Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

[TRI Mike]

I might be wrong but I don't really think the DOAD stun system and CB system can live in the same game. I'd rather just have the CB as they are now. I mean, it's not like most characters REQUIRE max height for good damage. Look at Tina's air throw for example, in DOA4 it was almost impossible to pull it off because good players always escaped from the long stuns by holding something but in DOA5 she could go for the CB, guarantee a normal launch and air throw her opponent's ass for very decent damage.

 

[MASTER]

I might be wrong but I don't really think the DOAD stun system and CB system can live in the same game. I'd rather just have the CB as they are now. I mean, it's not like most characters REQUIRE max height for good damage. Look at Tina's air throw for example, in DOA4 it was almost impossible to pull it off because good players always escaped from the long stuns by holding something but in DOA5 she could go for the CB, guarantee a normal launch and air throw her opponent's ass for very decent damage.

I need to be clear on something after reading your post. Its not the stun system from DOADimensions that i would like implemented. Its the hit statuses and attributes that come with those statuses. This applies to not only attacks but good throw setups and Holds that position you for strong stuns and juggles. You can actually leave most of the stun animations and moves that cause those stuns the same in DOA5 but the attributes are the ones that change depending on the status you achieve. I didn't mean to confuse anyone by saying i want DOAD Stuns. I just would like to see the hit/hold/throw statuses and attributes implemented in DOA5. Attack stuns just happen to be the more obvious changes you would see if it were implemented.

Also just because characters no longer need max height for most air throws and juggles doesnt mean it still cant be a good option to have. Again the hit statuses is what rewards you. If you stun someone on normal hit and launch them, then you wouldn't get much reward compared to the CH and HCH scenarios.

MASTER

 

[Chris Harris]

I need to be clear on something after reading your post. Its not the stun system from DOADimensions that i would like implemented. Its the hit statuses and attributes that come with those statuses. This applies to not only attacks but good throw setups and Holds that position you for strong stuns and juggles. You can actually leave most of the stun animations and moves that cause those stuns the same in DOA5 but the attributes are the ones that change depending on the status you achieve. I didn't mean to confuse anyone by saying i want DOAD Stuns. I just would like to see the hit/hold/throw statuses and attributes implemented in DOA5. Attack stuns just happen to be the more obvious changes you would see if it were implemented.

Also just because characters no longer need max height for most air throws and juggles doesnt mean it still cant be a good option to have. Again the hit statuses is what rewards you. If you stun someone on normal hit and launch them, then you wouldn't get much reward compared to the CH and HCH scenarios.

MASTER

Here's the problem with your scenario. . .we don't land stuns on normal hit. The game doesn't allow you to with how the frame data is. 9 times out of 10 the first substantial stun is from a CH either because you used a string and delayed or they guessed right on whatever string manipulation/tick throw the opponent went for. Other than that you will fish for whiffs with attacks that knockdown.

While in theory your idea works out well it doesn't change the fact that everything is counter hit already and with CB you are rewarded for getting the stun in general. What you seem to be suggesting is that you want them to switch out CB with DoA attributes (correct if I'm wrong)?

 

[MajesticBlue]

Do you mean like how Hitomi's 6T leaves you at plus 10 while a counter throw gives 15? Or how certain holds give you more advantage depending on if it was normal or a counter hold? To be honest I haven't spent as much time with Doa 4 as I have with DoaD (the opposite of everybody else here) so I don't know if they are new attributes. Not sure If I am the only one who is not quite following. I do remember that some moves in Doa 4 did give you different stuns depending on the hit type. DoaD did further this idea as well.

Since very few people actually put time into DoaD the best way to go about this is just to make a short list of specific changes to get the point across. At least that way specifics can be argued instead. The numbers can tell the story.

There is a a lot on the line for Doa 5 so If I am gonna argue to help shape the game. Everybody needs as much info as possible. At least I feel I do.

 

[Allan Paris]

Riddle me this; How can a man not want a particular system implemented in a game, but yet, want the same elements that make up that system, implemented elsewhere?

Let me answer your question real quick and then breakdown the situation you are stating. Im not avoiding guaranteed situations, I'm actually giving them to you on a silver platter but you choose to ignore me or not understand clearly what I'm saying because of your lack of knowledge in DOAD and DOA5.

Allowing me to be held once after I stun someone is not giving me a guaranteed situation on a sliver platter. There's not much knowledge be to be had with DOAD, I know that much. It's not huge step-up from DOA4, and I know you know that; if no one else. So far all I hear is this great stun game, I mean, "hit statues and attributes". That gives my opponent one chance to hold me once after I stun them, regardless of max height or not, it is the same constant guessing game as DOA4, when I hit someone.

