tracking moves and is a safer character. Problem is its so easy to get overwhelmed by that speed so it seems like Christie got this no problem. I wouldn't necessarily count Tina out though.

I thought it did track.. My apologies. Now how about 4P? That a good thing to use against the jak? I know it tracks. I would of said other moves like 1k and stuff but those are moves that are stupid to just throw out there.

 

[Koompbala]

I thought it did track.. My apologies. Now how about 4P? That a good thing to use against the jak? I know it tracks. I would of said other moves like 1k and stuff but those are moves that are stupid to just throw out there.

Yeah there are times where it seems like it does but it really doesn't. As for 4P its cool that it tracks but f that range its so short. Ive hit it before on jak but my Christie experience is limited due to not having unlimited internet. Also everything out of 2K tracks but its 17i which is pretty damn slow against Christie.

 

[XZero264]

Ein is still pretty much where he was. He just has better holds and throws now, his other issues haven't really changed at all. And a significantly better 4P+K (holy shit that charge time difference is amazing, I might actually use it now).

 

[Tenryuga]

Hitomi: Hitomi's unstoppable God's kick (her nr. 1 go to move in 236k) has been nerfed from -1 to -5 on block. Everyone who've played much Hitomi know that this might be the greatest nerf in man's memory (I'm putting it on pretty tight because of emotional tears of sorrow). Her other changes sounds like something which won't benefit her meta much, but as this seems like an approach to turn her into a spacer it might do it in the new meta. Either way the Hitomi we know will probably not be around anymore. Of course, I may be wrong, but my predictions all around is that she'd turn more into the current Ein, and thus drop down to the bottom of the tiers. Sigh, I guess it is her turn. She's been good for so long, so I guess it had to happen eventually.
(On the bright side, if this follows in Christie's footsteps she'd be tier S in DoA 6 (fingers crossed).)

Don't over-react. 236k was a good move but let's be honest it was easily duckable in it's string by experienced players so wouldn't be used much in matches against them anyway. Hitomi basically got very slight damage nerfs on her throws. This is not enough to ruin her position on the tier list because her offense is still strong, her stun game is still strong, her whiff punishment is still strong, and her defensive options are still solid. The damage nerfs don't change her MU's at all and she can still be played pretty much the same way because that was the only offensive tool she lost.

 

[Crext]

Don't over-react. 236k was a good move but let's be honest it was easily duckable in it's string by experienced players so wouldn't be used much in matches against them anyway. Hitomi basically got very slight damage nerfs on her throws. This is not enough to ruin her position on the tier list because her offense is still strong, her stun game is still strong, her whiff punishment is still strong, and her defensive options are still solid. The damage nerfs don't change her MU's at all and she can still be played pretty much the same way because that was the only offensive tool she lost.

I would disagree. Her 236k as a standalone could perhaps be ducked upon reaction, but in the different strings (there are 6 different strings which has this as the finisher) you usually have to take a pick between this and other options. Like the most common one in 66kkk or 66kkp (mid launcher) or 66kk6t or free cancel into something else. This means that if you have people that keep ducking as a guess/read you'd get launch damage every time, or a deep stun from the free cancel. This is where you force reaction, not pattern reading, as you'd statistically win the trade in dmg vs risk. Therefor, by making it reaction you'd make it a different game.

To just underline my point in reaction time, which ultimately is what the usefulness of this move will come down to. The reaction time of humans is 20~30F, but this drops down to 12~14F if you know exactly what you are looking for. However trained reaction time is at 16~17 frames if you have few options to consider (2 or 3). This means that in theory the pro gamers would be able to duck down during the last frame (the kick is 18 frames). However this would be the only option you could react to unless you to know exactly when for this to apply in "none stressful environment". The free cancels into something new would rarely be able to be reacted upon (because of the potential of delays (they'll have to guess/read it)). They then first need to spot and confirm a free cancel, and then react upon the follow up move (which could be anything). In other words 99% of people would usually block any follow up unless they expect or guess/read such an action, thus if you throw in let's say 66pk after a free cancel their reaction time on the second string would probably be 20~30 or well outside the 18 frames it takes to perform the kick, because you'd mess with their brain to believe and consider so many different options that they are unable to react fast enough.

This is usually how you see things go on pro play as well. Often people even fail to throw punish and what not because the opponent keeps messing with their head and forcing the 20~30 reaction time which opens up for so many more possibilities. This is just one example of an "unexpected 236k", however the clue is the same logic applies after the kick as well, which is exactly what makes it so dangerous. 236k as a standalone and follow up is less useful because it is not in the confuse blender like the others, even if they block the first 236k they won't be on their heels enough for the follow-up to be as effective. If you confuse the other person enough their brain will start dis-functioning because they will start lacking pattern recognition, and you will force them to either guess or take a throw/low hit and poke your way through their defenses slowly, at which point they will open up with low holds or something equally risky for big punishment. When they do, if you have big enough diversity in your move sets, the odds will always be 2/3 or better for you to get your way, and that would be either high counter- or count hit.

In short, Hitomi is already playing really close to what the human brain is able to adapt to. I think that if you take this away you will weaken everything she has, as this power move until now would always demand attention because it ultimately could mark everlasting onslaught if you are forced on your heels. If they see it they now can react much faster as they don't need to think about the response, making it a 12~14F reaction time move on block, like most other string enders. Thus they can now throw anything out there (basically making it a complete turnaround in offense, as they can build anything they wish to build). By doing this you'll force Hitomi to almost never end her strings, and free cancel a lot more, basically making her overall game worse as the reads having to be done by the opponent becomes fewer. If her pressure game overall becomes worse, the likeliness of achieving 20~30 frame reaction time on the opponent becomes less, thus everything she does may becomes less effective.

Wow, this turned out to be a great wall of text. My apologizes!
I will admit that I may be putting to much into it though, and we'll just have to see how things turn out I guess.

 

[SweetRevenge117]

Can someone please tell me how genfu is b tier?

 

[Malfury]

Can someone please tell me how genfu is b tier?

No one knows enough about him or no one knows his MUs that well I assume. I keep hearing Gen Fu is one of the best characters in the game myself, but I don't know why.

 

[Tenryuga]

When his MU list is complete he will be at the top of the list. You guys can't barge in here like" why is character X at X spot" then not provide any match-up numbers whether people know what's true or not.

 

[SweetRevenge117]

I didnt say why I asked how tenruga. What logic has been found in this 10 page thread that puts genfu in b tier?