Should Team Ninja be forced to only use arcade sticks for future DOA development?

[Gill Hustle]

Good I have your attention. Here's why I ask:

Now many of you are familiar with a fighting game by the name of Street Fighter 4, yes?

Well I remember during it's development at Capcom Japan, there was footage of the designers using arcade sticks when they were testing out things. Why is this relevant? Well my guess is during that time since SF4 was first being brought to the arcade, they had to make sure all of the moves transferred over to an arcade cabinet. Hence everything had to feel "right".

Now moving forward let's look at the follow up game Super Street Fighter 4. A game that unlike the previous title was developed for console only (which later came to arcades).

Now I can't honestly say for sure that the devs used arcade sticks for Super, but let me use one character from there to further my point. My avatar Juri.

Those of you that are familiar with her play style know that she requires holding buttons to store her fireballs. So a technique of holding all 3 buttons on a default 360 pad and at the same time making her a viable threat seem like a nightmare to a stick player like myself. I'm saying it can't be done, but setting up a lot of her tactics can't be easy imo.

Another note to my theory is Dictators U2 move was changed from QCFx2 to a charge motion in the later "Arcade" version of Super .

So what does this have to do with DOA?

Well for one, those of us lucky to play DOA1 and DOA2 as arcade games were a little annoyed at the changes to the game after DOA2 came home to console and onward. Most notably the counter system and also I noticed while playing DOA++, you have to hit :F+P+k: to escape multi throws. As opposed to just .

This was most likely due to the fact that TN was using pads for the console versions of DOA2 and up as opposed to arcade sticks, seeing as how a person had to be "Hardcore" to own one.

So I guess what I'm getting at is if the devs use Sticks with DOA's original set up set up (No button macros!) on an arcade stick, the game could get more of it's old skool feel back.

I'd like to say more, but I don't want eyes glazing over so I'll wait for responses.

 

[Allan Paris]

FUCK NO, leave this game on pad. Microsoft has done fairly well with their new expensive as shit controller I can work it just fine with this game and others. I have also heard many other people say that the new controller is ok and has a nice feel. Leave DOA1 and 2 where they are at as far as a controller goes.

Now, if a player wants to play on a stick that's their vice and they should go right ahead, but don't convert the game back to an arcade stick. I can't stand arcade sticks and that's part of the reason why I say don't bring it back to DOA. But, at the same time I feel that DOA is fine on pad. Companies just need to fix their controller's which Microsoft has done so far.

Give us an old school feel by bringing us back GOOD OLD FASHION SOLID GAMEPLAY! The controller isn't the problem or anything to look into, in my eyes.

 

[Raansu]

Depends on the game I think. Usually I prefer a stick, but personally I can't play DoA on a stick.

 

[Rikuto]

If DOA required stick to play, I wouldn't play DOA.

Me and stick are simply incompatible.

 

[Gill Hustle]

If DOA required stick to play, I wouldn't play DOA.

Me and stick are simply incompatible.

Guys I'm not saying requiring a stick to play, I'm saying having a stick players mind when deciding what inputs to use.

I mean like those of you who use pads, do you use them for other fighters? MK, Street Fighter, Tekken ?

Both current Street Fighter and Tekken were arcade titles before they hit console. So it's a safe bet arcade sticks were used for it and to my knowledge, people who play those games on pads only complaints are which pad to use.

I'm guessing MK9 went the same route since they had of Vets testing it probably on the MK stick but It's just as good on pad.

But regarding DOA, I remember talking to someone about not being able to do Hayates' Raijin on stick. He told me that a lot of people preformed it by using both analogs . . . something just didn't seem right about that so that's why I started thinking about this.

Another thing felt on DOA4 that was difficult on stick were moves with in them.

But in the other games I mentioned, I have no problem with that input.

 

[Rikuto]

I use both analogs as well when performing Raijin.

And why not?

Going from D-pad for the initial throw, to one analog, to another, and STILL having incredibly strict timing and accuracy being a requirement here. . . this is a throw that takes a lot of practice to perform even on a controller.

Now it is often said to me that by not using stick, i am limiting myself in games like MVC3, SSF4, etc. As if I will never hit the roof of my ability.

I told you already, I use pad. I played DOA primarily because it IS pad friendly.

