DOA5 E3 Build: The Good, Bad and Ugly

[Berzerk!]

It's partly that, but there's also the fact that, despite Sabin (Arturo Sanchez's) best efforts, MLG folks don't seem to respect FGs, or at least the community much, which resulted in some terrible streams as well as some questionable rules (e.g. winning the winners final not giving you a twice to beat advantage).

That's quite interesting, hopefully just a teething problems thing with MLG being new to incorporating fighters into their current model. They would have limited resources for it with sc2 being such a focus, but it's good they have a core fighting game person involved and is expect it to improve.
Also good points earlier on the rewards of good offense and neutral game - I would argue delayed strings and free cancelling or guard cancelling as it is called in vf5fs, are important tools to help open up a blocking opponent and touches on the safety of strings.
Lets be clear. It's not that COMBOS are unsafe in Doa it's blocked strings. If a guy blocks your whole string and you're dumb enough to play through to an unsafe string ender you deserve to be punished.
And it DOES work the same way in VF, look at la Akiras segment on Ultrachen and the concept of "taking turns"

 

[Rikuto]

We agree that "guessing happens" during certain intervals of any fighting game, and I think we would agree that if a person wishes to minimize their guessing they should be allowed to play in that playstyle as much as possible, right?

In VF you can throw out a normal string and I'll block it, and based on whether I am plus or minus I can make an intelligent decision on how to react next.

So tell me... in DOA if I can never tell when your string has or has not ended, how can I do anything other than guess illogically during every single exchange?

This is me, a very high level player, asking the lower level players for their advice in beating that barrier consistently. Because I can't do it, and as far as I can tell nobody else can either based on how I'm doing all of my damage to people throughout the years.

Delays on every string are just unreasonable for "intelligent" guessing games.

What I consider a reasonable guessing game is if I do a non-delayable string that puts me at +3 and I am a slower character.

This means on the next attack, if I am fighting a faster character they can guess whether or not I will do a slow attack and still manage to beat me out despite the frame advantage. That is a risk they can choose to take, and the odds are definitely against them if they do. It puts me at a true advantage, and unless they have been scouting for what I am likely to do next I am likely to just beat them out every time.

If they don't want to take that risk though, they could do a quick fuzzy guard to avoid potential throws and come up guarding against any attacks that would stun them. If I had planned on doing a big, super unsafe attack, they can now defend against it correctly (and logically) and punish me for it. If it's not unsafe, they can start their own form of offense. This is how a logical fighting game would work... by making truly educated guesses and being able to manage your options.

With DOA I just can't approach that meta-game, because I can never tell when any string in the game has ended.

 

[d3v]

Guessing should only happen during the neutral game. Having to guess as a reward for getting in/good offense is plain dumb.

 

[AKNova7]

Because fighting games are more than just what happens when someone gets hit confirmed. The neutral game is just as, or even more important. Footsies, spacing, blockstrings, offense, etc. are the actual meat of any fighting games. The problem is that scrubs don't know jack shit about playing the neutral game and good defense, which is why they get hit. DOA4 just exacerbated the issue since it allowed players to be reckless in their offense. If Bayman or Sarah get in on you in DOA5 and do a guaranteed combo, then it's your fault for not having a good neutral game. Same applies to any fighting game (if someone ToDs my Morri/Doom in UMvC3, it's because they were good enough to get past the sheer bullet hell I put them through). The key is in something that Capcom's Seth Killian mentioned sometime last year; players like it when good offense is rewarded with more offense.

I agree with your emphasis of neutral game, yes. I personally believe all of these defensive measures should be very important in any fighting game. As a defensive play advocate, personally, I know this for certain. But just because something can be avoided by neutral game, doesn't mean it can be equally avoided with everyone by neutral game. As far as I'm concerned, there shouldn't be a character that plays outside the system. But, all in all, in past iterations, not so much DOA5, I've found that some of the mechanics in the game weren't exactly fundamentally up to par. But, even if they do get in and do a combo, the fact that if it was another character and their combo wouldn't be guaranteed means that those two characters have to be balanced accordingly.

