Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I'm not taking DOA 4 seriously either. If I was, I'd be playing DOA 4.
So obviously something is different here.
Dead or Alive 5: Remaining Issues
- Thread starter AKNova7
- Start date
I'm not taking DOA 4 seriously either. If I was, I'd be playing DOA 4.
So obviously something is different here.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
oh you will notice them. the thread topics and comments regarding the stuff that still requires fixing in DOA may lead you to believe that its the same old song... its not. DOA5 is a different beast altogether. both online and offline DOA players are going to get a very fresh game, and its going to mould its players well. turn them into proper fighters. the grapplers in the game will sodomize you if you spam holds or turtle too much, the strikers are faster than ever forcing you to pay attention to your spacing, tricky/new characters like Lisa/VF-characters will force out-of-the-box thinking and then you get people like Bayman who just break the mold altogether. i dont know if you guys can tell, but im feeling VERY VERY positive about DOA5
how does Bayman break the mold?
Doug Nguyen
Well-Known Member
Sounds good then. Seems like all the characters are all getting something special about them. I play as kasumi so it would be even better if her strikes were faster like you said.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
apart from the VF characters he is the only character i have seen thusfar that can pretty much screw the stun system and still keep massive advantage. you should ask Rikuto though, he knows way more than me about Bayman. this is what i DO know.
1| More guaranteed setups for ground throws, Bayman keeps pressure up like nobody's business.
2| A collection of varied and highly effective OH, a Parry, Adv Holds
3| A dedicated SS that avoids highs and has a built-in OH
i may have exaggerated by saying "break" the mold, but Bayman is definitely on a different plane this time around. not because of himself really, since he had most of these abilities in 4 (my earliest reliable reference), but because of what the system allows him to do now.
EDIT - ok i have reread my earlier post... i was maybe a bit tipsy at the time of writing that lol. im just so super exited is all
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Well basically Bayman plays this like...
He is slow as fuck, and has poor "get in". All of his long range attacks can be stopped by any of the ninjas, for example. Whether by evasion and whiff punishment (backspinning/flipping with ayane) Long range sniping (hayabusa/hayate) or just plain speed (kasumi).
Bayman's 3k is, despite its lack of safety and speed, his best move from range as it causes an unholdable sitdown stun. and if he gets just one of those on CH from range, he can forego the CB setup and get a minor launch, probably taking around 20-25% guaranteed which is quite respectable for that kind of hit.
If you're capable of overcoming the "ninja barrier" at range, you can have a very prominent long range 3k game with him. Otherwise, you have to get in close... very close. Breathing down your opponents neck close.
The strategy is to get in their face and try to bait out a counter-hit from 3p. 3p is a mid around 14 frames, and while it is holdable it is a deep enough stun that you can followup with 3k with no fear of your opponent shaking the stun. The reason this strategy is so prominent is because 3p is actually part of a string, 3pp6kp, and its variants. So what you're actually doing with it is applying faux pressure by tapping 3p, cancel, 3p. If they catch onto that, you start using minor delays and just finishing the string to fuck with them. It's simple, and it works.
Assuming you do get the counter-hit off of 3p though, you have them in a 50/50 immediately, although there is a third douchebag option I will go into later. The logical options are 3k, or his back breaker.
3k is the more damaging option because it leads to a CB, then a full height launch into a fairly decent juggle that I abused on both swoozie and mystik at IPL quite regularly. it has about a 50% lifebar damage potential in open space against lightweight opponents, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it could reach 75% or more on either a slope or a special dangerzone. This is, of course, much more rare and I could not do this in an actual match as of E3.
The back breaker is what you use when they start fearing 3k for the obvious damage it puts out. If they start countering 3k, you hit them with the back breaker which does 105 damage by itself. It has no enviromental damage or followups I'm aware of, though I imagine its possible to get a guaranteed knee drop afterwards... i had no way of testing sadly. Combined with the original 3p, the back breaker, and possibly a knee drop, you're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% lifebar, probably a bit on the lower end. This is definitely the less painful option, but obviously its still painful.
The douchebag option is ignoring the straight 50/50 and going for a DDT. The way this is performed is, right after you stun with 3p you time your DDT (which is around 22-24 frames) so that it lands on your opponent just as they are leaving the stun. This is an offensive hold so if they come out of the stun wailing at you with strikes, the damage will be boosted up to high-counter status. Most people will be scouting for 3k here, so they wont be trying to scout for a DDT. They may even toss out a hold if they see movement at all, thinking its a 3k, and this will boost the damage on your DDT significantly.
