Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

[Asbel Lhant]

Honestly, Manny worries me. I just wonder if he actually knows what he's talking about. I mean, is it really that tough for him to understand that what he's asking for is the same thing that got DOA shunned for several years. I mean I just don't get him at all I just don't, I'm heavily perplexed trying to understand why he feels this is best for DOA. <_>

 

[Shinigamimatt]

Maybe Manny thinks that it wouldn't feel like DOA anymore. I can understand that. But, the thing is, I think what makes DOA feel like DOA, is the combos and holds. Even a DOA with what we want would still very much feel like DOA in my opinion.

We're actually just asking for the mechanics to change. Not the whole thing. We're not asking for DOA to change into VF or Tekken.

Or it could be that since Manny is good at DOA, he doesn't want it to change because then he'd have a harder time being so good. Not great reasons, but I can't honestly see any others on why he's so adamant about keeping DOA's potential back.

 

[Asbel Lhant]

^ If that's the case then it's apparent that Manny only cares about himself and Rep and not the game and the community. If he REALLY cared for DOA then he'd work harder in DOA5 with the new mechanics and curbstomp ppl with his Ryu,He'd also want it to get a healthy competitive scene as the rest of us do to. But he seems selfish that he only wants it play the way he wants it to play,rather than how EVERYONE wants it to play.

No beef with Manny I hardly know him to say much, So yeah just my two cents. Here's hoping DOA5 will do excellent.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I mean I just don't get him at all I just don't, I'm heavily perplexed trying to understand why he feels this is best for DOA. <_>

If DOA was good then he'd have to work a lot harder for his wins, which is exactly what he doesn't want. He and his buddies got free flights to E3 to play in a "tournament" against casual gamers to get $1k handed to him. Why would he want that to change?

 

[Asbel Lhant]

^ Then as I said in my above post he doesn't truly care for DOA, like the rest of us do. It's very selfish that's all he wants just for his benefit. What about the rest of us? Don't we have a say in all of this? Manny doesn't love DOA enough if he's wanting it to be very scrub friendly.

Edit: Also doesn't Manny want to be a true DOA champ, by overcoming the obstacles and curbstomping even the toughest players?

 

[Jefffcore]

You're adding wood to a fire that should never have been started. What's the point of throwing personal insults?

Read my last post again.

I have no idea what the system is in DOAD, but unless you get a sit-down stun on CH in DOA5 you're still playing that same guessing game. If you don't get a sit down right away in 5 they have at minimum 2 options to hold, if your character even has a sit down.

With CB's though you have 1 option that offers the guaranteed damage so it will be a go to move, as oppose to everything having the same effect.

The way CB's are right now you still have to guess to get the opportunity to even use one unless you have good sit-downs, and even those can be SE'd. The only thing he didn't take into a count is how having one option effects the game as oppose to how more than one do. His way actually offers less guessing up to the point of getting the guaranteed damage, but the attack offering the damage is a bigger guess.

 

[ScattereDreams]

I think what we all want in DOA5 is for guessing to be nullified so that it's not another DOA4. I haven't played DOAD so I was a little confused on what Master was talking about at first, but I think I understand a little bit more. Setup's to CB's requires 2-3 hit's which means your opponent has 2-3 chances to guess correctly and stop you. However with DOAD's hit attributes (correct me if i'm wrong), landing a CH, HCH, you can just go straight for a launcher afterwards and attain max height. With max height damage, honestly... I think I'd choose that over a CB setup. With DOAD hit attributes you only get one chance to guess correctly. With a side note, most of the critical bursts we've seen have slow start up's which will make the moves easy to hold on reaction (if you're not in a sit down stun of course).

True, you can do a sit down stun and leave your opponent in a situation where he/she can't hold, but slow escaping really defeats the purpose. However, it does turn into a VF scenario where if your opponent doesn't stun shake you get a free combo, but if they do you get a 50/50 mixup in favor of the offensive player. I'm not choosing sides, but what Master is saying does make since. You can probably get more damage off max height combo's, than a CB setup. Yes, doing a Critical Burst leads to guaranteed damage, but the set up itself is truly not guaranteed. I think that's what Master was trying to get some of you to understand.

