Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

[Rikuto]

Rikuto, its not about light or darkness.
It's just that I don't find what you propose convincing, not to me at least. I simply have a different point of view to what you have, and that's absolutely normal in any debate.

We do have middle grounds, however, where we agree sometimes on some points.

But just to set the records straight. I am by no means NEW to DOA nor am I NEW to the fighting scene in general.
As I have stated many times before, I just never knew that game specific sites like this existed. But this does not mean I don't know what I am talking about.

To set the records straight, I do have full respect for an opposing opinion and especially one that is attempted to be backed up by evidence without showing any disrespect. And at several points in the discussion there were points where I actually agreed with what you said but others which I did not.

I disagreed with removing delayed strings and I disagreed with creating more situations that don't allow holds that there already currently is. I stated my reasons for this in the past. We disagreed. And that was that. I'm not the type to go back and forth over the same damn thing over and over.

However, I don't claim my opinion to be a MAJORITY opinion nor do I think that yours is one either. People have different tastes and different points of view.

And as for the broken record "Lets Get Tournament Viable Baby! - The hit single". With the current changes to DOA5, the game will have its time in the spotlight. How long that will be will be determined by the community and this is something neither you nor I can predict at this point. This is a new game and a new generation. The game is coming out at a time where the market is infested with nothing but shit fighters. Plus, the MAJOR complaints about DOA4 have all been addressed and sorted and we all know this. Lets just wait and see how it plays out.

The game doesn't have to have the same rule set as everything else out there to be accepted. In fact I think this time around people might actually be thirsty for something "different".

I said this before, I do respect the fact that you actually do your best to validate your argument points. which is why most of the time I reply to your comments more than anyone else. The rest just seem to be nothing but... sheep .. with nothing extra to add to the discussion. They just bark what others tend to say with nothing to back it up with when confronted.

No. There is no middle ground on this whatsoever, and there are no opposing viewpoints. The game either employs Game Theory or it does not.

Games that do employ it can succeed on some level competitively, sometimes. Games that do not are considered critical failures, always. I cant think of even a single exception to this.

What I don't understand is how there can be something so blatantly factual, but you still think this is some kind of a debate where it's alright to disagree. You can't disagree with a fact that has been proven.

So just what exactly are you attempting to disagree with?

Are you saying that Master's plan does not remove Game Theory, even though it makes the defender equally scared of every single option in the game inside of stun? (which are, by proxy, unavoidable in such a stun heavy game) If so, you're fighting against a contradiction to game theory itself.

Or are you saying that Game Theory is not necessary for a successful fighting game? Because if you are saying that, you need to give me at least one example.

An opinion is an interpretation of a fact or collection of facts. What I'm seeing is not an opinion, it is a denial of fact.

 

[MASTER]

Just so everyone can understand since some of you are still not getting it, DOAD's Hit Statuses, and the attributes that come with them, DO NOT change DOA5's currents attack stun animations at all. With that said I want to also mention that the majority of DOA5 stuns (with exception of sit down stuns), are the shortest stuns in DOA history since DOA2. With that in mind, that means a good portion of DOA5 stuns are shakable to avoid some launchers, sitdown stuns and CB's.

I do understand that a good portion (Not ALL) of stuns will come from CH or HCH. And although you are successful with an actual hit your opponent still has 1 option to hold. This was similar to DOA2 and DOA3 not to mention that DOA3 had wall bounce that also gave you max launch height. This mechanic was taken away from DOA4 so anyone that played DOA4 ONLY will not understand what I am talking about. Since it was take from DOA4 it forced you to play the stun game more not to mention that you could hold just about whenever. This hurt the game tremendously. I'm trying to bring back the mechanic that not only makes sense to DOA but was also used previously including DOAD!

No one had a problem with this mechanic in the past. In fact, people cried on how DOA4 didnt give anyone a good launch height which btw affect character tiers. Now I do understand that CB's give guaranteed damage once it lands but like i said before and like someone in this thread mentioned, the set ups are NOT guaranteed. This is what forces you to gamble again similar to DOA4. Allen Paris said if you can shake the stun and hold how come i didnt do it? Well i was actually testing it and realized it was actually possible during the event. Although Bryan was preaching to everyone before hand that it was NOT (Which obviously wasn't true).

