DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability

[virtuaPAI]

Because if those opinions are in the final game, they will lead to 10 man turnouts.

-That is not stating fact, but presenting an opinion. Which is still condescending in its application, that circles right back to the original problem.

 

[Raansu]

At the absolute bare minimum I expect this is be better than a Naruto game.

And even some of those were fun in short spurts.

Hey man ninja storm is actually a pretty solid fighter for it being an anime game.

 

[UnD34D]

-UnD34D the stuff that you mention, I am not arguing about. I totally agree with mostly everything you said. I simply do not See the current build of Doa5 as being Doa4.2 or what have you. Everything I have seen is screaming Doa3.1 to me. The Side stepping, natural combos, normal hit launchers, wake up options, nerfed holds, wall game, frame advantage, back turned advantage, un-holdable stun situations, spacing, guard breaks and frame traps, character individuality and the list goes on. These things make the game far from Doa4, and more 3.1. Doa4 had absolutely nothing..well stuns and holds.

I haven't really looked at the techincal data, like I was saying, I'm just going off what I see in the vids. I did see the SS system was a lot better (in fact Lei Fang looks really mobile), and I saw some guarantees, but thats about all I pinned down from it. If what you're saying is true, than they need to market that. Shit like this is honestly the only reason I'm even giving DOA another shot. Regardless of how good this game can be, the DOA stigma is definitely still there for the rest of the FGC, and all of us offline players have tried to market DOA to the other crowds. Like I said before, I couldn't even get 9 players for a tournament with other well known players there and refusing to play because 4 was such trash. I know we've begged people that'd never touched DOA before to enter just so we had enough people.

 

[DrDogg]

At the absolute bare minimum I expect this is be better than a Naruto game.

And even some of those were fun in short spurts.

Have you played the GCN and Wii Naruto games. They are pretty solid fighters that have enjoyed a better tournament scene than DOA.

-That is not stating fact, but presenting an opinion. Which is still condescending in its application, that circles right back to the original problem.

You have been far more condescending than I have.

DOA has never had a strong competitive scene. That includes 3.1. I only bring up 10-man tournaments because that's what happens when DOA doesn't appeal to a larger player base. You keep harping on 3.1 like it had a 200-man Evo turnout, but it didn't. What you see as a throwback to 3.1, I see as not enough of a change.

If you have an issue with me bringing up the tournament history of the DOA series, toughen up a bit. I could say far worse, and you've done far worse than mention potentially poor tournament attendance.

 

[Berzerk!]

We need to move the baseline up. The game is better than the game that got those low turnouts.

There is also a larger, more aware, more active fighting game tournament scene that the game is entering into. That includes EVO, which had much less awareness and attendance in 2006 when DOA had just been released exclusively on 360.

If the game is of equivalent quality to the e3 build (and there are no signs its actually going backwards) then it will be solid and people will enjoy playing it.

All you really need for a tournament life is for people to play a game. It won't JUST be the insular, just-waking-up-to-the-rest-of-the-tournament-scene DOA community, it will be new players and fighting game players trying the new game, and Virtua Fighter players crossing over.

Myself, I'll be running DOA alongside my VF tournaments and people are interested and excited for the game. SC and VF players will play it. It will be in the end of year major tournaments here.

It might be worth getting practical at this stage and actually starting a thread to map out the schedule of upcoming tournaments and asking the question of the organiser "will you run DOA" and "Can I run DOA at your event"?

Just turning up is the main thing a player can do to support their community. Yes, the game needs to be good for people to want to hang in there, so hang on to your expectations, but there's no reason not to plan a little.

 

[Keylay]

At the absolute bare minimum I expect this is be better than a Naruto game.

And even some of those were fun in short spurts.

Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen (Clash of the Ninja) 1 - 3 was pretty good. Not perfect but I got a lot of enjoyment out of them. I'm a little surprised that there a few tournaments for it still. Nothing too big but I saw one in April that had 25 people enter. Hopefully DOA can do better.

 

[Rikuto]

They were.

I still own the japanese versions 2-3 with a region freeloader for my gamecube.

When they made it so Gaara could actually be guard broken though, it was like ok fuck this shit. Lost all sense of legitimacy with me when they pulled that nonsense.

 

[DrDogg]

If the game is of equivalent quality to the e3 build (and there are no signs its actually going backwards) then it will be solid and people will enjoy playing it.

It has moved backward. You can counter out of the "stumble back" stun. You couldn't before. You can SE out of the sit-down stun. You couldn't before.

Just turning up is the main thing a player can do to support their community. Yes, the game needs to be good for people to want to hang in there, so hang on to your expectations, but there's no reason not to plan a little.

I just looked at the tournament forum on SRK. There are quite a few tournaments dated after 9/25, but only one of them lists DOA5, and it's the smallest of the group.

Even if the game is solid, I'm not going to travel unless I know other people will too. The current lack of tournament support is not helping it, and I'm not going to talk to TOs to get DOA5 at their tournaments when I'm still unsure of how the game will turn out.

It's one thing to be optimistic, but your reasons just aren't convincing (same with VPai's). Saying the game is better than DOA4 isn't enough. Every single major problem that a majority of the FGC had with DOA4 was still readily present as of the E3 build. That's fact.