Anything in the development process that was done to the contrary could only serve to piss me off.

 

[grap3fruitman]

You know what? I think would like that. I've spent the last twelve years playing DOA on a pad but I definitely noticed some changes that likely came across with the focus shifting to pads in the DOA series.

I can't say anything about going from DOA 1 and ++ to 2 but when Team Ninja brought DOA2 on the Dreamcast had replaced the four point double-direction holds with the three point single direction ones. Granted, they left the double-direction holds in as an option but they still felt the need to dumb down the game this way. Was it like this in the PS2 versions as well? I didn't have the pleasure of owning a PS2 or the DOA2 iterations on there.

DOA3 took it further by dumbing down a lot more moves' inputs for the Xbox pad and loosening up how the d-pad needed to be held which resulted in a lot of accidental holds coming out. Moves like Jann Lee's in DOA2 were changed to in DOA3 and forward future games. DOA2U kept the old inputs, which was nice, but the simplified inputs reappeared in 4 and Dimensions.

I'm trying to learn to play stick so I bought a Madcatz Chun Li TE recently and a few weeks ago I played some casuals in DOA4 with Kobayashi and you know what I noticed? How incredibly easy it is to slow escape on a stick. I was shocked at fast I was SEing to the point that I asked myself "This is what's considered an 'advanced' tactic in DOA? No wonder DOA goes so much slack for a lack of depth in the fighting game community."

I would definitely like for Team Ninja to develop DOA5 with arcade sticks as the main input in mind. Obviously, controllers would still be an option and many of the people here just misunderstood your post.

I'm still having difficulty learning the stick, I just put in an octo-plate this week but I haven't had a chance to play with the modded stick yet.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Anything in the development process that was done to the contrary could only serve to piss me off.

Did you have any issue with the inputs on moves in DOA2U? No? That's more what Gill Hustle is referring to.

 

[Gill Hustle]

You know what? I think would like that. I've spent the last twelve years playing DOA on a pad but I definitely noticed some changes that likely came across with the focus shifting to pads in the DOA series.

I can't say anything about going from DOA 1 and ++ to 2 but when Team Ninja brought DOA2 on the Dreamcast had replaced the four point double-direction holds with the three point single direction ones. Granted, they left the double-direction holds in as an option but they still felt the need to dumb down the game this way. Was it like this in the PS2 versions as well? I didn't have the pleasure of owning a PS2 or the DOA2 iterations on there.

DOA3 took it further by dumbing down a lot more moves' inputs for the Xbox pad and loosening up how the d-pad needed to be held which resulted in a lot of accidental holds coming out. Moves like Jann Lee's in DOA2 were changed to in DOA3 and forward future games. DOA2U kept the old inputs, which was nice, but the simplified inputs reappeared in 4 and Dimensions.

I'm trying to learn to play stick so I bought a Madcatz Chun Li TE recently and a few weeks ago I played some casuals in DOA4 with Kobayashi and you know what I noticed? How incredibly easy it is to slow escape on a stick. I was shocked at fast I was SEing to the point that I asked myself "This is what's considered an 'advanced' tactic in DOA? No wonder DOA goes so much slack for a lack of depth in the fighting game community."

I would definitely like for Team Ninja to develop DOA5 with arcade sticks as the main input in mind. Obviously, controllers would still be an option and many of the people here just misunderstood your post.

I'm still having difficulty learning the stick, I just put in an octo-plate this week but I haven't had a chance to play with the modded stick yet.

Yeah that's some of what I'm saying and also how making moves "pad" friendly might have changed how they moved forward with DOA.

Let me use another Street Fighter reference.

Both Street Fighter Zero/Alpha 2 and the Street Fighter 3 series were released near the " Fall Of The Arcade."

The BEST home port of Alpha 2 you could get was on Sega Saturn. Street Fighter 3 would never make home release until the Dreamcast hit. (the system strong enough to handle it. Alpha/Zero 3 was released on Saturn but required a RAM cart to run it properly.

Another fun fact of evidence:

The DC controller only had six action buttons. SF3 players couldn't use "select" to taunt.

But back to Alpha 2 and 3 for comparisons.