Here are two videos showing it and both shoutcasters sounded confused.

This is where i was shaking out of the sitdown stun and blocked. As you can see if I had more time to mess with baymans set up i would have ALSO been able to hold. Look at my recovery.
Go to 35:15 mark to see Erik/Rikuto do the sit down stun and if you look at baymans recovery, he was definitely not late with the CB set up.
http://twitch.tv/ipldoa/b/320695159

This is where i shaked out of the stun and held the sit down stun.
Go to 11:35 mark to see the sit down stun right before mamba loses. Look at my recovery

Again Im not saying that CB's need to leave the game. I say keep them but implement DOAD's statuses so i dont always have to gamble on the same hit over and over.

Another thing that needs to be completely clear is that DOAD's statuses cater to better throw set ups. This means that if you have a throw that changes the positioning of your opponent, it will be much more rewarding with a Counter Throw and Hi-Counter Throw. Lets say a throw leaves you at +5 behind your opponent or by the wall but with CT and HCT it gives you +15 and to add to that, if you hit your opponent within that frame advantage then your launcher will be MAX height. This rewards smart play and set ups.

DOAD's attributes also contribute to Offensive and Defensive holds. For example if Jann Lee holds your mid punch and gets a Counter HOLD status, he will obviously have plenty of frame advantage but he also has an oppotunity to launch you with anything but since it was CH status his reward is greater and now Jann lee can actually get a good damaging juggle where as before he only got 6PK =/ (In DOA4). Another example is his dragon gunner (OH). Assuming you are not by a wall jann lee is +24 on the OH but if its HCH then he can attack you to extend the stun and launch immediately and get MAX height(2 chances to stop him). However if you ARE by a wall, then he doesnt have to even extend the stun and still get max height with any of his launchers (1 Chance to stop him).

The thing about the DOAD hit statuses though is that these set ups are planned and strategized and not random. Your opponent can still hold in these situations to play some form of damage control but the opportunities are lowered and like i mentioned, usually only 1 chance to stop it. The odds are in your favor since the hold will only do 40points on average while the juggle usually is closer to 80 if not 100pts depending on your character and Stage Dangerzone.

@Bryan, You CAN NOT guarantee anything, we've been through this already. What were those hitomi and hayabusa set ups again?

@Erik, I'm not shady.

Just because i dont agree with some of you %100 does not make me arrogant. There has been some interesting suggestions but some of the suggestions i have heard I THINK are bad. I'm also not surprised that TK/Team Ninja also believe that too.

Taking delayed strings out = Not happening
Taking holds out of stun completely = Not Happening
Unshakable Sit down stuns = Not Happening

Its not just me saying it. Its several others and Them. DOAD's hit statuses is the only thing that is up for discussion based off of what they said at E3. Will they do it or not is the real question. I think they should put it back in there.

MASTER

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Infested with nothing but shit fighters? Well, to be honest, if it's any more like DOA4, it'd add to that "list" quite well.

Its nothing like DOA4, That has been well established since the alpha demo.
It drifted even further with E3.

Shinbori and Co. know what they're doing.

 

[OSTCarmine]

wth are "Statuses"?

 

[Matt Ponton]

wth are "Statuses"?

Shouldn't it be 'stati'? Either way, I think he's talking about threshold ranges for launcher variances. His terminology can be confused for any number of attributes for attacks in DOAD such as frame disadvantage, stun state, damage, launch/relaunch capabilities. Seems he's taking 5 or 6 different attributes, combining them under one term, and is upset people are confused by his words.

 

[Asbel Lhant]

Maybe he's finally getting it?

Hah I wish.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Are you saying that Master's plan does not remove Game Theory, even though it makes the defender equally scared of every single option in the game inside of stun? (which are, by proxy, unavoidable in such a stun heavy game) If so, you're fighting against a contradiction to game theory itself.

Or are you saying that Game Theory is not necessary for a successful fighting game? Because if you are saying that, you need to give me at least one example.