Now you're knowledgeable in DOA5? Well which is it, first you say you only had limited time with the game, and now you understand the game at a higher level? Yeah, you played way more than I did (I didn't play it at all) and even still you didn't use all of the new mechanics given to you. Though you understand and can utilize them at their full potential, ok.

Here is the breakdown of your set up. You have your initial stun like you stated, rather it be through NH, CH or whatnot, and then you have to do the CB move twice correct? So let me get this straight, you stun them once and now they have an opportunity to hold you but lets go ahead and say you are successful with the follow up. Which in this case is the first CB move but now they are stunned again and can of course hold you again. Of course at this point you try to go for your 2nd CB move because the game is going to give you the CB Stun but the point still remains that you have 2 opportunities to stop the combo in this set up NOT one like you stated.

In this setup here, I have the option to go for something guaranteed, unlike DOAD's "hit statues and attributes". You're right, this needs to be fixed; playing into this dumb guessing game in the stun. DOAD's system keeps up this shenanigan. The CB helps the stun game go into the offender's favor. If the 2nd one is achieved, I can do whatever I want. Or I can launch you regularly and toy with your mind (some of your beloved system), with the thought of you getting CB'ed lingering every time I stun you. That there is called fear, my friend. Which it seems that you want to stray away from.

This also applies to the sit down stun AP. You can shake out of the sit down stun and block the CB move. If you can shake and block the CB move, guess what that also means? You can shake and hold the CB move still giving you 2 chances to hold/block in THIS particular set up and not all characters have those. This essentially means it may be even harder for them to get CB.

Well with this, we all have been lied to since you claim this. We all were told that you can't hold out of a sit-down stun, and that SE'ing and then blocking is your only option. Although, I find it funny that you never once held Erik's CB mid-punch from Bayman. Not once, from the several times he put you in the situation you are saying you can hold from, did you hold. You could SE and block, though, I clearly saw that from you and other players who knew better not to get hit by the mid-punch.

So, who do we believe?

Again in DOAD if you CH or HCH someone and launch then your height is essentially max height where as in DOA4 and currently in DOA5 it forces you to play the stun game to get a better launch. My set up of stunning someone and then launching your opponent really high with a 15frame mid-K,mid-P or High attack for great damage only offers 1 opportunity to get out. Not to mention that my set of moves will be faster than the CB move itself which also makes it harder to read. The beauty of this mechanic is that it also rewards good throw setups and Holding set ups that gave you guaranteed follow ups without losing any damage revision. (This is a similar system DOA2 and DOA3 used BTW and I know a lot of you love those games)

I know what the DOAD system is, it is the same guessing that DOA4 offers, with higher consequences on the defender for holding and missing. I don't want to play DOA4 anymore, 7 years was enough. The same "beauty" you are speaking on with DOAD's mechanic is in DOA5. You miss a hold, I can actually punish you now, and the holding setup is; I can do a normal launcher or I can get a stun that can't be held out of. Oh yeah, I can still throw you with without losing damage revision.

DOAD's system replays: Hit/Launch, guess which hold to throw punish, Hit/Launch, guess which hold to throw punish. Now where have I seen this game play before. . . . Hhmm.

For someone that doesn't want to jump out of a window for one guy talking about something that is definitely good for the game, i find it interesting that you would easily do it for someone else. Especially since you haven't tested what that person is saying either.

This is cute. To bad I am too smart for this. Playing something is better than watching it, I give you that. However, I have seen a new mechanic (72 hours worth in real time and constantly happening from certain players) in the game and have had it explained on a detailed level from 2 reliable sources. To the person you are referring me to, as far as, "jumping out the window with their thoughts." I am not doing, not even in the slightest bit. Furthermore, not to throw jabs but, that individual really was doing that, purposely. Then admitted to liking to play Devil's Advocate. Which I have no big problem with said "Advocate", though it is annoying, sometimes.

Hopefully if they don't implement DOAD's system or add more CB moves. I can and will test it, again and again and again. Though without me touching it, I know I will appreciate that over DOAD's system, any day.

Just so you know, I do understand everything you are talking about. This isn't rocket science or Chinese arithmetic. So, yeah, I know fully that I do not want DOAD's "hit statues and attributes" and that the rest of the competitive community does not want it either. So, as "our DOA Champion or Representative" please let that be known with the company that is building our game.

Let me know when you find the answer to that riddle.

Thank You.