 

[Rikuto]

I think what we all want in DOA5 is for guessing to be nullified so that it's not another DOA4. I haven't played DOAD so I was a little confused on what Master was talking about at first, but I think I understand a little bit more. Setup's to CB's requires 2-3 hit's which means your opponent has 2-3 chances to guess correctly and stop you. However with DOAD's hit attributes (correct me if i'm wrong), landing a CH, HCH, you can just go straight for a launcher afterwards and attain max height. With max height damage, honestly... I think I'd choose that over a CB setup. With DOAD hit attributes you only get one chance to guess correctly. With a side note, most of the critical bursts we've seen have slow start up's which will make the moves easy to hold on reaction (if you're not in a sit down stun of course).

True, you can do a sit down stun and leave your opponent in a situation where he/she can't hold, but slow escaping really defeats the purpose. However, it does turn into a VF scenario where if your opponent doesn't stun shake you get a free combo, but if they do you get a 50/50 mixup in favor of the offensive player. I'm not choosing sides, but what Master is saying does make since. You can probably get more damage off max height combo's, than a CB setup. Yes, doing a Critical Burst leads to guaranteed damage, but the set up itself is truly not guaranteed. I think that's what Master was trying to get some of you to understand.

We understand that perfectly.

The problem is that DOA has too many stuns as it is, and its pretty much a guarantee you're going to get a CH or HCH in this game. There would be no purpose in working the threshold at all if you can launch in one strike and take that much damage.

And once again, what Manny is suggesting is making EVERY SINGLE OPTION out of stun as desirable as the next because of that guaranteed launch height. That obliterates the concept of Game Theory and pretty much makes player behavior random as hell. Matches would be over lightning fast as well, and there would be no way to play logical defense.

You don't want that. Manny does. Don't be suckered in.

Right now, Bayman gets decent damage without CB and taking minimal risk... this is how it should be under the current stun system. He gets GREAT damage with CB, and his methods of reaching that CB are very linear. That is how it has to be, because if every single option gives him just about the same kind of whacky ass damage no one will ever be able to actively engage in any meaningful mindgame.

This is understood, which is why most seem to believe Manny is in complete favor of that kind of random behavior and lack of mindgames because he knows how to personally excel in that environment where most people cannot and do not want to.

 

[ScattereDreams]

Ahhh okay, I was looking at it from a VF stand point, don't know why. It is very easy to stun your opponent in DOA, let alone score a CH. With Characters having multiple launchers, scoring big damage would be simple, it actually would be more like a simpler Tekken.

 

[Rikuto]

Right, and you can't delay strings to hell and back in tekken like you can with DOA, which makes those CH's so easy. That in combination with the number of stuns would just make the game stupid if you didn't even have to get through the threshold.

If they trimmed down the stun game it'd be a different story but its just too late for that.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Its not random though... Whatever level of randomness there is would remain the same..

I make a decision to do something after another ... you need to figure it out ..just like in every other game out there.
If every combo is so linear with limited variation and less punish-ability and with a simple single hit confirm the game is no longer DOA ..

The system Master is suggesting is not as random as you may think, It would actually give a buff to every character in the game. It would even promote a strike buff in a very logical way.

Think about it. Some characters require more damage to dish out a decent enough launcher to do a decent enough combo. A huge portion of the game revolves around launchers as that has always been the go to method in dealing guaranteed damage.

Lets say you do a normal hit launcher on normal hit, you get a minimal launch.
Lets say you do the same move on counter hit, as a reward u get a better launch allowing a better juggle.
Lets say you do it on High counter hit, now you have threshold height. giving you max potential for an air juggle.

If anything, this promotes offense in a game everyone complained about being too powerful from the defense stand point.

It would also give you more of a reason to extend your stun.
Lets say you stun someone. Now in your head you want to think about weather you want to go for the launcher straight away ... or stun them 1 more time to get a slightly higher launch. its riskier, but more rewarding.
I don't think its as random as people think,

and in the end, the current concepts of the game remain the same as the stun system remains intact. But the net reward for a better read is far better rewarded.