Just because something is avoidable or difficult, doesn't mean it being really strong vs everyone else is excusable. That's my only gripe with what you said. When you rely on a way out of something or difficulty to balance any game, what you end up with is 50% throws, moves that track in all directions and backdash being safe on block, and many other things that certain fighting games do that I won't mention the name of. I don't think DOA is at all like this, and I don't want it to be. But, personally, I think DOA has taken many steps in the right direction. But, at the same time, the game in my mind shouldn't strive to be like every other fighting game. DOA has it's own voice, and if what it's goal is to be like every other fighting game, the things that make it unique would simply disappear. However, even as a defensive fighting gamer, I highly disagreed with the counter hold damage in DOA4. If your defense is your best offense, something is probably wrong.

Guessing should only happen during the neutral game. Having to guess as a reward for getting in/good offense is plain dumb.

Wouldn't that mean counter holds are dumb in general?

 

[Rikuto]

In general, yes. Yes they are.

That's why a lot of us want them trimmed down in terms of their active frames... that would mean they still serve the purpose of reacting and catching slower attacks, as well as "calling out" someone when they are going to use something for the fifth time in a row when they have turned their brain off. But you can't really guess your way to victory most of the time with a trimmed down active window.

Harder to time means riskier to use unless you really really think its going to catch an attack at that exact moment.

So if you're following me, I do like the idea of the counter-hold as a utility for ending abuse in an intelligent manner. I don't like it as the "shit, i dont know what to do, something get countered fffffffffffuuuuuu" way it's currently used.

 

[AKNova7]

In general, yes. Yes they are.

That's why a lot of us want them trimmed down in terms of their active frames... that would mean they still serve the purpose of reacting and catching slower attacks, as well as "calling out" someone when they are going to use something for the fifth time in a row when they have turned their brain off. But you can't really guess your way to victory most of the time with a trimmed down active window.

Harder to time means riskier to use unless you really really think its going to catch an attack at that exact moment.

Oh, I want counter to not be blatantly spammable too, but the problem is has to be rebalanced completely to accommodate accurate counters, because it was made for imprecise counters. I think Dead or Alive could be remade to accommodate accurate counters completely, though it works pretty well with them right now, but I do think with the way the game is currently balanced, if they threw counters out of stun windows completely counters would be overnerfed, sort of like they were overbuffed in DOA4. I don't have a problem if they redesign the game, but, personally, I think if they take and make counters as weak as people on the site want them, they need to rework their stun mechanic as well to still give them a purpose.

Four Point Counter System + Little Counter Damage + Requiring Execution Accuracy + Longer Recovery is what's currently in the counter system right now. These all seem like pretty solid things, but offense needs to get balanced too in this effect. DOA wasn't meant to be a guaranteed combo game, in my opinion, and that's alright with me, that's what makes it unique. But, the offense still does good damage in the game, and there's no reason to make it stronger. 3 combos to kill someone in most situations is just fine, in my opinion. For both sides. DOA5 has made leaps and bounds, I think now we should let it just be DOA. They already trimmed the counter window a lot.

However, I do think maybe they should do something about the delayed strings. Now, that, sounds like an annoying problem.

 

[d3v]

...50% throws, moves that track in all directions and backdash being safe on block...

Other than safe backdashes, there is nothing wrong with all the other things listed there. In fact, IMO throws have been too weak in the current crop of fighting games (except maybe Skullgirls).

 

[AKNova7]

Other than safe backdashes, there is nothing wrong with all the other things listed there. In fact, IMO throws have been too weak in the current crop of fighting games (except maybe Skullgirls).

I'm sorry, you want 50% throws in 3D fighting games that aren't tag games? That's dumb when one character has one and the other characters throws are ass compared to it. 1/3 a life bar is plenty. And, actually, the part about moves that track in all directions and backstep and safe on block was actually all one thing. As in a move that tracks in all directions, backsteps, and is ALSO safe on block.

 

[d3v]

If a character is designed with their gameplan revolving around getting in to get that one throw (and the execution requirement is high enough), then it's fine.

 

[AKNova7]

If a character is designed with their gameplan revolving around getting in to get that one throw, then it's fine.

I'm going to agree to disagree with you here. There's many elements that go into this, sure, but not every game is designed with the same damage output in mind, IMO. Personally, I think it just depends on the majority of the other characters in the game.

