Your General Complaints about DoA and Other Fighting Games?

[KasumiLover]

All the inputs in DoA have much lower leniency compared to the inputs.... all except throws.... but this only applies to the initial throw.... if its a multipart throw then the leniency of those very same inputs can become character specific.... for example Hayate's iput for his combo throw is less lenient than Tina's input in her Combo Throw....
Its a big part of why I play one over the other.... or I just pick Tina if I get exhausted.
Hayabusa's is the hardest one for me.

Strikes must have less leniency than throws, because the throws have much more forgiving input feel than the strikes do.

 

[Lulu]

The moment when these users still believe execution is about making others feel good when it was clearly made intentional in character design and purpose made.

Still waiting so what's it gonna be? PS4? still need enlightenment on why I have no clue on what DOA is about.

Which you have yet to explain....

 

[Lulu]

Strikes must have less leniency than throws, because the throws have much more forgiving input feel than the strikes do.

They're all just buttons to me.... they all feel the same. I don't get what you mean.

 

[Chapstick]

I notice Kasumi's/Phase's 46T is harder than Ayane's 64T for me at least. 46T comes out as pretty much anything but 46T while 64T comes out right 9/10 times

Edit- and I should mention I do Leifang's 46P correctly every single so I'm used to the input

 

[DestructionBomb]

I didn't buy this game to ignore a character's move whether it wasn't a key move or not, thats just a waste of money.... there have actually been numerous moves people thought were not all that useful or distinct that turned out to serve a very practical purpose..... and even if it didn't I'd like to test that myself.... you'l forgive me for not taking some one elses word for it.... especially yours.


It benefits anybody who was lead to believe this game isn't about execution when it actually is.... bottom line is easier inputs are not going to make the game, its characters or their moves anyworse....


You most definitely did not explain it.... you merely stated you like the inputs hard but never explained why they needed to be in the first place.... thats not explanation.... if you think I have insufficient knowledge about the game then stop cracking wise and educate me.....how do Easier Inputs kill the game ?



I couldn't even if I wanted to..... sorry to dissapoint you.

Actually more intuitive inputs designed to ensure people perform the actions they intented to perform not excluding anbody who maybe interested trying the game because they liked some aspect of it, increasing the pool of players goes directly torwards improving the game Significantly..... you simply wouldn't notice. Hell if you're as good as you think you are I bet you haven't even noticed that Hayate's and his don't even have the same leniency.

- You didn't buy the game to ignore the character's moves, but you sure as hell bought it knowing you will not use 100% of the entire character movelist lol.

- Guess what? did you know that you can pre-buffer moves within a block stun or i2 delay of a move? you should be glad this game is not strict heavy like VF as a 3D fighter. If it was, then I would of...."actually" agreed with you.

- Incorrect, it benefits "you." They can do hard inputs too. It's who they are accustomed to and who they sticked with.

- "Easier inputs are not going to make the game." Your best post by far and it's not even Christmas. Congrats because it will never happen nor make the game better. If you know easier inputs won't make the game then why are you asking for something as trivial as this.

- Never said I liked the inputs hard, I said that it provides credibility, value/reward and reasoning for why certain characters have tougher inputs than others. It's because it's a design. Something that will not change. Characters providing more damage here but a physical payout that's not in the game itself and literally on your actual fingers. Neutral with execution but I have positive understanding as to why certain character have an execution barrier upon actually hitting the lab.

- I did but your theory on easy inputs flew out the window.

- Didn't come here to impress you, that would be a waste amount of time left living on earth.

- Clearly you still are oblivious to what's around you and throwing baseless things saying I have "Insufficient knowledge". Well how are you at the game? how much do you know about the characters? You are going to have to back it up somehow. It is a fighting game naturally, prove it. Up for some games? It's planet earth, we have until 2256 till the Earth blows up. Oh wait, we will be dead by then, how insufficient my knowledge was there! Such Woe!

- The game is increasing and is being hosted by DOA festival and steadily increasing the numbers. An event that gathers players from across the seas and the US. That's one topic you shouldn't get into in this thread lol but oh shit who am I kidding? this game is too hard!

- Hayate's 66P is a i16 with 24 in recovery and I would assume 66P+K is 21 frames tops. One faster than the other......yup, totally makes sense to include those moves in a easy input ideas and mentioning latency, but woe is me.