 

[virtuaPAI]

You have been far more condescending than I have.

-Please show me where I have been condescending to a group of players for not sharing my opinion on this forum. You will not find it. But you have been outed more than once.

DOA has never had a strong competitive scene. That includes 3.1. I only bring up 10-man tournaments because that's what happens when DOA doesn't appeal to a larger player base. You keep harping on 3.1 like it had a 200-man Evo turnout, but it didn't. What you see as a throwback to 3.1, I see as not enough of a change.

-This do not Change the fact that Doa3.1 was a solid game. You not playing it do not change the fact that Doa3.1 was a solid game. It do not change the fact that Doa3.1 is known in the FGC as being the most viable and solid game in the series. It did not even hurt that two top TK Players of the time(JOP and Eddy Pistons) that Loathe Doa, respected Doa3.1. So in all respect, why would I be so bent up over your opinion? I never was, and never did. It was you and your "if you were the ones creating this game I would never play it" ,"go have fun with your ten man tournaments" mentality. No one here except you have been so negative about the game, and forcing your disdain so damn much. Rikutu who is blunt as hell had more praise than you, and didnt resort to your behavior.

If you have an issue with me bringing up the tournament history of the DOA series, toughen up a bit. I could say far worse, and you've done far worse than mention potentially poor tournament attendance.

-I swear I am in the twilight zone. Stop straw manning me. You know very well the issue is based on your condescending behavior.

-LMFAO "Doa4 problems". Doa4 in its entirety was a problem. Where would anyone start. Pick something and it would be a flaw. Saying The build has "Doa4 problems" is not helping anything. It is a blanket statement and it is quite vague. Hearing this would automatically give people the impression that Doa5 will be trash.

 

[UnD34D]

-This do not Change the fact that Doa3.1 was a solid game. You not playing it do not change the fact that Doa3.1 was a solid game. It do not change the fact that Doa3.1 is known in the FGC as being the most viable and solid game in the series. It did not even hurt that two top TK Players of the time(JOP and Eddy Pistons) that Loathe Doa, respected Doa3.1. So in all respect, why would I be so bent up over your opinion? I never was, and never did. It was you and your "if you were the ones creating this game I would never play it" ,"go have fun with your ten man tournaments" mentality. No one here except you have been so negative about the game, and forcing your disdain so damn much. Rikutu who is blunt as hell had more praise than you, and didnt resort to your behavior.

Yeah JOP and Eddie Pistons gave it props, as well as Tom Brady pushing it pretty hardcore, but even so, most of the FGC has never seen, heard, or cared about DoA 3.1. Most have heard "Oh DoA 3.1 was good" but thats all they've heard, they don't actually give a fuck. Once again Dr. Dogg is right in my opinion, we can't just push this game on TO's like we did with DoA4. Once it comes out, if its good, we have a community consisting of more than just you, Sorwah, and master, and then like 40 fanboys who won't travel, then push it to them, but until then, I think DoA4 did to much damage to our reputation.

 

[Skilletor]

I'd be willing to guess that the only thing the majority of the FGC knows about DoA3.1 is that Hayate's cartwheel is broke as fuck.

 

[virtuaPAI]

-UnD34D Im really not getting your point here. The debate is based on what a solid fighter is, do/would Doa5 fit that criteria. You yourself view doa3.1 as a solid fighter. Doa5 share many if not all of its roots of 3.1. Lets say the game is 3.1 heavy, would that not be a criteria of a solid fighter? If so, You would not be agreeing with Drdogg, because he do not believe the changes implemented would qualify Doa5 as a solid fighter.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I'd be willing to guess that the only thing the majority of the FGC knows about DoA3.1 is that Hayate's cartwheel is broke as fuck.

I'd be shocked if they even knew that.

I remember having a convo with someone and they literally replied "Isn't that the game where you just push one button to counter everything?"...

 

[UnD34D]

-UnD34D Im really not getting your point here. The debate is based on what a solid fighter is, do/would Doa5 fit that criteria? You yourself view doa3.1 as a solid fighter. Doa5 share many if not all of its roots of 3.1. Lets say the game is 3.1 heavy, would that not be a criteria of a solid fighter? If so, You would not be agreeing with Drdogg, because he do not believe the changes implemented would qualify Doa as a solid fighter.

If DoA5 is 3.1 heavy, yeah, I would say it is a solid fighter (unless certain DoA4 qualities stay in the game.) My point is simply that the game isn't out yet, there just isn't a final build. I think if DoA5 has 3.1 roots strongly represented in the game, its possible to not only revive the scene but make it an ACTUAL scene for the first time in its career. The problem is that DoA4 was such a piece of shit game that we can't push it to TO's UNTIL the final build is presented because the possibility of them taking away anything solid in the game is already a possibility. I don't exactly know what Dr. Dogg is refrencing when he says solid stuff the game had from the alpha build was taken away in the next build, but if they did that, whats to say they won't keep taking stuff out?