An opinion is an interpretation of a fact or collection of facts. What I'm seeing is not an opinion, it is a denial of fact.

Every "Game" has "Theory". This "Theory" does not need to be the same. Plain and simple.

The defender SHOULD be scared when getting hit. Are you saying that the defender should NOT be scared? Whats the point of attacking then ?

As for counter hits. when you get counter hit, in ANY game, this is because of a mistake YOU made. Some games give you stun, some games give you damage, some games give you higher launch, some games give all three, one of them being VF5FS!

The setups to follow are not guaranteed and the stun system does not change. I've explained this already for people who don't seem to know what we're talking about and people actually criticized me on this. But it seems the concept being proposed is not very well understood.

Even the most out of place fucked up game has its "Theory" I am not implying throwing all logic out the window. In fact, I explained the "Theory" behind the suggested implementation very clearly I think.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Every "Game" has "Theory". This "Theory" does not need to be the same. Plain and simple.

Wait. What?

There's nothing 'plain and simple' about game theory, if it is then it's not a viable game. The theory has been in discussion for centuries. There's a reason there are still books being sold to this day discussing it. John Nash even received a Nobel Prize in Economics for his years of work on its concepts, revolutionizing the modern business world with his theories and suppositions. There are entire collegiate class structures dedicated to the discussions of the theories.

You're looking at the individual words and not looking at the concepts behind the full term "Game Theory". I suggest you do some reading up on the subject (Amazon's dedicated category for it). I know you're a sound individual with at least an educated mind so I would hope this isn't the first time and place you've heard of it.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Lol, What are you guys really arguing about? I for one do not want to play the stun(threshold) game at all, and Do like the Doa2/3 method of Launch/throw mixup on a stunned opponent. Would rather you couldn't hold out of the stun, but it is a safer alternative to risking a CB at the moment. CB's in fact play into the stun threshold game (which many of us showed disdain). CB's need to be beefed up and made into an actual threat(1/5-1/3rd life), and rewarded well for manipulating the threshold.

 

[DrDogg]

I actually got the ropes to bounce Doc, but you have to do it at a very specific distance and angle. It's not a point blank thing.

Easy to miss. Didn't have a second person around at the time so I wasn't able to see if it was an unholdable bounce or not.

I wonder if it was changed in the E3 build. I may go back to the old build and see if it's in there, but I tested it pretty thoroughly because I thought it was odd they didn't bounce.

I dont think he meant that way Dogg. I think he meant that the overall completeion of the Characters, levels etc. are basically done...

The character models are done, and I'd assume most of the stage visuals are done, but that's about it. If that's all he's referring to, I don't see how that equates to a developer sitting on the title for 6 months.

so how much revision could TN do with an update anyhow? I don't quite understand the limits of their powers once a game is releasead

Anything that has a value to it is pretty easy to change. Frame data, damage, the type of stun you get from something, anything that doesn't require a visual change to something completely new.

Of course, a developer could technically change a lot more than that with a patch, but it's not really practical for a number of reasons.

Now I do understand that CB's give guaranteed damage once it lands but like i said before and like someone in this thread mentioned, the set ups are NOT guaranteed.

In the build just before E3, there were guaranteed CB setups. This was removed from the E3 build by allowing people to SE out of sit down stuns, something that I suggested should be removed so that the guaranteed setups return.

Although Bryan was preaching to everyone before hand that it was NOT (Which obviously wasn't true).

It was true in the build I had just before E3. It was changed in the E3 build, which was a big disappointment.

@Bryan, You CAN NOT guarantee anything, we've been through this already. What were those hitomi and hayabusa set ups again?

Read the part that I quoted. You said nothing about guaranteed, you were discussing Hitomi and Hayabusa connecting a CB in 3 hits or less. You said they can't do, but in actuality, they can.

Taking delayed strings out = Not happening
Taking holds out of stun completely = Not Happening
Unshakable Sit down stuns = Not Happening

Its not just me saying it. Its several others and Them. DOAD's hit statuses is the only thing that is up for discussion based off of what they said at E3. Will they do it or not is the real question. I think they should put it back in there.