 

[KasumiLover]

They're all just buttons to me.... they all feel the same. I don't get what you mean.

What I meant is that certain strikes are stricter than throws with the same input, strangely.

 

[Lulu]

I notice Kasumi's/Phase's 46T is harder than Ayane's 64T for me at least. 46T comes out as pretty much anything but 46T while 64T comes out right 9/10 times

Edit- and I should mention I do Leifang's 46P correctly every single so I'm used to the input

That reminds of Brad Wong's... its less lenient than Tina's

Both Tina and Brad Wong's is way way way too lenient.... I think the thing that bothers most people is why they just double the directional input instead of assigning it to an "empty input slot" that won't overlap with any existing commands....
I'm assuming thats why they changed Ayane's Spin Stance from in 5 Vanilla to in 5 Ultimate.... actually I don't know what the initial input would have overlapped with.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Turn on the move details and examine it.

Speed - Active - Recovery

 

[Lulu]

- You didn't buy the game to ignore the character's moves, but you sure as hell bought it knowing you will not use 100% of the entire character movelist lol.

- Guess what? did you know that you can pre-buffer moves within a block stun or i2 delay of a move? you should be glad this game is not strict heavy like VF as a 3D fighter. If it was, then I would of...."actually" agreed with you.

- Incorrect, it benefits "you." They can do hard inputs too. It's who they are accustomed to and who they sticked with.

- "Easier inputs are not going to make the game." Your best post by far and it's not even Christmas. Congrats because it will never happen nor make the game better. If you know easier inputs won't make the game then why are you asking for something as trivial as this.

- Never said I liked the inputs hard, I said that it provides credibility, value/reward and reasoning for why certain characters have tougher inputs than others. It's because it's a design. Something that will not change. Characters providing more damage here but a physical payout that's not in the game itself and literally on your actual fingers. Neutral with execution but I have positive understanding as to why certain character have an execution barrier upon actually hitting the lab.

- I did but your theory on easy inputs flew out the window.

- Didn't come here to impress you, that would be a waste amount of time left living on earth.

- Clearly you still are oblivious to what's around you and throwing baseless things saying I have "Insufficient knowledge". Well how are you at the game? how much do you know about the characters? You are going to have to back it up somehow. It is a fighting game naturally, prove it. Up for some games? It's planet earth, we have until 2256 till the Earth blows up. Oh wait, we will be dead by then, how insufficient my knowledge was there! Such Woe!

- The game is increasing and is being hosted by DOA festival and steadily increasing the numbers. An event that gathers players from across the seas and the US. That's one topic you shouldn't get into in this thread lol but oh shit who am I kidding? this game is too hard!

- Hayate's 66P is a i16 with 24 in recovery and I would assume 66P+K is 21 frames tops. One faster than the other......yup, totally makes sense to include those moves in a easy input ideas, but woe is me.

-Actually I bought it on a whim....
-The VF chatacters are alot more lenient in VF than they are in DoA.... again... you wouldn't notice.
-That must explain all Akira players I see everywhere.... oh no wait.... Akira's Board is a ghost town.... nice try.... its not just "me".
-It was accident... that sentence is incomplete..... Easier inputs are not going to make the game worse. Is what I thought I wrote.
-You haven't explained what that means beyond liking the difficult inputs because they feel good to "you"....you remember your Izuna example..... you never gave a counter argument when I pointed out that changing the input for the Izuna isn't going to change the Izuna itself. It appears you don't know what an explaination even is.
-Only in your imaginiation.
-well then congratulations.... I'm not impressed.... didn't ask you to impress me anyway.... I just wanted an explaination.
-You beating me proves what exactly ? Is the only reason you bothered to challenge me is because you know I have execution difficulty....
-When did I ever say the game was never increasing at all ?
-and what does that have to do with the input leniency ?

 

[Lulu]

What I meant is that certain strikes are stricter than throws with the same input, strangely.

Thats the thing that bugs me.... there doesn't seem to be any consistent pattern to how the leniency is tied to each input.... some are strict and are forgiving regardless of damage, speed, purpose, character etc.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Where is that facepalm picture, except the facepalm should go through the face because that post by Lulu above me was ridiculous.

