The Current State of 3D Fighters

[Kohlrak]

I think the trick with 2d fighters has everything to do with the fact that, since they're not aiming for realism, and since spacing, as opposed to space itself, is the issue, they don't NEED as many button presses for simple things. Look at street fighter: 9 punches, 9 kicks, but the range and features are entirely predictable. Your kicks are at kicking range, punches at punching range, and it's the same for when you're jumping or squatting. Other than that, you have a handful of "special moves" which are character specific and very gimmicky so they're easier to remember. Moreover, many characters are pure plug-n-play, with minor differences (Ken, Ryu, etc). Now, look at Smash bros. What are the controls? Do these games have fancy setups? Nope, you're instantly on stun when you get hit, and you get out of stun when the string ends. Granted, 2d fighters have much, much harder combos, which is something that i like about 3d fighters. Unfortunately, 3d fighters have alot more moves with more dynamics to them. Now in DoA, the character, given the controls, can have 24 punches (11 directions [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 46, 236, 214, 66, 33] + P and P+K), 24 kicks (directions + K and H+K), holds, and 23 throws (i'm not sure whether it hurts more or helps more that we saturate). On top of that, we have special quirky moves like offensive holds, expert holds, sabaki, special movements (marie's jump or christie's sidestep), and that's just the first move of a string. Worse yet, these all have ranges and speeds that aren't predictable, like LP, MP, and HP are in street fighter. And it gets better, because we don't know what they are, our opponent doesn't either, which means we don't know which ones we can rely on to come out, so we come up with complex strategies, especially since simply hitting your target isn't good enough. The new player has to go through each possible combination, memorize all the information for their character, then go get wrecked by other characters hoping to find a pattern to fighting against them without going through the 80+ step process with every character in the game. And what does one get when asking for help? Told all the information, or how to find it on their own (which usually isn't specific enough), or beaten mercilessly in a match, etc. You know what sucks the most about that? Everyone who's trying to teach and learn actually thinks that's the best way to do it and are doing it with honest and good intentions.

All that said, invite your friend over and convince him to play with you. Worse yet, if he hasn't had a fighter before to hear all the smack talk about 3d fighters (or DoA), you're going to have a hard enough time teaching him the basics of a 2d fighter, let alone convincing teaching him a 3d fighter before he's bored out of his wits. Tekken is only slightly better than this, and i don't even know how to tackle VF, because i'm screwing up bad in command training and i don't have a clue what i'm doing wrong. Oh, and for kicks, i code in x86 assembly, and i find this more challenging.

I may sound like i'm bashing, but there are alot of good points to 3d fighters. Unfortunately, most people aren't willing to invest that deep just to figure out what we mean. You can bet that anyone who's remotely competent either subconsciously came up with solutions to this organization mess or spent a long time doing it. 3d fighter fans like us need to work on trying to simplify the process before the devs are forced to simplify the game.

 

[d3v]

Street Fighter has 12 types of punches and kicks since you need to factor in both far and close standing normals, and that's not factoring in command normals.

That said, I get your point, for the most part, these are more intuitive since they're grouped by strength. The only 3D fighter that does something close to this is Soul Calibur with its two kinds of slashes.

 

[Matt Ponton]

@d3v not arguing with you, just bolstering your argument. SF also has 6 crouching attacks, 12 jumping attacks (sometimes differing between type of jump), plus whatever special normals, special attacks, supers, and ultras (and some characters have multiple sets like Gen).

 

[Kohlrak]

Street Fighter has 12 types of punches and kicks since you need to factor in both far and close standing normals, and that's not factoring in command normals.

That said, I get your point, for the most part, these are more intuitive since they're grouped by strength. The only 3D fighter that does something close to this is Soul Calibur with its two kinds of slashes.

@d3v not arguing with you, just bolstering your argument. SF also has 6 crouching attacks, 12 jumping attacks (sometimes differing between type of jump), plus whatever special normals, special attacks, supers, and ultras (and some characters have multiple sets like Gen).