Well that's all very bad news. I do not expect holds to be taken out of stun completely (this is been mentioned many, many times already), but not removing the string delays and especially not removing unshakeable sit down stuns is a huge blow. I don't know if the game can be competitive without at least one of those three changes.

I'll still hold out that enough of my suggestions make it in so that we can possibly still get a competitive DOA5, but if your statement is correct, my hope dropped significantly. If it turns out like you're saying, the competitive scene won't last through the end of the year and I certainly won't be playing it.

Oh well, at least I have other games to play. Enjoy your 10-man tournaments and 70-player Evo... if it even makes it to Evo.

Its nothing like DOA4, That has been well established since the alpha demo.
It drifted even further with E3.

Shinbori and Co. know what they're doing.

All of the main problems that existed in DOA4 are still present in the E3 build, they've just been lessened a bit (but not enough).

Lol, What are you guys really arguing about? I for one do not want to play the stun(threshold) game at all, and Do like the Doa2/3 method of Launch/throw mixup on a stunned opponent. Would rather you couldn't hold out of the stun, but it is a safer alternative to risking a CB at the moment. CB's in fact play into the stun threshold game (which many of us showed disdain). CB's need to be beefed up and made into an actual threat(1/5-1/3rd life), and rewarded well for manipulating the threshold.

If they improve the neutral game and go back to sit down stuns being unshakeable, then CBs would be guaranteed and you wouldn't have to mess with the stun system at all.

 

[AKNova7]

Lol, What are you guys really arguing about? I for one do not want to play the stun(threshold) game at all, and Do like the Doa2/3 method of Launch/throw mixup on a stunned opponent. Would rather you couldn't hold out of the stun, but it is a safer alternative to risking a CB at the moment. CB's in fact play into the stun threshold game (which many of us showed disdain). CB's need to be beefed up and made into an actual threat(1/5-1/3rd life), and rewarded well for manipulating the threshold.

Timeout. 50-55% should be absolute max damage in this game, and that should include a danger zone relaunch.

In the build just before E3, there were guaranteed CB setups. This was removed from the E3 build by allowing people to SE out of sit down stuns, something that I suggested should be removed so that the guaranteed setups return.

They probably added slow escape to sit-downs to aid the characters without currently highlighted sit-down setups.

 

[Master_Thespian]

Oh well, at least I have other games to play. Enjoy your 10-man tournaments and 70-player Evo... if it even makes it to Evo.

All the money from a small tournament is better than no money from a large one, I suppose.

I've actually sort of just made my mind up that this game won't be very good and hope that grap3 decides to...erm...remix the game. Even if just to show what a game without all the nonsense would look like. *sigh*

 

[AKNova7]

Well that's all very bad news. I do not expect holds to be taken out of stun completely (this is been mentioned many, many times already), but not removing the string delays and especially not removing unshakeable sit down stuns is a huge blow. I don't know if the game can be competitive without at least one of those three changes.

I'll still hold out that enough of my suggestions make it in so that we can possibly still get a competitive DOA5, but if your statement is correct, my hope dropped significantly. If it turns out like you're saying, the competitive scene won't last through the end of the year and I certainly won't be playing it.

Doesn't matter what he said they said. On the cusp of expandability like Team Ninja is, money talks more than anything. You just have to speak their language. And while I don't agree with you about the sit-down needing SE removed, something needs to be done.

In my opinion, what needs to happen, is there needs to be a value for minimum SE time that guarantees something else that's not a CB. The last thing we need is this game handing out high damage like it's candy. That's what happened with DOA4, except defense did the high damage last time.

 

[Raansu]

No one had a problem with this mechanic in the past. In fact, people cried on how DOA4 didnt give anyone a good launch height which btw affect character tiers.

No people were annoyed that you had to play a stun game and it gave the defender 6+ chances to turn things around if you wanted max height.