 

[virtuaPAI]

If DoA5 is 3.1 heavy, yeah, I would say it is a solid fighter (unless certain DoA4 qualities stay in the game.) My point is simply that the game isn't out yet, there just isn't a final build. I think if DoA5 has 3.1 roots strongly represented in the game, its possible to not only revive the scene but make it an ACTUAL scene for the first time in its career. The problem is that DoA4 was such a piece of shit game that we can't push it to TO's UNTIL the final build is presented because the possibility of them taking away anything solid in the game is already a possibility. I don't exactly know what Dr. Dogg is refrencing when he says solid stuff the game had from the alpha build was taken away in the next build, but if they did that, whats to say they won't keep taking stuff out?

-I cannot say for sure that Doa5 would not go through changes that would make it like Doa4. What I do know, significant strides were made where the game is a lot more 3.1 than it would ever be 4.1. If the game continue down this road, like you, I can see a scene for the game. I am not asking anyone to push a game that would be dead on arrival, but to wait for the actual release before we start telling people to enjoy their 10 man tournies. Right now they are making balance changes, for the stuff that changed on the negative side(two stuns changing), other things could have been implemented for the betterment of the game. I'm going to wait and see before I write the game off.

 

[UnD34D]

-I cannot say for sure that Doa5 would not go through changes that would make it like Doa4. What I do know, significant strides were made where the game is a lot more 3.1 than it would ever be 4.1. If the game continue down this road, like you, I can see a scene for the game. I am not asking anyone to push a game that would be dead on arrival, but to wait for the actual release before we start telling people to enjoy their 10 man tournies.

I agree, I'm pretty indifferent, I say it can go either way, but if we want a thriving scene the game has to be good, and we gotta market the fuck out of it. DoA4, the garbage it was, got pushed hard and we had a spotlight, and it probably hurt the scene in the competitive market because everyone got to see trash. I mean look at the shit they broadcasted. Who was that one female Ayane player? She was called a pro and all she did was mash ppkkk. I'm sure we looked real professional then.

 

[Berzerk!]

It has moved backward. You can counter out of the "stumble back" stun. You couldn't before. You can SE out of the sit-down stun. You couldn't before.

A good point to give in feedback, but it doesn't mean the overall final balance of the game will not be tournament worthy. This is why I said the discussion around these things needs to be a nuanced one, as there are a number of degrees of change before you call any one example a dealbreaker on the game overall.

That's not to say I don't agree with you on those mechanics being more desirable as described, but we don't know how easily X stun can be SE'd, or if it will remain that way at all. If it is, attacker will still be at advantage, defender will be unlikely to counter let alone correctly, etc. Anyway, those fine details can be discussed in a feedback thread.
[/quote]

I just looked at the tournament forum on SRK. There are quite a few tournaments dated after 9/25, but only one of them lists DOA5, and it's the smallest of the group.

Even if the game is solid, I'm not going to travel unless I know other people will too. The current lack of tournament support is not helping it, and I'm not going to talk to TOs to get DOA5 at their tournaments when I'm still unsure of how the game will turn out.

It's one thing to be optimistic, but your reasons just aren't convincing (same with VPai's). Saying the game is better than DOA4 isn't enough. Every single major problem that a majority of the FGC had with DOA4 was still readily present as of the E3 build. That's fact.

The wait and see thing brings us into a bit of a chicken and egg scenario... ok, we don't know quite how good the final game is. But isn't it the case that we'll only REALLY know until after it's been played at tournament level?

And if we don't plan to give it a chance at tournaments in its early life, how is it we will know, and how will anyone else really know, the quality of the game as a tournament proposition?

You really just have to back it and see how you go. I'm with you, if noone plays, I've still got VF and a number of other games. But there is good reason to at least tentatively plan for the game at events, and for players in our community to put their best foot forward as attendees or volunteer organisers and give the game a chance.

What's in it for TO's scheduling an untested new game? Well, it attracts completely new players to their event, it gives veterans something fresh to play and try - all very good reasons to run a new game regardless of quality (look at SFxT, it turned out to be terrible, but it got its fair run). If quality turns out to be poor, then let it shake out. But lets not kill this thing before its hatched.

Team Ninja will be doing something to help - by having it present at Super Battle Opera, the FGC will have an opportunity to be exposed to the game at a major core event. I hope they continue this, and I think as the exposure and interest from gamers grows closer to release, events will think about adding it to their schedules.

We as a community and individuals who like this game should be ready to put our best foot forward. The game will be good enough and more importantly popular enough, to get a start. It's overall quality and player takeup over the long term is indeed a fair, but somewhat separate question.

 

[d3v]

Another thing that turned him off is the lack of a throw breaking system. The fact that all command grabs are inescapable is laughable. DOA must be the only fighting game that doesn't have a real throw breaking system.

Actually, there are a few of us 2D guys who like unbreakable throws. Most of the classics didn't need throw breaking (SFII, Marvel series).

 

[MasterHavik]

What are the problems still in DOA 5?

 

[Baron West]

Actually, there are a few of us 2D guys who like unbreakable throws. Most of the classics didn't need throw breaking (SFII, Marvel series).

All the classic 2-D Capcom marvel fighters starting from X-men Cota allowed you to tech throws though.