 

[d3v]

You do realize that most traditional grapplers from the golden age of fighting games (2D and 3D) could put out that much damage from a command throw, right? It's only in todays scrub friendly environment do we see damage values in general nerfed.

 

[AKNova7]

So if you're following me, I do like the idea of the counter-hold as a utility for ending abuse in an intelligent manner. I don't like it as the "shit, i dont know what to do, something get countered fffffffffffuuuuuu" way it's currently used.

One last thing. Personally, I understand where you're coming from, but myself, I used it as an obstacle. For instance, if I didn't know where the opponent was going to go, I would throw out a counter as an obstacle to prevent from getting launched, for example. Not to spam, but to limit the opponent's options and force them to think outside of the box.

I believe in making counters more accurate as well, though, don't get me wrong. I think the windows were far too large in DOA4, but making them just usable against stale offense means they're not significant at all against good players. Which, personally, is taking away what makes DOA, DOA, because at high level, it's most unique and trademark mechanic, is almost worthless.

You do realize that most traditional grapplers from the golden age of fighting games (2D and 3D) could put out that much damage from a command throw, right? It's only in todays scrub friendly environment do we see damage values in general nerfed.

Fighting games in general did more damage back then, yes, I know that. Once upon a time, even SoulCalibur was a 7 or so hits without even comboing to kill game. However, just because there's less throw damage doesn't make it scrubby, it's just catered to be fun as well. Certain people these days don't want extremely powerful strategies to be abused, that's all. Moves that are that powerful I'd imagine certainly would create quite a spread of a tier list, I'd imagine, when high level players got to them. (Pardon me, I'm not completely sure on that, but only because I've played fighting games since about 2002, so I slightly missed the golden age. Though I went back and played some older games to, "educate myself.")

 

[d3v]

One last thing. Personally, I understand where you're coming from, but myself, I used it as an obstacle. For instance, if I didn't know where the opponent was going to go, I would throw out a counter as an obstacle to prevent from getting launched, for example. Not to spam, but to limit the opponent's options and force them to think outside of the box.

I believe in making counters more accurate as well, though, don't get me wrong. I think the windows were far too large in DOA4, but making them just usable against stale offense means they're not significant at all against good players. Which, personally, is taking away what makes DOA, DOA, because at high level, it's most unique and trademark mechanic, is almost worthless.

That "trademark mechanic" is also what makes DOA a terrible game at a competitive level. This is akin to saying that life threatening snap oversteer is a trademark of a Porsche 911 or terrible handling is a Corvette's (it's not, which is why modern 911's don't kill people in the corner and new Corvette's handle like European supercars). Nobody wants to have to keep guessing even when they make the right move and land a hit. It is effectively punishing good offense and on a meta level, discourages people from offense.

 

[Rikuto]

Exactly. It makes the game unique, not good.

There is no reason to defend a bad mechanic that drives everyone away from the game. Sure, a few people might try to defend it and claim it's unique, but they aren't the ones going out to actually play the game and having to sit in the corner for their 10 man tourney. Apart from hating the mechanic itself, I'm tired of seeing that happen.

There are more than enough other things making DOA unique that it doesn't have to cling to a fundamentally broken mechanic to stand out.

 

[AKNova7]

That "trademark mechanic" is also what makes DOA a terrible game at a competitive level. This is akin to saying that life threatening snap oversteer is a trademark of a Porsche 911 or terrible handling is a Corvette's (it's not, which is why modern 911's don't kill people in the corner and new Corvette's handle like European supercars). Nobody wants to have to keep guessing even when they make the right move and land a hit. It is effectively punishing good offense and on a meta level, discourages people from offense.

I meant in blockstrings, before you land a hit. I could understand why people don't like when you counter out of stuns. But, in reality, it doesn't discourage offense, limits the reward you get from said offense. DOA5 doesn't look to be a bad game on a competitive level, but, again, if you want to not be able to counter out of stuns, the system probably needs to be rebalanced altogether. Current mechanics minus countering in stuns, adding power blows and critical burst means DOA would definitely become high damage. Why does every fighting game to you have to be high damage or it's not competitive?