Also, It trains you to know what the hell you actually did...
Lets say you went for the launcher, thinking of a high counter to punish a possible throw attempt, but instead the opponent does nothing so you get minimal height. This can screw your juggle up if you had the mindset of going for a max height juggle. So in the end you will hit them maybe a bit, but not what you had planned for. Why is this good ? Its because you need to know what you're doing all the time and not just press dumb buttons. At the same time someone can play it safe and have a universal juggle for all launches. Yes that could work, but you're missing out on a lot of combo potential. But this might be a safer option in a tournament where you are not sure about the opponent's reaction. But if you made an amazing read, then yes you go for the max damage. It also promotes training to use a different air juggles at every launch height because the max potential of each height is different.. I think that is an extra layer of depth there in fact.

I don't see this as a bad thing or random at all in fact. I just see it as an extra layer without changing how the overall game works. What is changing is not the stuns themselves, but the launch properties.

The game's "randomness" as you may call it, would not change at all as all the stun properties would remain intact.

I think that's actually not a bad thing at all.

Instead of saying this promotes randomness, how about properly explaining why it would, if the stun system in its current updated state would not change at all and you would still have your bursts ?

 

[Rikuto]

Uhhh....

Cow. You are not listening at all. I've gone over everything you just said like.... five times now. We're having this issue again where people are failing to read what is posted, and its starting to make me a little bit grumpy that I have to keep re-posting it because people don't want to agree with the facts. This is why I just said the argument was more emotional than logical for some of people, because its impossible to argue successfully against facts yet you and Master are attempting to by pretty much ignoring everything that is said in contradiction.


If there are limited options that lead to big damage (as it is now) the meta-game allows you to either avoid them completely or at least play damage control in a logical, guaranteed fashion. The tradeoff is that you have to be willing to eat the smaller amounts of damage every time. The is called game theory, and every (and i do mean every) good fighting game that has ever succeeded competitively has it. The reason they have it is because it gives you a fundamental basis for determining your opponents personality and intention, and that is what leads into the interesting mind games. It also lets you make safer choices rather than betting the farm on every situation where you've taken a small lick.

Remember that the vast majority of the damage is not coming from the hits done in stun threshold. They come from the launch hit itself, the mid air juggle, the environmental hit and any potential guaranteed followup that is allowed afterwards. Manny's system would make all of this highly accessible off of virtually any hit. NO!

What Manny is suggesting would allow big damage off of every possible hit level, and make it nearly impossible to determine what they are the most likely to do since they can just randomize their mixup and get a similar result.

What he is suggesting lacks game theory... and it would be the nail in the coffin for DOA 5 competitively.


Look, I'm getting tired of having this debate when people just ignore everything factual that disagrees with what they are saying. It's not even a debate, it's a broken record. You guys are wrong, and you're basically just endorsing a system that has been proven to create a critical failure of a fighting game.

I mean seriously, what is it going to take for me to get you guys to stop pushing these horrible ideas that have been proven to fail? You clearly don't listen to any of the facts we are telling you, and you don't appear to have learned your lessons from other fighting games either.

 

[Allan Paris]

For starters, why did you sit there and explain (in extreme depth) something that we already know? It has been properly explained why it promote randomness. Reading is fundamental.

It would also give you more of a reason to extend your stun.
Lets say you stun someone. Now in your head you want to think about weather you want to go for the launcher straight away ... or stun them 1 more time to get a slightly higher launch. its riskier, but more rewarding.
I don't think its as random as people think,

Once you get a CH or HCH, you get max launch height. There would be no need to extend the stun game. You will not get a slightly higher launch extending it. The CB would be pointless, that is why Manny is suggesting to take it out and replace it with DOAD's "hit statues and attributes" a.k.a Stun System. These two cannot co-exist.

Just like you sat there and figured out all the pros for that system. Do the same for the cons.

 

[Rikuto]

Why do the newer players always argue with the vets, Allan? Always. It's like they assume we got to where we are from luck or something... and they actually presume to understand the system better than us, while ignoring everything we tell them.

The first time, raising the question, I understand. The second time, the reiteration, I understand.

The fifth time.... the fifth time it's just being ignorant and refusing to look at the obvious, factual truth we are telling them.

It's starting to piss me off. I think I need a break for a few days.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Even though I tend to complicate things the situation would breakdown like so.

Heavy stun > mid kick_mid punch_high attack_oh_throw_or a low reset/extend.

Everything but the low reset would lead into at least 75 damage (very conservative estimate) without walls or dangerzones.