This is where i shaked out of the stun and held the sit down stun.
Go to 11:35 mark to see the sit down stun right before mamba loses. Look at my recovery

See I don't agree with that at all. You made a gamble and did a low hold and got smacked with a sit down stun. You should not be allowed SE out of that. You had your chance to avoid it but you decided to throw out a low hold to escape the stun and were punished accordingly. I don't think that situation should have allowed a slow escape, let alone letting you get off a defensive hold at the last minute.

 

[Rikuto]

Just so everyone can understand since some of you are still not getting it, DOAD's Hit Statuses, and the attributes that come with them, DO NOT change DOA5's currents attack stun animations at all. With that said I want to also mention that the majority of DOA5 stuns (with exception of sit down stuns), are the shortest stuns in DOA history since DOA2. With that in mind, that means a good portion of DOA5 stuns are shakable to avoid some launchers, sitdown stuns and CB's.

We know that they don't change the stuns. You seem to think the stun system is greatly reduced though and it isn't.

I have every stun in DOA 5 that I had in DOA 4, and it's now harder to shake off the stun. 3k which causes my sitdown has hefty recovery on it as well, which is the ONLY reason you're able to shake that. You certainly aren't shaking my 3p which allowed me to use kick, now are you? And the thing about 3p? It's not exactly slow.

I do understand that a good portion (Not ALL) of stuns will come from CH or HCH. And although you are successful with an actual hit your opponent still has 1 option to hold. This was similar to DOA2 and DOA3 not to mention that DOA3 had wall bounce that also gave you max launch height. This mechanic was taken away from DOA4 so anyone that played DOA4 ONLY will not understand what I am talking about. Since it was take from DOA4 it forced you to play the stun game more not to mention that you could hold just about whenever. This hurt the game tremendously. I'm trying to bring back the mechanic that not only makes sense to DOA but was also used previously including DOAD!

It was taken away from DOA 4 because DOA 4 had too many stuns. DOA 5 still does. It's better, and the faster characters have certainly been denied quite a bit, but its not anywhere near pre-doa 4 levels.

No one had a problem with this mechanic in the past. In fact, people cried on how DOA4 didnt give anyone a good launch height which btw affect character tiers. Now I do understand that CB's give guaranteed damage once it lands but like i said before and like someone in this thread mentioned, the set ups are NOT guaranteed. This is what forces you to gamble again similar to DOA4. Allen Paris said if you can shake the stun and hold how come i didnt do it? Well i was actually testing it and realized it was actually possible during the event. Although Bryan was preaching to everyone before hand that it was NOT (Which obviously wasn't true).

1. There are still way too many stuns. In a game this stun heavy, there has to be a second line of defense... thus there has to be an element of gambling, albeit in the attackers favor. We would prefer it wasn't that way, but it is and this is the only way it works correctly.

2. The situation is not at all like DOA 4 because the guess is still in the attackers favor. If I see you staggering (and this is visually obvious) I can always opt for a faster attack and take less of your lifebar. You cannot stagger every option I have here. If I want to play riskier, I can molest you with OH's as you come out of the stun because they have a generous active window. This encourages you to either eat the CB (and lose 50%) or throw me, which in turn gets you out of the OH situation but would make the CB do High Counter damage which I daresay could just flatout kill you in tons of situations with this game. But the important thing to note is while I take substantial risk doing that, I could also effectively end the round right there... and nobody is putting a gun to my head and forcing me to do it.

3. Nobody had a problem with it before because counters really hurt before, and people felt they deserved some pretty beefy payout for making it through that net of death. but counters got nerfed and stuns did not, so the payout scale also has to adjust to accommodate that fact.

Another thing that needs to be completely clear is that DOAD's statuses cater to better throw set ups. This means that if you have a throw that changes the positioning of your opponent, it will be much more rewarding with a Counter Throw and Hi-Counter Throw. Lets say a throw leaves you at +5 behind your opponent or by the wall but with CT and HCT it gives you +15 and to add to that, if you hit your opponent within that frame advantage then your launcher will be MAX height. This rewards smart play and set ups.

That's fine, but that isn't just DOAD so I don't know why you're calling it part of this DOAD package. Even DOA 4 which shat all over established setups employed a guaranteed launch for characters like Ayane.