 

[Jefffcore]

If you can SE into block, then by default you should be able to hold.

I have no idea what the system is in DOAD, but unless you get a sit-down stun on CH in DOA5 you're still playing that same guessing game. If you don't get a sit down right away in 5 they have at minimum 2 options to hold, if your character even has a sit down.

With CB's though you have 1 option that offers the guaranteed damage so it will be a go to move, as oppose to everything having the same effect.

Personally I'd still like CB's to be improved upon. I think in the end it would be the better option, and I like new.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Was thinking the same thing about holding the CB since If you have enough frames to block you should be able to hold.I remember talk about the new mechanic but not exactly how it works. If so it kinda reminds me of the limbo stun option selects.

Oh I think I figured it out. You can only SE into the block because while you are shaking the stun. You still can not hold for the whole duration of the unshaken stun maybe? So you still take the whole sit-down but have so many frames of the stun still active while you SE into block.

 

[Allan Paris]

With CB's though you have 1 option that offers the guaranteed damage so it will be a go to move, as oppose to everything having the same effect.

Personally I'd still like CB's to be improved upon. I think in the end it would be the better option, and I like new.

This is the point.

 

[Jefffcore]

Bayman's 3K on counter hit is a sit-down stun in DoaD. Not sure if this part is the issue though.

I was thinking the same thing about holding the CB since If you have enough frames to block you should be able to hold. Maybe it is a new mechanic. If so it kinda reminds me of the limbo stun option selects.

Oh I think I figured it out. You can only SE into the block because while you are shaking the stun. You still can not hold for the whole duration of the unshaken stun maybe? So you still take the whole sit-down but have so many frames of the stun still active while you SE into blocking.

You can't hold while you're in the critical state. If you get to a blocking state you'd be able to hold because holds come out at 0i.

 

[MajesticBlue]

You can't hold while you're in the critical state. If you get to a blocking state you'd be able to hold because holds come out at 0i.

Thats what is confusing me. Guess we need somebody to tell us if there is more at play here. I have a feeling we just didn't see anybody do it and it is possible. At one point I remember somebody saying holds just didnt feel like they would come out at times though.

 

[Rikuto]

Its not necessarily that i dont like seeing the same move twice Erik. You misunderstood me. Its more of the fact that you are rewarded for using the CB move twice (with a Powerblow) and that goes against the core mechanics of DOA.

Do explain this statement. You are capable of countering the CB if it is done twice in a row... in fact it is a worse decision to take this shortcut because you are not getting the full damage of everything uncounterable you could have used within the threshold. In fact, if I use a CB early I've just done the damage within the threshold I could have used for uncounterable stuns and bottlenecked my options for getting a true CB which makes my intent much more transparent.

This isn't breaking DOA's fundamentals, it's actually choosing to play riskier.

However, if we did as you say we should and put in the DOAD system where great launch height comes off of every counter-hit, then effectively yes we HAVE broken the system because it doesn't matter what comes after that bottleneck -- big damage will happen regardless.

 

[TRI Mike]

Manny, I know you want what you think is best for the game. We all understand that but what you're suggesting is more guessing and more of the same things DOA has suffered the last seven years (and even before in the DOA2U and 3.0 times) but you gotta understand that the franchise has had a comatose tourney life because of this guessing system and that needs to change. The CBs are a great option to make the game more competitive, same with reducing hold damage, balance for the grapplers, sidestepping and the other stuff that's being implemented. Look at the EVO tournaments happening right now. SSF4AE, SC5, MK9 and UMvC3 are having hundreds and hundreds of people and I never ever saw a DOA tourney with those numbers of players, no matter how pretty Kasumi was or how big Tina's boobs were.

I'm totally sure that no matter what Team Ninja does, DOA will never be as popular as we want it to be because the boxart says "Team Ninja" instead of "Capcom". The best proof of this is KOF13 and VF5 which are the best 2D and 3D fighters respectively and no one plays them. But with the changes they're making, DOA5 will see a very cool tournament life that will last at least a couple of years until we either move to another game or stay on it doing matchmaking in this forum. I respect you a lot as a fellow DOA player and even admire your skills but you gotta understand that you're suggesting the wrong things and we're a little bit scared of it because we know how important your opinion is to Team Ninja and if they listen to you, the game will end up being DOA4.2. Help us make the game better.