So from an offensive stand point you go into the mentality of every option Is golden. So pretty much it becomes abuse A until it stops working till you go to B.

Yomi is very very important but how does a system like that reward matchup knowledge or other factors? You best offensive and defensive options are be random as possible or psychic.

While the Doad stun system did improve the balance of the game it also only had 2 options for everything. From stun the defender either holds low or high. Thats it. You can avoid every option with those 2 tools. Pretty much a pure 50 50 with a bit of reward to the attacker. Not I have to choose between at least 3 options with one only slightly more rewarding then the others now half my life is gone. If you knew you matchups you could use this to your favor at least.

If you intorduce mid kicks and CB into the mix and every one of them is a third of a lifbar what is stopping them from just trying to out guess you?
Regardless of whos end the guessing is on the problem is there just needs to be less of it

Not saying that is exactly how I feel but it is at least one representation of the situation as far as I can tell. If wrong please correct me.

 

[Jefffcore]

That's almost exactly what DOA4 was already, Cow; minus the more damaging combos.

 

[Chris Harris]

@Rikuto - People forget that pretty much every hit in the game is a counter hit or high counter hit. This is due to the ability to delay strings and that every attack even on NORMAL HIT leaves you negative. Now if the game relied more on getting damage from poking and spacing with attacks that system MIGHT be fine but it isn't.

It's just like you said, the game would literally be - - - -

String variation until someone gets a high counter blow or counter blow go for launch. It becomes even more guess happy because no there is 0 mind game, and 0 intention of playing with any type of strategy. You just do strings until you hit them or they hit you. It would be DoA4.2 because DoA4 just made you extend the threshold to get damage, so it's basically doa4 minus extending the threshold at all.

The problem now is that it makes the game defense heavy again because now there is no reason to even attempt to open someone up because if you get counter hit it gets random really fast.

 

[Rikuto]

Even though I tend to complicate things the situation would breakdown like so.

Heavy stun > mid kick_mid punch_high attack_oh_throw_or a low reset/extend.

Everything but the low reset would lead into at least 75 damage (very conservative estimate) without walls or dangerzones.

So from an offensive stand point you go into the mentality of every option Is golden. So pretty much it becomes abuse A until it stops working till you go to B.

Yomi is very very important but how does a system like that reward matchup knowledge or other factors? You best offensive and defensive options are be random as possible or psychic.

While the Doad stun system did improve the balance of the game it also only had 2 options for everything. From stun the defender either holds low or high. Thats it. You can avoid every option with those 2 tools. Pretty much a pure 50 50 with a bit of reward to the attacker. Not I have to choose between at least 3 options with one only slightly more rewarding then the others now half my life is gone. If you knew you matchups you could use this to your favor at least.

If you intorduce mid kicks and CB into the mix and every one of them is a third of a lifbar what is stopping them from just trying to out guess you?
Regardless of whos end the guessing is on the problem is there just needs to be less of it

Not saying that is exactly how I feel but it is at least one representation of the situation as far as I can tell. If wrong please correct me.

If Manny had his way, there would be no yomi because every option is too good. Unequal options are a prerequisite for yomi to take place, and a single hit max height launch is too close to what a CB can do for that to happen.

I WANT YOU to fear my CB. I want you to fear its use so that you anticipate it and that allows me to play actual mindgames with you. But if every launch does comparable damage, where is the mindgame? Most of you will just counter shit randomly because I'll be attacking randomly.

This leads to a far lower quality of competitive play, and it pisses people off.

 

[MrMoon360]

So basically, all we've managed to do in DOA 5 is add a mechanic that slightly brings a meta-game to "DOA 4"; while nerfing holds.
This is some progress and is good, I suppose.
It would be nice to make the game so that CB can't be ignored-- for all characters. (e.g. sit-down stuns with follow-ups)

In the time we have, its the best we can get. Lets hope for the best of this system in September.

 

[DriftSlave]

I honestly find if funny that Rikuto had to repeat himself multiple times(some times in the same thread mind you) to get his point across....Generally I understand situation and I just really want to sitdown and break this game down to it's core. But I do find it interesting when Rikuto talks about game theory(if you can Rikuto can you PM me to enlighten me on the subject?).