 

[Rikuto]

I meant in blockstrings, before you land a hit. I could understand why people don't like when you counter out of stuns. But, in reality, it doesn't discourage offense, limits the reward you get from said offense. DOA5 doesn't look to be a bad game on a competitive level, but, again, if you want to not be able to counter out of stuns, the system probably needs to be rebalanced altogether. Current mechanics minus countering in stuns, adding power blows and critical burst means DOA would definitely become high damage. Why does every fighting game to you have to be high damage or it's not competitive?

Think about what you are saying for a moment and you'll understand pretty well.

If there is no high damage option to fish for, why would you choose any option over the other? What relevance would environment have?

Every option becomes equally mediocre, and you therefore don't put any thought into your action. Shit becomes random. I recommend studying up on "game theory" for a better understanding of why this is important.

 

[AKNova7]

Exactly. It makes the game unique, not good.

There is no reason to defend a bad mechanic that drives everyone away from the game. Sure, a few people might try to defend it and claim it's unique, but they aren't the ones going out to actually play the game and having to sit in the corner for their 10 man tourney. Apart from hating the mechanic itself, I'm tired of seeing that happen.

There are more than enough other things making DOA unique that it doesn't have to cling to a fundamentally broken mechanic to stand out.

If you're talking about countering in stuns, that's fair. If you're talking about countering in general, that's unfair. In that respect, moves that crush at any level are just as overpowered, except if you mis-time them, and get blocked, you're not getting thrown for it. SoulCalibur V for instance is a game about proactive defense, manipulating the strings of your opponents to take away their options. How is that any different from counters, even with a trimmed active window? If counters are looked down upon, even with a trimmed active window, crushes, impacts, just guards, and everything else should be looked down upon as well.

 

[Rikuto]

If you're talking about countering in stuns, that's fair. If you're talking about countering in general, that's unfair. In that respect, moves that crush at any level are just as overpowered, except if you mis-time them, and get blocked, you're not getting thrown for it. SoulCalibur V for instance is a game about proactive defense, manipulating the strings of your opponents to take away their options. How is that any different from counters, even with a trimmed active window? If counters are looked down upon, even with a trimmed active window, crushes, impacts, just guards, and everything else should be looked down upon as well.

Countering in general I have no major problem with outside of a few characters still getting too much damage from it (Bayman, Hayabusa), and once again the active windows just being too large in general.

They are massive windows compared to how counters work in any other 3d fighter.

 

[AKNova7]

Think about what you are saying for a moment and you'll understand pretty well.

If there is no high damage option to fish for, why would you choose any option over the other? What relevance would environment have?

Every option becomes equally mediocre, and you therefore don't put any thought into your action. Shit becomes random. I recommend studying up on "game theory" for a better understanding of why this is important.

Because it's the option that would WORK. Damage in a video game is relative to every one else in said video game. So, if there was a combo in a video game that could do a third of a life bar worth of damage, even though in the "Golden Age" of video games as the other person said, that'd be low, in THAT specific game it'd be high. See, the thing is, it's not about how good the option is, it's about how good the option is for that given game. If you do a third of a health bar worth of damage, and that's the best in the game, it's not random, or mediocre, for that game, it's top of the line, and that's just fine, because it's still maximizing the damage potential you were given.

You don't need high damage. If it's high for the game that you're playing, that's fine. Do you disagree?

Not every game has to have 50% combos as it's main form of dealing damage. Most of them already do.

 

[Rikuto]

So I should only choose rock because I think my opponent will pick scissors based on absolutely no logical decision making?

How would I arrive at that decision, since his options will all be chosen at random? High level play with equal options results in forcibly random play, remember. We've seen and experienced this already.

Furthermore, if rushing my opponent through the stun threshold, and launching him, and putting him into an explosive wall for a re-launch, and juggling him after the re-launch... all results in only 1/3rd of a lifebar worth of damage....


Do you have any idea how long it would take to finish even a single round? And I have to win three of these things.

If the difference between a good juggle and a bad one was 1/3rd or 1/4th, I honestly would never fear any particular option or put any thought into my actions, because the game would pretty much just randomly select a winner. There would be nothing to fear and no thought process to force a decision on either my part or my opponents.