The supers and ultras are basically annoying special attacks. 1 throw per character, as well. But, therein lies the problem. I've been trying my best to find "patterns," but to no avail (i even started a thread that died quickly, mainly because the patterns aren't reliable enough). I've tried working on a "work with bare basics then work your way up" which was suggested by many of the people who've studied the game to death (jab, fastest mid, low crush, block, holds, and most damaging throw), but that method is just a recipe for getting your rear end kicked badly if you make even one mistake (you're gonna end up stunned by an unblockable, guard break, or throw [because you really can't react without offline casuals which'd teach you using another method anyway], then comboed to death, which even the computer is smart enough to do). I tried figuring out how others learned how to play the game and got better, but that goes out the window quick when you are stuck practicing either online or against the CPU (that method does work really well, though, but it requires proper feedback, which is hard to get without a coach). Then, of course, i can't forget to mention the tutorial that has you practice what you've learned against an opponent where it's hard enough to get off what you learned, but trying to try out holds on a computer who only wants to throw is not helping (and don't get me started on the improper feedback for when you time something wrong [you can't tell whether you're too early or too late for the trips lesson, for example]). We do have the videos and training modes which give us alot of information, but then we run into information overload, without any viable way of practicing what we know to know if we're doing it right in between. Right now i'm thinking the only reasonably intelligent method of handling this is a training mode that controls what controls are available during a particular lesson to try to keep not only the AI in check, but also the player (however, this is only viable for 1 character, and there's no real character who has EVERYTHING [which is why hitomi was used in most of the tutorial, but not all of it]). But this is DoA. Tekken is a whole other ball game, but not without it's issues. VF just has be completely lost.

Not to say that anyone can be competitive with 2d fighters, but they are easier to get to a casual, rough-and-tumble level necessary to have fun. When i'm playing DoA, i'm too busy trying to figure out why my stuff didn't work, rather than what my opponent is doing.

(I can tell from videos, though, that there ends up coming a time when that learning curve [for DoA] starts to level off quite a bit and goes from a 87.429 degree curve to a 10 degree curve, then shoots up to a 60 degree curve, then it goes down to 5 degrees.)

 

[d3v]

@d3v not arguing with you, just bolstering your argument. SF also has 6 crouching attacks, 12 jumping attacks (sometimes differing between type of jump), plus whatever special normals, special attacks, supers, and ultras (and some characters have multiple sets like Gen).

Actually, upon recounting, it's 15 punches and 15 kicks counting neutral jump and forward/backwards jump, so 30 different normals, not counting command normals.

That said, the division betwwen light, medium and hard makes handling all these normals easier due to chunking.

 

[Rikuto]

Well upon doing MY own recount I found there to be 23 punches and 23 kicks.

I feel no need to supply any evidence of these findings.

 

[d3v]

Wait, where are you getting the 16 extra normals (PM me if we're already too far off topic)?

 

[Kohlrak]

Wait, where are you getting the 16 extra normals (PM me if we're already too far off topic)?

Ok....

Ok, we have moving vs not moving (2 [-(2*3) since you cannot move crouched]); standing, crounching, or jumping (3); then we have L, M, H (3); then we have P or K(2). 2^2*3^2-(2*3), for 27 strikes. I can't remember if the moving while not jumping is consistent or not (so it could be smaller).

The funny thing is, the difference between these moves is isignficant enough that it matters very little how many there really are. The easy mindset is, if you're doing things, and what you expected to happen was significantly different (like some HKs double hit), you can remember that (but you don't have to remember that to fight against that character unless he sucks with the controls).

 

[d3v]

Ok....

Ok, we have moving vs not moving (2 [-(2*3) since you cannot move crouched]); standing, crounching, or jumping (3); then we have L, M, H (3); then we have P or K(2). 2^2*3^2-(2*3), for 27 strikes. I can't remember if the moving while not jumping is consistent or not (so it could be smaller).

The funny thing is, the difference between these moves is isignficant enough that it matters very little how many there really are. The easy mindset is, if you're doing things, and what you expected to happen was significantly different (like some HKs double hit), you can remember that (but you don't have to remember that to fight against that character unless he sucks with the controls).

Since we're on this subject now.

Spoiler

1. far standing LP
2. far standing MP
   
3. far standing HP
   
4. far standing LK
   
5. far standing MK
   
6. far standing HK
   
7. close standing LP
8. close standing MP
   
9. close standing HP
   
10. close standing LK
    
11. close standing MK
    
12. close standing HK
    
13. crouching LP
14. crouching MP
    
15. crouching HP
    
16. crouching LK
    
17. crouching MK
    
18. crouching HK
    
19. neutral jump LP
20. neutral jump MP
    
21. neutral jump HP
    
22. neutral jump LK
    
23. neutral jump MK
    
24. neutral jump HP
    
25. forward/backward jump LP
    
26. forward/backward jump MP
    
27. forward/backward jump HP
    
28. forward/backward jump LK
    
29. forward/backward jump MK
    
30. forward/backward jump HK

Again, not counting command normals.

