Should Team Ninja be forced to only use arcade sticks for future DOA development?

[grap3fruitman]

So, an arcade stick means you are a "Hardcore, competitive player"?

Not necessarily but that's the general first impression. PL's a great pad player and he plays games that are generally dominated by stick players.

I know that the mass majority feels that it is a high level toy for players, but, I didn't know it defined them as well.

Reading SRK I don't get that impression.

DOA is fine on pad they can make inputs harder and still keep it on pad

No one is taking the pad away. You missed the point, much like Rikuto did.

this is my first time ever hearing that anyone would perfer playing DOA on an arcade stick.

Who said that?

I understand and get the point clearly, but again, the controlls is not and shouldn't even be a priority for bettering the Dead or Alive series. Harder inputs ok, I can dig that, fine, but switching over to an aracde stick to give a pseudo feel of superiority, naahhh.

No one's forcing people to play on a stick. The point is to give the devs the impression, "Oh shit, we're on sticks now? Time to get serious."

 

[Gill Hustle]

I understand and get the point clearly, but again, the controlls is not and shouldn't even be a priority for bettering the Dead or Alive series. Harder inputs ok, I can dig that, fine, but switching over to an aracde stick to give a pseudo feel of superiority, naahhh.

Not really for superiority, but let try using this example.

In the States if you get a Drivers License you don't need to get it specified for Manual Transmission or Automatic. Also more people are inclined to drive Automatic due too simpler controls.

But due to nature of how Automatics are built there are few factors that can be overlooked by those unfamiliar with Manual Transmission.

1. You can't push start a dead battery in an Automatic.

2. Because of the transmission, Racing Techniques such as Drifting are next to impossible in an Automatic Car, and it's also pulling out of a skid with a Manual Transmission.

Basically when a car is built for Performance Racing manual transmission is what engineers work to max out.

If it's for domestic uses a lot of high end bells and whistles get removed, and the car gets only the minimal street requirements. This probably rationalized by that the fact that the vehicle won't run into "extreme conditions"

So in this I'm saying that MAYBE if DOA kept it's "arcade feel" it would be more in line with DOA1, DOA++, and DOA2.

This not a pad VS Stick argument. Let's face it , those 3 titles are not hard on a pad. It's DOA not VF or Tekken.

(And that's not a swipe at DOA, the fact is DOA inputs are generally easier than the those two.)

But in games past those 3 stuff got "easier."

Remember when to Tag Throw it was either :F+P+k: or :F+P+k:?

Now it's just

Easier yes, but now your characters lose their normal 5 frame throws for a BIG damage Tag Throw.

My concerns are more towards if leniency in gameplay/inputs (shortcuts, etc) are affecting TN's updates.For the most part, other fighters stay consistent with "how they feel" (excluding the SF examples from earlier).

Yet it seems with each new DOA counter hold inputs (a staple of DOA's Tri system) keep changing.

I'm not too sure if its good or bad.

 

[Gill Hustle]

The point is to give the devs the impression, "Oh shit, we're on sticks now? Time to get serious."

Not quite what I'm saying, read above post.

 

[grap3fruitman]

That is sort of what you're saying though, to give the devs more incentive to appeal to the hardcore. To give them the mindset that hardcore players by giving them the tools generally used by those same players.

 

[Gill Hustle]

That is sort of what you're saying though, to give the devs more incentive to appeal to the hardcore. To give them the mindset that hardcore players by giving them the tools generally used by those same players.

Ahh that's more like it.

And let me add this as well.

DOAD uses the 3 point hold system, why?

Is it because TN felt the 3DS was going to be to difficult for 4 points OR is it evidence of the direction they want to go with DOA5?

 

[R4712-VR88]

I'm trying to learn to play stick so I bought a Madcatz Chun Li TE recently

That's awesome! Is there one of Juri? I'd totally buy it! ^.^

 

[Raansu]

Inputs don't make a better game, and neither do arcade sticks. It's the tools that make the game good. *points to doa3.1*

 

[virtuaPAI]

Inputs don't make a better game, and neither do arcade sticks. It's the tools that make the game good. *points to doa3.1*

-I agree. I happen to prefer Doa2's original input, and to this day still do Tina's throws the same(muscle memory I guess), but I do not believe inputs in itself make a better game, nor do arcade sticks. When you have great-solid tools, no matter what you use (pad or arcade stick), you will still have a great game.

 

[Raansu]

-I agree. I happen to prefer Doa2's original input, and to this day still do Tina's throws the same(muscle memory I guess), but I do not believe inputs in itself make a better game, nor do arcade sticks. When you have great-solid tools, no matter what you use (pad or arcade stick), you will still have a great game.

Speaking of muscle memory. To this day I still input 6k 46k for Jan Lee, even though that input was shortened lol.

 

[grap3fruitman]

but I do not believe inputs in itself make a better game, nor do arcade sticks.

That's not what we're saying. While I would like the older DOA2 inputs back, what we're saying is that to have Team Ninja feel as if they're trying to appeal to the hardcore by using a tool that typically only hardcore players use. That way, during the development of the next DOA game, they feel like they're trying to appeal to a hardcore audience instead of a casual one like they have with the past few.

 

[Berzerk!]