On second thought! I take it back! make all the inputs easy . Raidou is going to bump a tier for converting the catch grab on hitting buttons with a easy input as 236T! This is also a good chance to actually make Shimbori's theory on why Akira is top tier come true. Just imagine a shoulder with just a simple input dealing 90+ because the opponent decided to smack a string providing all that juicy disadvantage on themselves and then in between... boom! all that damage!

Oh man! Yup...make it all easy.

 

[KasumiLover]

Where is that facepalm picture, except the facepalm should go through the face because that post by Lulu above me was ridiculous.

On second thought! I take it back! make all the inputs easy . Raidou is going to bump a tier for converting the catch grab on hitting buttons with a easy input as 236T! This is also a good chance to actually make Shimbori's theory on why Akira is top tier come true. Just imagine a shoulder with just a simple input dealing 90+ because the opponent decided to smack a string providing all that juicy disadvantage on themselves and then in between... boom! all that damage!

Oh man! Yup...make it all easy.

I have to give props to players like you who can actually use Akira and other difficult characters.

 

[DestructionBomb]

I have to give props to players like you who can actually use Akira and other difficult characters.

Why thank you @Kasumilover98 . Appreciate it.

For giggles, I will teach @Chapstick how to do the knee on a dualshock. He won't regret it and I'm sure Code and Brute will enjoy it.

 

[d3v]

Sorry Can't watch the video.... not that it matters... I didn't say anything about Pokes and Mid Distance Footsies.
And thats true I don't understand 2D Fighters..... and you don't you understand the implications of a Low Risk High Reward move.... namely a Fireball Trap. Even in Street Fighter 4 this move is all kinds of wrong.... say one person plays Ryu and another plays Some slow character with no projectiles or teleports of their own and have to resort to FDC to get close to their opponent.... Ryu can just run away and start his easy Low Risk Fire Ball Shenanigans and you have to rack up temporary damage while using the much more difficult FDC to get closer so you can do your thing..... its important to note that Ryu is gaining meter while he does this and can easily convert the potential damage into real damage by using an Ex Version move of his very own.... this can be an Ex Fireball that does two hits that FDC cant beat or a simple Shoryken to catch you if you try to jump in....

Or they can use one of the many ways to get in and actually win the match, considering that Ryu is mid tier and the top tier characters in the game such as Yun are all rushdown characters who rely on getting in and doing big damage. Even Evil Ryu who is top tier doesn't rely much on zoning.

Ryu's fireball trap hasn't been that strong for decades now. Players have discovered and developed many ways to get in over the years.

All this does is just highlight the meta-game of Street Fighter, where players will develop something "low risk high reward", only for other players to come up with a counter to them. This is how all fighting games, whether 2D or 3D, develop.

In any case, the original argument wasn't just about fireballs, but about multiple versions of specials. Take for example attacks that count as reversals, doesn't have to be Shoryuken's. For the most part, each variation, depending on the strength of the button pressed, gives different properties, whether it's height, invul, damage, recovery, etc. For example, for Ryu's Shoryu->FADC-<Ultra 1 to work, he needs to use the light punch version. However, the lower height means that for certain situations, he has to anti air with the heavy punch version.

Then there are moves like Decapre's stinger, which depending on the button pressed, have different invulnerabilities - one version is strike invul, another is throw invul and the third is only invulnerable against fireballs. This means that she can't just YOLO reversal out of knockdown because she has to respect whatever meaty attack her opponent is doing. At the same time, this encourages the attacker to risk a meaty attack on wakeup, since it means that Decapre can't just mash a reversal out every time (but has to think about which version she needs to use).

Yeah I definitely don't get 2D Fighters.... and 2D Fighters don't get Good Game design..... you'l forgive me when I say Capcom can take their Multi-Speed Fireballs and shove them up their ass. Anybody defending this is essentially defending their undeserved right to be an ass hole....

Yeah, and anyone who believes this is just flat out being a "scrubs" in the most academic sense of the word.

A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

And speaking of the meta, from the same chapter in that book.

The good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Everything you consider "low risk high reward" (or in other words, cheap) is just something good players learn to deal with and overcome by developing something even "cheaper."

Again you need to becareful how you phrase your argument.... it sounds like you're saying Arcade Sticks are not different from one another and it also sounds like you're saying each console's controller is completely different..... if what you're trying to say is a pad is different from an arcade stick then that I get that (its pretty obvious). but if you're saying the difference between an Xbox Controller and a PS3 Controller is like Night and Day but the Difference from one Arcade Stick to a Different Acrdade Stick is Negligible then thats ...... Sigh..... do I even really have to say it ?