But we're really off topic now since the point of this was that categorizing them by strength, instead of either a) no categorizing at all (VF, DOA) or b) using an arbitrary categorization that gives little indication of what they mean in game (i.e. Tekken's left/right system) helps people "chunk" these attacks and remember them more easily.

Also, the difference between different versions is greater than you think. But again, the categorization allows people to easily recall them. A fast normal with little recovery is either an LP or LK. One that tends to reach far is either MP or MK and one that knocks down or at least knocks back hard, is an HP or HK.

 

[crapoZK]

1 throw per character, as well.

2 throws per character* (Don't forget )

 

[quash]

I don't know if 3D fighters should implement the ideas of 2D fighters. I play 3D fighters because of their differences from 2D.

I just want to make it clear that I am in no way advocating for fireballs or dragon punches in 3D.

That being said, I still think there is a good deal 3D fighters can learn from their 2D brethren. Namely in creating a long range game that acts as more than a segue to the mid/close range game. In a game like DOA, any time both players end up at opposite ends of the stage, you're not really thinking about getting in or out of a certain range as much as you are about putting yourself in a good position that will allow you to either start the offensive again or call out whatever move your opponent may do.

This is why in VF and (especially) Tekken, there's so much emphasis placed on knowing how to retreat from close range. Is the current situation not in your favor? Duck out and try again.

Rikuto was right in saying that Soul Calibur was the one 3D fighter that made an honest effort to change that, though I would still argue that even the best SC game has a laughable close range game compared to any other 3DF. The goal should be to get both aspects right.

The thing that I feel holds 3DF back today is that they do not even attempt to fix this, rather they ignore it and just have you play the close range game all the time (notice how backdashes are becoming more risky in 3DF). Which is, again, the strength of the 3D subgenre, so it does make sense in a way to focus on that. It is also, however, the safe way to make a game, and I think Sega in particular is seeing that come home to roost right now.

The situation is particularly dire because, as I will explain in an article soon, 2D fighters have successfully implemented the best things about 3D fighters (reverse nitaku and movement options), whereas 3D fighters are still stuck in the past, refining what they do best while ignoring the things they do not do at all.

 

[Kohlrak]

I just want to make it clear that I am in no way advocating for fireballs or dragon punches in 3D.

That being said, I still think there is a good deal 3D fighters can learn from their 2D brethren. Namely in creating a long range game that acts as more than a segue to the mid/close range game. In a game like DOA, any time both players end up at opposite ends of the stage, you're not really thinking about getting in or out of a certain range as much as you are about putting yourself in a good position that will allow you to either start the offensive again or call out whatever move your opponent may do.

This is why in VF and (especially) Tekken, there's so much emphasis placed on knowing how to retreat from close range. Is the current situation not in your favor? Duck out and try again.

Rikuto was right in saying that Soul Calibur was the one 3D fighter that made an honest effort to change that, though I would still argue that even the best SC game has a laughable close range game compared to any other 3DF. The goal should be to get both aspects right.

The thing that I feel holds 3DF back today is that they do not even attempt to fix this, rather they ignore it and just have you play the close range game all the time (notice how backdashes are becoming more risky in 3DF). Which is, again, the strength of the 3D subgenre, so it does make sense in a way to focus on that. It is also, however, the safe way to make a game, and I think Sega in particular is seeing that come home to roost right now.

The situation is particularly dire because, as I will explain in an article soon, 2D fighters have successfully implemented the best things about 3D fighters (reverse nitaku and movement options), whereas 3D fighters are still stuck in the past, refining what they do best while ignoring the things they do not do at all.

But this is how real fighting is, though. However, this isn't as much of a problem with real fighting, as all that dancing makes you slow and tired as a consequence. Watching a 3d fighter is a ground game (and some realistic gravity) away from watching UFC or something like that. The problem for 3d fighters, i think, is that the only thing separating the learning process is exercise, pain, and technique (characters in fighting games have really, really bad technique, hell Hitomi slouches).