Making move inputs simpler to do should not be confused with dumbing a game down. Fighting games need to be as simple to control as possible while maintaining accuracy and strategic and tactical depth.
The moves need not be hard to do to achieve this, just logical enough to feel right and with enough differentiation so that when you attempt a move you are not likely to do something else by mistake.
Doa and vf have already achieved this with solid basics, for example Forward+Punch is universally an elbow. It is simple, unmistakeable and logical. It also feels just right in thatthe forward motion matches intuitively to the forward lean and mid striking height of the elbow.
This is elegant design and works great on pad or stick.
The problem I am finding having played Doa on pad the whole time but recently moving all my fighting game play to stick, is they have done a few things to make stick play a bit weird.
Certain moves especially ones with down motions which should work at 1, 2, or 3, on stick only work at 2 or 3, but any flick to 1 will be confused as a free step dodge and treated as a button press at neutral.
Eg if I do Lei Fangs low sweep with D+free+kick but hit the bottom left corner I will get her slow standing roundhouse.
This is inaccurate and not how the game should play.
They should definitely make it work on stick as it is more accurate a device than a pad, with a view to arability on both without shortcutting to compensate for the fuzziness of pad.

 

[Berzerk!]

That's not what we're saying. While I would like the older DOA2 inputs back, what we're saying is that to have Team Ninja feel as if they're trying to appeal to the hardcore by using a tool that typically only hardcore players use. That way, during the development of the next DOA game, they feel like they're trying to appeal to a hardcore audience instead of a casual one like they have with the past few.

Agree entirely with this sentiment. Their baseline approach needs to be for something serious and tournament worthy. It is fair to say arcade sticks are tools used for fighting games that imply a serious approach.
Ensuring the game works well on stick is good for a number of reasons and this is certainly a valid one. It need nit be about inputs and they can stay simple unless you are losing access to something you need

 

[Allan Paris]

The game is fine controller wise, I can see and understand the want for a harder inputs. Arcade sticks are not a serious need for people to play Dead or Alive. The gameplay is what's killing us not a pad or a stick or what people perfer to use. I get your analogy Gill, with that I understand better at what you and Grap3 are getting at, but still pad is fine it's not like a stick can't be used effectively in DOA.

I haven't gotten to deep off into MK9 yet but I know more than a few people say the game is pad friendly. Until I heard that I swore you needed an arcade stick to play the lot of 2D fighters, because of the inputs on pad and consistancy. But that's differnet for MK9 from what I heard, yeah a stick can be used effectively for that game but it's not needed. People are playing that hardbody because of the good mechanics in the game and not because of a controller perference or how it appelas to players.

I think and believe that if Dead or Alive picks up a more solid gameplay like the previous iterations in the series, it will be just fine and players will play it irregardless of what tool they need to use to play the game with.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Ive tried it on a stick, and the game is just awkward on a stick.

Right, and no one is denying that those who use stick feel the game "is just awkward". Saying "Stick won't work in future versions because it doesn't work now" is - frankly - a pointless statement.

Like when I played DOA++ I was looking for some familiar moves, only to find they have a few extra inputs I long forgot about using. But somehow when I kept playing it felt "right".

I enjoy DOA++ for similar reasons.

The game is fine controller wise, I can see and understand the want for a harder inputs. Arcade sticks are not a serious need for people to play Dead or Alive. The gameplay is what's killing us not a pad or a stick or what people perfer to use. I get your analogy Gill, with that I understand better at what you and Grap3 are getting at, but still pad is fine it's not like a stick can't be used effectively in DOA.

They aren't arguing that "Stick can't be used effectively in DOA.", or that it's a zero-sum that all must play on one hardware over the other. What's being complained about is that the lax buffering window in the game makes it awkward for other hardcore fighting game players who utilize one set of hardware to jump in.

Here's another way to think of what Gill was explaining, "The buffering window for moves and input recognition is too loose. I'd like to see it tightened up in the future. When you do in other games it comes out , but in DOA4 you'll get . This can cause errors in your move selection as instead of getting Hayate's you get Hayate's to appear.

Dead or Alive though isn't the only one to suffer from this buffering issue. Street Fighter has had similar issue because - even the developers have said for that game - that they added "shortcuts" to help pad players with the inaccuracies of the directional pad. You can do Ryu's Shoryuken () by just entering on a stick. However, this causes issues as sometimes a Shoryuken will appear when a Hadouken () was meant by entering a walking forward animation or move that had a forward input then adding the Hadouken motion (:Link:).

 

[Allan Paris]

Oohh completely understand now, seriously. Well yeah I agree with that as far as tightening it up, because those inputs don't come out as 100% of the time. My bad on that one, I see now. I still won't touch an arcade stick for this game.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I still won't touch an arcade stick for this game.

That was never the point of this thread.

 

[Allan Paris]

I know, I was just saying.

 

[Gill Hustle]

Leave it to Mr. Wah to convey what I had been trying to say in one post!

Damn I had pie charts, youtube vids, and links all lined up too. (I'm kidding).

Thanx also to Grap3 and Bezerk for the contributions. Really makes me wonder why I was hesitant to start posting questions here earlier cuz I think that was some good reading.

TN is aware of of FSD right gang?

BTW Ive been playing DOA++ on my PS3 Hori Stick (I don't even own a PS3) for some reason mt Madcatz SE's won't run properly.

The Hori feels GREAT!

 

[Matt Ponton]

Is your MadCatz SE a PS3 MadCatz SE?

If so, you need a USB card that supports UFHI format. An exclusive USB 1.1 to intel cards. Just had to set it up for my friend's PC so we could play Super AE and KOF 13.

 

[Rikuto]

Every single part of DOA seems to get dumbed down with newer iterations. Why are you so opposed to making the inputs a tiny-bit more difficult than they were in 3, 4 and Dimensions?

Because difficult or non-difficult input has nothing to do with system design, and because the buffer system is already fucked up enough as it is without tempting fate.

You're trying to place the blame of bad system design choices where it doesn't belong.

Making the game easier for stick users and harder for pad users isn't going to fix the problem, and it isn't even going to help fix the problem. It's just going to make it a little bit easier to tolerate for a small % of the community, and piss everybody else off.

Meanwhile, your game will still suck. So focus on shit that actually matters instead.