To "Alpha Counter" in Zero 2 the input was FROM 1st player side during block or depending if you wanted a HIGH or LOW counter attack (:high, : low) and would cost one stock of a 3 meter bar.

To safe fall/tech roll, you did the or motion just as you hit the floor and the button pressed decided where you landed.

In Zero 3 "Counter Hit Juggle State was added, but to recover from these while airborne all you had to do was hit 2 's

Tech rolling was done by hitting 2 's when you landed. And Zero Counters were done by holding Block and hitting both medium and . The cost, HALF of a full 3 bar Super meter.

These are some of the reasons I feel Alpha/zero 2 is a superior game.

Another thing I get from " Old Skool" players is that fighters are getting "too simple" with examples like Button Macros, Shortcut inputs, and ** Touch Screens!

I guess part me is saying too, that when stuff gets "too easy" it's not as fun.

Like when I played DOA++ I was looking for some familiar moves, only to find they have a few extra inputs I long forgot about using. But somehow when I kept playing it felt "right".

 

[Gill Hustle]

Did you have any issue with the inputs on moves in DOA2U? No? That's more what Gill Hustle is referring to.

On that as well.

Grap3, have you tried playing DOAU2 (stick) then going back to DOA4?

 

[grap3fruitman]

I haven't unfortunately. The TE doesn't work on the original Xbox. I did get a chance to play DOA2 in an arcade setting a few years back casually at the Six Flags outside Chicago but I couldn't wrap my head around the stick then and wasn't able to appreciate it.

 

[Gill Hustle]

I haven't unfortunately. The TE doesn't work on the original Xbox. I did get a chance to play DOA2 in an arcade setting a few years back casually at the Six Flags outside Chicago but I couldn't wrap my head around the stick then and wasn't able to appreciate it.

DOAU2 is B/C on 360.

 

[grap3fruitman]

BC sucks on 360 though.

 

[Gill Hustle]

I see.

Well if anything, I think you should at least see what it feels like doing "older inputs" .

 

[Rikuto]

Did you have any issue with the inputs on moves in DOA2U? No? That's more what Gill Hustle is referring to.

So whats your point?

You want everyone on the dev team to start using stick because somebody somewhere is having trouble with raijin?

The inputs, if anything, got easier. I'm not saying they should stay that way, but they are hardly impossible on stick.

 

[grap3fruitman]

ITT, Rikuto misses the point.

 

[Rikuto]

No, I'm not missing the point.

You want them to use Sticks in development so everything is more stick friendly, and by your own naive assertion, pad friendly as well.

Here's a hint from every other fighting game on the market.

That's a bullshit assessment.

 

[Raansu]

There really is no balance. It's either one way or the other, and DoA imo just feels better on a pad. Ive tried it on a stick, and the game is just awkward on a stick. Then turn around and play Tekken, and I can't be anywhere near a pad playing that game. It's just how games are designed.

 

[grap3fruitman]

You want them to use Sticks in development so everything is more stick friendly, and by your own naive assertion, pad friendly as well.

How is giving moves their old inputs making the game "stick friendly?" Were DOA2 or 2U unplayable without a stick?

Every single part of DOA seems to get dumbed down with newer iterations. Why are you so opposed to making the inputs a tiny-bit more difficult than they were in 3, 4 and Dimensions?

No, I'm not missing the point.

Yeah, you are.

What do you think of when you hear the term "arcade sticks" in the fighting game community? Hardcore, competitive players. The point is to make the devs feel this way too during the development of the game. So they have a competitive mentality through-out the entirety of the game.

I don't see why you seem to think that using sticks in development would hinder the game at all. No one's going to force you to use a stick.

 

[Allan Paris]

So, an arcade stick means you are a "Hardcore, competitive player"? I know that the mass majority feels that it is a high level toy for players, but, I didn't know it defined them as well. Looks like I best hurry up and get one. DOA is fine on pad they can make inputs harder and still keep it on pad, this is my first time ever hearing that anyone would perfer playing DOA on an arcade stick. I know some players play on them but I didn't know it was part of the reason DOA is suffering.

I understand and get the point clearly, but again, the controlls is not and shouldn't even be a priority for bettering the Dead or Alive series. Harder inputs ok, I can dig that, fine, but switching over to an aracde stick to give a pseudo feel of superiority, naahhh.