If you complete the entire DDT on normal, you're getting 115 damage from it on top of the 3p you already did. If you get counter or high-counter... well, you're getting more. It hurts. In fact a back breaker only does 105 damage on high-counter. The DDT on normal is already beating that by 10 points. Ah, but the reason its a douchebag move is because even if your opponent breaks the hold after you've taken a portion of his lifebar, you're left at substantial advantage which means you can keep up your offense.... and you're still sitting there, right in their face and not having to play the get-in game.
While its not mathematically the best option to use in that situation, it is highly damaging and a very good tool for beating someone who doesn't know how to deal with Bayman as it guarantees you will stay in their face.
Backing off from the mixup game for a moment, Bayman also has two attacks now, 236k and 66P+K.
236k is from DOA 4/D and has been altered in such a way that it is no longer unsafe, but rather it is 20-24 frame'ish mid kick, medium ranged guard break that gives +6 on block. This is move is ideal for responding with after you've blocked an attack that has pushed you back and you're trying to get in.
66P+K is a new high attack around 21-23 or so frames in length (remembering vaguely), and gives a unique guard break that is +9 on block. I was actually having trouble implementing this move into my game, but thats simply because it's a slow, short range, linear high attack and these things are usually pretty bad when put together. Considering the absolutely stupid amount of frame advantage it gives, I can and will be finding applications for this though. It's definitely a balanced and solid tool, just haven't created a battle plan for it yet.
Basically, Bayman is slow, highly damaging, and not OP. He has everything he needs within reason to win, and can laugh at the stun game. Every other character should ideally be able to do the exact same thing within their own parameters.
He is slow as fuck, and has poor "get in". All of his long range attacks can be stopped by any of the ninjas, for example. Whether by evasion and whiff punishment (backspinning/flipping with ayane) Long range sniping (hayabusa/hayate) or just plain speed (kasumi).
Bayman's 3k is, despite its lack of safety and speed, his best move from range as it causes an unholdable sitdown stun. and if he gets just one of those on CH from range, he can forego the CB setup and get a minor launch, probably taking around 20-25% guaranteed which is quite respectable for that kind of hit.
If you're capable of overcoming the "ninja barrier" at range, you can have a very prominent long range 3k game with him. Otherwise, you have to get in close... very close. Breathing down your opponents neck close.
The strategy is to get in their face and try to bait out a counter-hit from 3p. 3p is a mid around 14 frames, and while it is holdable it is a deep enough stun that you can followup with 3k with no fear of your opponent shaking the stun. The reason this strategy is so prominent is because 3p is actually part of a string, 3pp6kp, and its variants. So what you're actually doing with it is applying faux pressure by tapping 3p, cancel, 3p. If they catch onto that, you start using minor delays and just finishing the string to fuck with them. It's simple, and it works.
Assuming you do get the counter-hit off of 3p though, you have them in a 50/50 immediately, although there is a third douchebag option I will go into later. The logical options are 3k, or his back breaker.
3k is the more damaging option because it leads to a CB, then a full height launch into a fairly decent juggle that I abused on both swoozie and mystik at IPL quite regularly. it has about a 50% lifebar damage potential in open space against lightweight opponents, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it could reach 75% or more on either a slope or a special dangerzone. This is, of course, much more rare and I could not do this in an actual match as of E3.
The back breaker is what you use when they start fearing 3k for the obvious damage it puts out. If they start countering 3k, you hit them with the back breaker which does 105 damage by itself. It has no enviromental damage or followups I'm aware of, though I imagine its possible to get a guaranteed knee drop afterwards... i had no way of testing sadly. Combined with the original 3p, the back breaker, and possibly a knee drop, you're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% lifebar, probably a bit on the lower end. This is definitely the less painful option, but obviously its still painful.
The douchebag option is ignoring the straight 50/50 and going for a DDT. The way this is performed is, right after you stun with 3p you time your DDT (which is around 22-24 frames) so that it lands on your opponent just as they are leaving the stun. This is an offensive hold so if they come out of the stun wailing at you with strikes, the damage will be boosted up to high-counter status. Most people will be scouting for 3k here, so they wont be trying to scout for a DDT. They may even toss out a hold if they see movement at all, thinking its a 3k, and this will boost the damage on your DDT significantly.
If you complete the entire DDT on normal, you're getting 115 damage from it on top of the 3p you already did. If you get counter or high-counter... well, you're getting more. It hurts. In fact a back breaker only does 105 damage on high-counter. The DDT on normal is already beating that by 10 points. Ah, but the reason its a douchebag move is because even if your opponent breaks the hold after you've taken a portion of his lifebar, you're left at substantial advantage which means you can keep up your offense.... and you're still sitting there, right in their face and not having to play the get-in game.
While its not mathematically the best option to use in that situation, it is highly damaging and a very good tool for beating someone who doesn't know how to deal with Bayman as it guarantees you will stay in their face.
Backing off from the mixup game for a moment, Bayman also has two attacks now, 236k and 66P+K.