I know I'm a nobody in the DOA world and that's mainly because I live in a far-away country and flying to tournaments is extremely difficult for me but even if I could have done it, there were simply not many events to participate in. CGS was a mess in my opinion and the WCG life was too short. But I'm now able to organize and participate in DOA5 during 2013 but if the game ends up being a guessing fiasco I know I'll never be able to live my favorite game as I want to. That's why I agree on the stuff Rikuto and DrDogg are suggesting and I'm doing whatever I can to make Team Ninja listen to the Free Step Dodgers. No matter how many tournaments you've won. I'm sure you want EVO-like things to happen for DOA5 so help us make them real.

 

[OSTCarmine]

thank you TRI Mike, im hoping Manny listens to this very nice plea from a true fan. the other guys on here have all lost their patience for him lol.
Im digging CBs, i wish there were multiple more options like these and that they were mostly character specific, not universal like the CB. all characters should have a nice set of guaranteed setups, in the same way they have specific strings and moves. CBs are step 1 TN, lets get cracking on the rest! I am PUMPED to see exactly how this game turns out! Nothing anybody can say is going to change that! I love exclamation marks!!!!

 

[Rikuto]

I would hope Manny can listen to reason, but the fact that the community is always clashing with him on these subjects makes me wonder if the argument is more emotional than logical...

I mean, come on.... the entire argument rests on the idea that CH should be infinitely more rewarding than a NH, but CH are far more common in DOA and he knows this. Why would you give a greater reward to a more common situation? In fact the only way to really get a NH in DOA is to whiff punish, which means your spacing/evasion has to be super on-point. Frankly that should be giving a bigger reward when you consider how much effort that takes compared to just getting in someones face and fucking around with the delay/free cancel game.

I think deep down he knows what he is saying is wrong... I mean he has to. So why are we even having the argument?

 

[OSTCarmine]

un

I would hope Manny can listen to reason, but the fact that the community is always clashing with him on these subjects makes me wonder if the argument is more emotional than logical...

I mean, come on.... the entire argument rests on the idea that CH should be infinitely more rewarding than a NH, but CH are far more common in DOA and he knows this. Why would you give a greater reward to a more common situation? In fact the only way to really get a NH in DOA is to whiff punish, which means your spacing/evasion has to be super on-point. Frankly that should be giving a bigger reward when you consider how much effort that takes compared to just getting in someones face and fucking around with the delay/free cancel game.

I think deep down he knows what he is saying is wrong... I mean he has to. So why are we even having the argument?

agreed, with a little footnote...
Unless they change the definitions of CH, or add different types of CH. then yes, some instances of CH should do more damage than others. example - crushes could yield better CH than a Punish, i dont know if they already do. as far as NH over CH is concerned, you are already getting stun, which eliminates your opponents blocking option, so there is no need for any extras imo. im not even going to mention the hold sitch here cuz we all know how easy that topic blows up

 

[Chris Harris]

The only normal hit moves that are commonly connecting are knockdown attacks, raw normal attack launchers, and sweeps. Everything else is just CH and HCH due to the way is played with the string delay and string manipulation.

 

[TRI Mike]

un

agreed, with a little footnote...
Unless they change the definitions of CH, or add different types of CH. then yes, some instances of CH should do more damage than others. example - crushes could yield better CH than a Punish, i dont know if they already do. as far as NH over CH is concerned, you are already getting stun, which eliminates your opponents blocking option, so there is no need for any extras imo. im not even going to mention the hold sitch here cuz we all know how easy that topic blows up

Those instances where some CH are stronger than others are already there: HCH

 

[Sagittarius]

I'm so worried as to what will happen with DOA5 due to the split in community and certain people having TN's ear moreso than others.
The quarreling could destroy DOA, yet it's necessary to fend off the terrible suggestions and reinforce the ones that will actually make the game viable..

I hope the news DrDogg gives us is good, and if it's not, we need to make a formal letter addressing EVERYTHING that we as competitive players feel needs to be done with the game to make it right and pass it around to various gaming sites and collect signatures from players from all over the FGC and then eMail/tweet/whateverthehell it to Team Ninja.

Maybe that'll get more attention than forums full of bickering fans amongst a very divided community because if it's giving me and likely others migraines, it can't be easy for them to sift through while looking for solid feedback.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I'm so worried as to what will happen with DOA5 due to the split in community and certain people having TN's ear moreso than others.
The quarreling could destroy DOA, yet it's necessary to fend off the terrible suggestions and reinforce the ones that will actually make the game viable..

I don't feel it's quarreling. You're going to have heated discussions when there are differing opinions about an unreleased game that not everyone has equal access to.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

I'd say it's more of healthy debating really. Somewhat heated, but healthy discussion all the same. Everyone here wants DOA to be as best as it can be, so even with differing opinions, we're all on the same page. For the most part.