DOAD's attributes also contribute to Offensive and Defensive holds. For example if Jann Lee holds your mid punch and gets a Counter HOLD status, he will obviously have plenty of frame advantage but he also has an oppotunity to launch you with anything but since it was CH status his reward is greater and now Jann lee can actually get a good damaging juggle where as before he only got 6PK =/ (In DOA4). Another example is his dragon gunner (OH). Assuming you are not by a wall jann lee is +24 on the OH but if its HCH then he can attack you to extend the stun and launch immediately and get MAX height(2 chances to stop him). However if you ARE by a wall, then he doesnt have to even extend the stun and still get max height with any of his launchers (1 Chance to stop him).

If he is getting high counter anything, there should be zero chances to stop him.

The thing about the DOAD hit statuses though is that these set ups are planned and strategized and not random. Your opponent can still hold in these situations to play some form of damage control but the opportunities are lowered and like i mentioned, usually only 1 chance to stop it. The odds are in your favor since the hold will only do 40points on average while the juggle usually is closer to 80 if not 100pts depending on your character and Stage Dangerzone.

How can I make you fear anything specific if you fear everything in general? That is what makes it random. And once again, ideally if anything is high-counter there should be zero chances for escaping the followup because a perfect read is a perfect read.

@Erik, I'm not shady.

And the world continues to turn...

Just because i dont agree with some of you %100 does not make me arrogant. There has been some interesting suggestions but some of the suggestions i have heard are bad. I'm also not surprised that TK/Team Ninja also believe that too.

Taking delayed strings out = Not happening
Taking holds out of stun completely = Not Happening
Unshakable Sit down stuns = Not Happening

Its not just me saying it. Its several others and Them. DOAD's hit statuses is the only thing that is up for discussion based off of what they said at E3. Will they do it or not is the real question. I think they should put it back in there.

MASTER

So to reiterate, you are perfectly fine with me sneezing on you to get a stun and taking 40% minimum in open space from pretty much any hit level I choose, making all options equal and nothing specific particularly dangerous to watch out for. And you can't logically defend against this threat of counter-hit either, since, you know, throws are unbreakable and strings are super delayable.

This is the game you want. This is the game you think Team Ninja wants, too.

Okay.

 

[virtuaPAI]

If they improve the neutral game and go back to sit down stuns being unshakeable, then CBs would be guaranteed and you wouldn't have to mess with the stun system at all.

-That is the route Team Ninja should take. Reward better players for landing such moves. If it is such an issue, they can make it so that strikes that cause these types of stuns are heavily punished.

Timeout. 50-55% should be absolute max damage in this game, and that should include a danger zone relaunch

-1/5 to 1/3 do not equal 50-55% percent. But since you mentioned that percentage, I agree, put fear into those who want to play sloppy. Both Doa2 and Doa3 did it, and It is time the game goes back.

 

[Rikuto]

I disagree with the notion of 50-55% being the absolutely maximum... but I don't think they should be the norm either.

1/3 is a small fuckup in a fighting game and its the type of damage you get from the smallest kind of juggle. Any less and it wouldn't even be a juggle. Small fuckups are, of course, the most common.

1/2 is naturally a bigger fuckup when you let something like a CB happen or an environmental re-launch. These are less often, and not the norm. If you get hit by this, you did something to deserve because you failed to pay attention to something.

There are always going to be fuckups of epic proportions though, where the moons align with your opponent getting CB'd with his back to a slope that leads to a cliffhanger. For those kinds of fuckups? Yes, death is absolutely deserved. This is no justice in a man only taking 50% for messing up that badly.

Every "Game" has "Theory". This "Theory" does not need to be the same. Plain and simple.

The defender SHOULD be scared when getting hit. Are you saying that the defender should NOT be scared? Whats the point of attacking then ?

As for counter hits. when you get counter hit, in ANY game, this is because of a mistake YOU made. Some games give you stun, some games give you damage, some games give you higher launch, some games give all three, one of them being VF5FS!

The setups to follow are not guaranteed and the stun system does not change. I've explained this already for people who don't seem to know what we're talking about and people actually criticized me on this. But it seems the concept being proposed is not very well understood.