Except they are. For example, players like Luffy and Wokfrone only play on specific pads and bring their own adaptors to tournaments simply because they can only play on those specific pads.

Meanwhile, as I previously mentioned, modern arcade sticks all have the same layout and parts as those are the layout and parts that players use (in the same way that all high end gaming keyboards use the same Cherry microswitches).

I never said anything about something being Ruined.... you're argument was: removing an unintended exploit was a major change and my counter argument was the discovery of said exploit IS ALSO major change..... there by pointing out the hypocrisy in those stories you mentioned about people complaining about major changes.

But lets assume that is what I said.... you didn't factor in the execution barrier into your counter argument (which is what this all about remember?).... to revert back to my example of Ryu's Fireball Trap, the Kara Cancelling technique will make playing a slower character alil bit more viable since they can double the Armor of their Armoured Attacks nullifying the Ex Trap..... but thats before you factor in Kara Cancelling is a notoriously difficult Technique.... you're probably not even going to see it being used...... even if the exploit doesn't ruin the game..... the execution barrier preventing people from being able to use a move that would make the game balanced against a different exploit will ruin the game for anyone who is unable to perform it.... killing off the strategy the game supposedly has. Perhaps developers should spend less time on the tier list Meta Game and more time fixing the Actual Game.

Basic kara-cancelling is not even "notoriously difficult". All it involves is pressing something in a certain order.

And in any case, alot of these so called "notoriously difficult" high-level techniques do get used alot, in high level tournament play. And it's accepted because, as stated in the quotes above, eventually, players just develop more tactics that can beat these out.

As for your comments about the meta-game, every competitive endeavour, be it fighting games, chess, basketball, etc. has a meta-game. It's something unavoidable. These are competitions, not some D&D tabletop role-playing session where knowledge of the meta can ruin people's immersion (because it's not a competition). As soon as you step into the ring or court, or arena to face another person the meta develops. As soon as you realize that doing move x beats out your opponents move y, you're playing with the meta (and of course, vice versa, when you realize that what your opponent is doing is beating out what you're doing).

There is nothing to fix because there isn't anything inherently broken about using the meta. As I keep stating, that's how all competitive games develop.

Speaking Of Which.... theres one unresolved issue:

Again.... I know you think you made point but its pointless if you don't explain it.... what does any of that have to do with inputs deliberately designed unintuitively to increase the chances of failure ?

Because nobody wants a solved game. A game that is truly solved is boring since the outcome is predictable. Yet, at the same time, nobody like randomness in competitive games. Input like what we have in fighting games address this problem by allowing some small degree of unpredictability while allowing players to practice against it.

Of course, that's on top of my earlier point about allowing for multiple variations of both normal and special moves.

 

[d3v]

You are missing the point. Everything goes into shamble regardless on how the approach is made when making the game more simplistic than it has to be.

We've already had examples of that.

When Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter was released. The game miraculously had none of the brokenness that usually comes with every Versus game. This however made the game very boring as each character approached each other the same way and had the same basic combos, making the community either stick the X-Men vs. Street Fighter (which is very broken) or jump ship to Marvel vs. Capcom (which brought back the brokenness) when it came out.

It's interesting to note that, the community has acknowledged that an interesting game is oftentimes not the most balanced one. This is because the imbalances tend to be caused by match ups that seem lopsided, but are actually the result of characters having very unique tools requiring unique solutions to the problems presented in certain match ups.

 

[Matt Ponton]

This however made the game very boring as each character approached each other the same way and had the same basic combos

Ah, so DOA4. gotcha.

I often use Sirlin's example of climbing mountains when describing DOA4... It's like you had this good sized mountain in DOA3, but then decided to cut it horizontally at it's midpoint to make a plateau. You made the climb shorter and there's more people who can enjoy the full "mountain" but it effectively is boring to be there with everyone else on the flat ground.

 

[Chapstick]

For giggles, I will teach @Chapstick how to do the knee on a dualshock. He won't regret it and I'm sure Code and Brute will enjoy it.

A while ago I temporarily changed my control layout to have H on circle and K on X just to clear the command training knee lol

Edit- this does not work on the PS4 dualshock with these goddamn clicky buttons. Also look how far I've come with an input I thought I'd never be able to pull off consistently not so long ago

Anything is possible follow your dreams

 

[d3v]

Ah, so DOA4. gotcha.