236k is from DOA 4/D and has been altered in such a way that it is no longer unsafe, but rather it is 20-24 frame'ish mid kick, medium ranged guard break that gives +6 on block. This is move is ideal for responding with after you've blocked an attack that has pushed you back and you're trying to get in.
66P+K is a new high attack around 21-23 or so frames in length (remembering vaguely), and gives a unique guard break that is +9 on block. I was actually having trouble implementing this move into my game, but thats simply because it's a slow, short range, linear high attack and these things are usually pretty bad when put together. Considering the absolutely stupid amount of frame advantage it gives, I can and will be finding applications for this though. It's definitely a balanced and solid tool, just haven't created a battle plan for it yet.
Basically, Bayman is slow, highly damaging, and not OP. He has everything he needs within reason to win, and can laugh at the stun game. Every other character should ideally be able to do the exact same thing within their own parameters.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
which is what i was saying lol
thanks,over half the stuff you said went over my head but thanks nun the less
MajesticBlue
Active Member
Does Bayman still have qcfK as a PP string ender? (PP6K?) Having the option to jab into a mid kick with that kind of frame adavantge is always fun. I wonder if the recovery will be fast enough to use it as a wall carry with options as well.
With good plus frame moves he is gonna be like Dragunov......minus the busted hitboxes.
With good plus frame moves he is gonna be like Dragunov......minus the busted hitboxes.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
No, that string was removed.
You have pretty good foresight though, might just make a half decent bayman player. When I went to E3 it was the very first string I was looking for as the pressure would have been absolutely crazy coming off of a high jab string.
That said, it would have obviously been REALLY good, and he's already bonkers as it is. I can't really complain that they removed the string.
I will be looking into potentially using 236k as a "late" whiff punishment move though. Obviously you can put someones back to a ledge and keep them frame trapped between 66P+K and 236k for laughs as well. 66P+K may or may not track in the final build, but 236k is full circular. They ain't going nowhere.
They removed pp4pp as well, and kept 214pp. Not sure why really, but it isn't hurting him much and 3pp6kp has vastly improved relaunch properties on it now.
Reduced options in some cases, but the options are so much better its not even funny.
MajesticBlue
Active Member
Dang. That makes me sad. PP6K was amazing.
I see his wall game breaking down exactly like Dragunov. You get them to the wall and keep them guessing. Either you get the splat and a combo or lock them down good. If they can't wake up kick off the wall now there really isn't a reason to go for much else.
I see his wall game breaking down exactly like Dragunov. You get them to the wall and keep them guessing. Either you get the splat and a combo or lock them down good. If they can't wake up kick off the wall now there really isn't a reason to go for much else.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
No no, pp6k was not amazing.
In fact it was horrible. That attack was a guard break that was actually throw punishable. Words can't even describe how bad that move was. I still have trouble comprehending who made it so bad and why.
But Bayman's entire DOA 4 game was just like that... Team Ninja gave me all of these tools and made me think they were useful. And they lied.
But now they ARE useful, and I accept the apology 100%. Shimbori-san is fully welcome to date my sister and attend family BBQ's.
In fact it was horrible. That attack was a guard break that was actually throw punishable. Words can't even describe how bad that move was. I still have trouble comprehending who made it so bad and why.
But Bayman's entire DOA 4 game was just like that... Team Ninja gave me all of these tools and made me think they were useful. And they lied.
But now they ARE useful, and I accept the apology 100%. Shimbori-san is fully welcome to date my sister and attend family BBQ's.
MajesticBlue
Active Member
In DoaD it gave the same frame trap as it does in 5. It might have been more like +9 though. I can't remember the exact number.
Edit: PP6K is plus 9 on block. Gonna miss it.
Sadly DoaD might as well not count though.
Edit: PP6K is plus 9 on block. Gonna miss it.
Sadly DoaD might as well not count though.
MajesticBlue
Active Member
Any attack that leaves your opponent at a disadvantage on block mostly. So when I use the term plus 9 it means that the defender has 9 frames where they can't input anything.(So whatever option I go for will come out 9 frames faster then whatever the defender can do.) Depending on the nature of the attack you can still hold out of the disadvantage. Also some disadvantage can be reduced via SE.
You really can use any tool that gives you frame advantage as a trap though.
You really can use any tool that gives you frame advantage as a trap though.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Of course its only really a GOOD frame trap if you can loop it with something else that gives advantage, thus resetting the trap.
The best frame traps usually only have one option that gets the defender out, and they are usually very high risk to use and not immediately apparent to someone experiencing the trap for the first time.
Example: See anything that stupid bitch Viola does in SCV.
PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
aww...but Viola is so flashy and kewl. lol Poor Viola.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Viola can DIAF.