Even the most out of place fucked up game has its "Theory" I am not implying throwing all logic out the window. In fact, I explained the "Theory" behind the suggested implementation very clearly I think.

You know how I just got done telling everyone how irritated I was that people never bothered actually reading my posts, but liked to continue arguing with me anyway? You just did it again.

it was one page back

http://freestepdodge.com/threads/dead-or-alive-5-e3-build-experience.869/page-11#post-20284

See again, this isn't a difference of opinion between us... you're just not understanding what is being said because you're picking and choosing what you feel like reading. In order for there to be a difference of opinion, we both have to understand the facts first. You don't understand the facts.

Now when you achieve an understanding of Game Theory and unequal options, we can continue this.

 

[AKNova7]

There are always going to be fuckups of epic proportions though, where the moons align with your opponent getting CB'd with his back to a slope that leads to a cliffhanger. For those kinds of fuckups? Yes, death is absolutely deserved. This is no justice in a man only taking 50% for messing up that badly.

Deserved, yes. Entertaining, no. While being a competitive fighting game is the most important, yes, the entertainment value from watching the game is important from a business perspective. Keep in mind, in UMVC 3, they have TOD's, but if you think about it, since you have 3 characters, it's only 33% of your life, and you've seen how those juggles work. I seriously think 33-40% should be the standard of most juggles in DOA without walls. Remember, in a game like DOA has been recently, with no game theory to defend yourself, fuck ups are expected.

With how easy it is to get people in stun and a lack of game theory, this is a good value I believe. Really, I do. The game would still go by pretty fast, especially without a decent neutral game.

 

[OSTCarmine]

I disagree with the notion of 50-55% being the absolutely maximum... but I don't think they should be the norm either.

1/3 is a small fuckup in a fighting game and its the type of damage you get from the smallest kind of juggle. Any less and it wouldn't even be a juggle. Small fuckups are, of course, the most common.

1/2 is naturally a bigger fuckup when you let something like a CB happen or an environmental re-launch. These are less often, and not the norm. If you get hit by this, you did something to deserve because you failed to pay attention to something.

There are always going to be fuckups of epic proportions though, where the moons align with your opponent getting CB'd with his back to a slope that leads to a cliffhanger. For those kinds of fuckups? Yes, death is absolutely deserved. This is no justice in a man only taking 50% for messing up that badly.

lmao. AGREED.
Sirlin is quite a kewl dude, thanks for pointing me in his direction rikuto... i feel so smart right now.
can i make a request for a particular discussion here, since i dont see what im looking for in the forum. lets talk about stun... specifically, and in depth. i wanna know what ppl think about how stun, deepstun and the issue with CB and sitdown stuns are affecting the game, and some suggestions and fixes. somebody mentioned above that the payout for holds has been reduced, but the overall payout for offense has not been re-balanced to reflect this yet (i think it was you Rikuto, though not in my clumsy wording) so i wanna talk about strikes and their properties... indulge me?

 

[AKNova7]

lmao. AGREED.
Sirlin is quite a kewl dude, thanks for pointing me in his direction rikuto... i feel so smart right now.
can i make a request for a particular discussion here, since i dont see what im looking for in the forum. lets talk about stun... specifically, and in depth. i wanna know what ppl think about how stun, deepstun and the issue with CB and sitdown stuns are affecting the game, and some suggestions and fixes. somebody mentioned above that the payout for holds has been reduced, but the overall payout for offense has not been re-balanced to reflect this yet (i think it was you Rikuto, though not in my clumsy wording) so i wanna talk about strikes and their properties... indulge me?

Sitdown Stuns and CB's only exist as a byproduct of the fail of an excuse of a stun system that DOA has in general. What the game should really be is stuns (which aren't stuns, but staggers) on specific moves, and the metagame based around your pokes, your combo starters, your defense, your movement, your strings, and your Counter Holds. Why is part of the game based off fishing out CHs with a degenerative game mechanic such as string delay? Awful.

Also, I hope you read my post above yours when you agreed to him. >> I have a point, you know.