I often use Sirlin's example of climbing mountains when describing DOA4... It's like you had this good sized mountain in DOA3, but then decided to cut it horizontally at it's midpoint to make a plateau. You made the climb shorter and there's more people who can enjoy the full "mountain" but it effectively is boring to be there with everyone else on the flat ground.

I think the problem is that some people have the mistaken belief that having that plateau is better for the game, when history has proven that it isn't. If your meta doesn't grow, then the game dies.

 

[Argentus]

Good, I am glad you stopped reading because it's not you ever take the time to study the game for once. It saves me time to help others that are willing to learn the game.

There is no point missing when none of what you both request will happen because it's completely out the window and does not provide any improvements to the game.

The issue with an individual like you is that you are living under a rock and prefer things on your own needs while telling others to believe guaranteed damage is not skill or juggling.

I respect your opinion but again, none of it will improve the game. If you continue to believe some of it does not require any skills, keep it up. I am quite glad that Team NINJA is keeping it up and providing the game with guaranteed damage and to stay that way until the day your descendants decides to pick up the game if Team NINJA lasts long as a sub company for KOEI.



I would assume that's the Raijin input, now here's a fun fact: That is not Hayate's key throw. If it's a hard input....then ignore it. Even I believe the move is unintelligent but I won't ask Team NINJA to make it easier, simply because it's what? Hayate? I do believe the damage should be increased to fit the needs for such a throw.

You don't know what DOA is about if you are actually talking about character execution and make it easier because you yourself as a player cannot do it. You just don't change things for your own personal benefit.

I did. I explained it to you but you believe to have much more knowledge to how the game's approach is and are far too stubborn to even admit it due to providing your theory on how execution should based on your own feelings for how the game should be with easier inputs. All from 1 person. Yeah, good luck with that.

You could ask for it to be changed..but it's not a key element to improving the game and chances are slim because the developers don't care. Good luck with that once more. Character design for diversity and complexity for different outcomes. Just like SF, BlazBlue, VF, Tekken and so many other fighting games, and I gotta say....it's quite pure and enjoyable. I mean, you said I didn't know about DOA. Would you like to play some games for that regard into proving that? Who knows, you may win and beat me, but chances are that it may not end well for you on that happening. There has to be some way of proving it!

lol and so you'd rather just talk nonsensical shit than discuss anything. AGAIN.

Typical.

If you'd like to take your head out of your ass for once, and pay attention to what people are saying, FOR ONCE, we could get somewhere.

Yes we know TN won't change it. This is just a thread about "general complaints". It's just a general complaint. Pay fucking ATTENTION.

Fucking hell its like talking to a wall with you.

Now this part is where I'm alone: I don't like The Stagger Escaping Mechanic and Unholdable Stuns themselves..... they just don't seem like they have a place anywhere in DoA's Triangle System..... they literally cut out the Hold Mechanic.




How much satisfactiom can one get from successfully doing one of these arbitrary inputs anyway....

I agree, but that's the entire point. Most people don't like the hold system, because they like stuff to be guaranteed.

On the second point, I dunno. It CAN be fun. ryu's izuna input can be kinda fun with the buffer (just spin the thumbstick while mashing T), and if say, it made me mash P for Mila's machine gun punch, that could be satisfying as well. It's just still horribly impractical lol.

Like I'm enjoying how they adjusted Mila's feints. not because I had trouble doing it before, but because how its done now is more streamlined. Just better game design.

My only problem is that the AI can be a super psychic cyborgs even in low-mid difficulty. Even worse in DOA5+ since they can even spawn a super tank psychic juggler in stage 3, 5, or 9 in a Rookie survival, arcade, time attack.

My second problem is Marie Rose and Honoka. Btw, fans, please don't take my opinion too seriously / personally. Anyway, these two are like total clowns to me. As much as how surreal other characters' fighting move are, Marie Rose's is beyond ridiculous - and she's not even half-human like Alpha or Nyotengu so far I know. Honoka, however, I'm fine with her background story of copying fighters' skills. But they should at least tweak the animation off, so (let's say) Jann Lee's flying kick won't be exact Jann Lee's kick in different body.

Agreed. Those two just throw the whole atmosphere off.

I'm curious how they come up with some of the weird inputs, almost like they sat there like "fuck iono lemme hit these random numbers on the keyboard and make the input that." Raidou's is like It's not hard to do with buffering :b360: IIRC but it's so peculiar. I remember looking at some of KoF's inputs too and scratching my head.

While I personally don't like difficult execution because I admittedly suck at it (trying to get better) I understand the point of it is to give bigger rewards for harder work.

Yeah lol. Like I said before, it's mostly just for the personal satisfaction of getting it off, than anything else. There's no like...design logic to it, and it doesn't really affect actual gameplay.

Just horribly impractical, to the point where I have to just abandon certain moves entirely when I play online, because there's no damn way an input like that would read with lag. At least not reliably.

Just practice that, it's a matter of being quick enough with your fingers. Though it is useful I don't really find myself doing it too much anyhow lol

As for @Argentus you should know the importance of execution considering your characters. The inputs aren't complicated but your timing needs to be on point or else your throws get broken.

oh i know that. Timing is one thing, I'm just talking arbitrary inputs. I probably rely on timing more than most due to not using as many setups.

When I talk about "execution", i'm referring to the "Memorize a combo input for half health guaranteed damage" kinda thing. I know I'm a little hypocritical due to being able to match that damage with a single hold, but I still consider that (baiting/reading) to take a bit more than just "mash stun/launcher".

Hell if you're as good as you think you are I bet you haven't even noticed that Hayate's and his don't even have the same leniency.

FYI, Dbomb DOES know the game really well.

He just prefers to be an ass, rather than actually explain things. Hence this little runaround. Sometimes he'll be genuinely helpful, but the attitude coming up instead is pretty standard fare. (I realized I actually have him blocked on PSN, which I only do when people spam hatemail. Unblocked for now because I don't remember what he said.) He also has a hard time looking at things from other perspectives. But he knows the technical side pretty damn well. It's trying to get a straight answer out of him that's the hard part lol.

-You beating me proves what exactly ?

You would not BELIEVE how often that happens in the FGC lol. The Uwe Boll approach to arguing.

I remember back in MVC2, I was bitching that I was tired of everyone picking the same Magneto/Storm/Sentinel team or variation thereof. This one guy challenged me to a match to...prove me wrong? I accepted out of boredom. he beat me....by going MagnetoPSYLOCKESentinel lol. I couldn't stop laughing at the idiocy. Still got a couple rounds on him even though he played seriously and I only played it casually. Spent the last few matches just spamming SonSon's taunt while sending out Juggernaut and Mechgief lol.

Or they can use one of the many ways to get in and actually win the match, considering that Ryu is mid tier and the top tier characters in the game such as Yun are all rushdown characters who rely on getting in and doing big damage. Even Evil Ryu who is top tier doesn't rely much on zoning.

Ryu's fireball trap hasn't been that strong for decades now. Players have discovered and developed many ways to get in over the years.

All this does is just highlight the meta-game of Street Fighter, where players will develop something "low risk high reward", only for other players to come up with a counter to them. This is how all fighting games, whether 2D or 3D, develop.

In any case, the original argument wasn't just about fireballs, but about multiple versions of specials. Take for example attacks that count as reversals, doesn't have to be Shoryuken's. For the most part, each variation, depending on the strength of the button pressed, gives different properties, whether it's height, invul, damage, recovery, etc. For example, for Ryu's Shoryu->FADC-<Ultra 1 to work, he needs to use the light punch version. However, the lower height means that for certain situations, he has to anti air with the heavy punch version.

Then there are moves like Decapre's stinger, which depending on the button pressed, have different invulnerabilities - one version is strike invul, another is throw invul and the third is only invulnerable against fireballs. This means that she can't just YOLO reversal out of knockdown because she has to respect whatever meaty attack her opponent is doing. At the same time, this encourages the attacker to risk a meaty attack on wakeup, since it means that Decapre can't just mash a reversal out every time (but has to think about which version she needs to use).

Yeah, and anyone who believes this is just flat out being a "scrubs" in the most academic sense of the word.

And speaking of the meta, from the same chapter in that book.

Everything you consider "low risk high reward" (or in other words, cheap) is just something good players learn to deal with and overcome by developing something even "cheaper."

Except they are. For example, players like Luffy and Wokfrone only play on specific pads and bring their own adaptors to tournaments simply because they can only play on those specific pads.

Meanwhile, as I previously mentioned, modern arcade sticks all have the same layout and parts as those are the layout and parts that players use (in the same way that all high end gaming keyboards use the same Cherry microswitches).

Basic kara-cancelling is not even "notoriously difficult". All it involves is pressing something in a certain order.

And in any case, alot of these so called "notoriously difficult" high-level techniques do get used alot, in high level tournament play. And it's accepted because, as stated in the quotes above, eventually, players just develop more tactics that can beat these out.

As for your comments about the meta-game, every competitive endeavour, be it fighting games, chess, basketball, etc. has a meta-game. It's something unavoidable. These are competitions, not some D&D tabletop role-playing session where knowledge of the meta can ruin people's immersion (because it's not a competition). As soon as you step into the ring or court, or arena to face another person the meta develops. As soon as you realize that doing move x beats out your opponents move y, you're playing with the meta (and of course, vice versa, when you realize that what your opponent is doing is beating out what you're doing).

There is nothing to fix because there isn't anything inherently broken about using the meta. As I keep stating, that's how all competitive games develop.

Because nobody wants a solved game. A game that is truly solved is boring since the outcome is predictable. Yet, at the same time, nobody like randomness in competitive games. Input like what we have in fighting games address this problem by allowing some small degree of unpredictability while allowing players to practice against it.

Of course, that's on top of my earlier point about allowing for multiple variations of both normal and special moves.

I remember TvC "Condensed" move inputs, and it worked fairly well. Could they try doing that in the main series, so inputs are more context specific?

We've already had examples of that.

When Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter was released. The game miraculously had none of the brokenness that usually comes with every Versus game. This however made the game very boring as each character approached each other the same way and had the same basic combos, making the community either stick the X-Men vs. Street Fighter (which is very broken) or jump ship to Marvel vs. Capcom (which brought back the brokenness) when it came out.

It's interesting to note that, the community has acknowledged that an interesting game is oftentimes not the most balanced one. This is because the imbalances tend to be caused by match ups that seem lopsided, but are actually the result of characters having very unique tools requiring unique solutions to the problems presented in certain match ups.

Assists (sentinel in particular) can still go fuck themselves though lol.

Ah, so DOA4. gotcha.

I often use Sirlin's example of climbing mountains when describing DOA4... It's like you had this good sized mountain in DOA3, but then decided to cut it horizontally at it's midpoint to make a plateau. You made the climb shorter and there's more people who can enjoy the full "mountain" but it effectively is boring to be there with everyone else on the flat ground.

But goddamn was it ever a gorgeous plateau.

I just want the stages and Nicole (Minus the spartan armor) back from DOA4.


Anyways back on topic.

Another complaint I have, is that the "using 3d models in 2d fighters" trend needs to stop. Sure its great for getting different costumes, but looks extremely jarring and akward to see full 3d models with weight and physics, doing the jerky, twitchy 2d sprite movements.

 

[d3v]

I remember back in MVC2, I was bitching that I was tired of everyone picking the same Magneto/Storm/Sentinel team or variation thereof. This one guy challenged me to a match to...prove me wrong? I accepted out of boredom. he beat me....by going MagnetoPSYLOCKESentinel lol. I couldn't stop laughing at the idiocy. Still got a couple rounds on him even though he played seriously and I only played it casually. Spent the last few matches just spamming SonSon's taunt while sending out Juggernaut and Mechgief lol.

You have to realize that changing a single character changes the way an entire team plays in MvC2. Magneto in particular gains new options and resets when he's paired with Psylocke, and the team is considered a harder rushdown team than MSS. Meanwhile taking Magneto out of the original MSS team and replacing him with Cyclops and moving him to the end (aka Justin Wong's team) creates a more zoning, runaway oriented team.

I remember TvC "Condensed" move inputs, and it worked fairly well. Could they try doing that in the main series, so inputs are more context specific?

Even Street Fighter has changed and/or made its inputs easier as time has progressed. The only reason IV kept some of those stupid inputs (e.g. 12369, or the "tiger knee" input) was because of nostalgia and not wanting to stray to far from II (which is funny because some of the system decisions, such as invunerable backdashes defeated this purpose). 3rd Strike had way easier execution outside of the truly high level stuff and SFV also seems to be following on the same mold with no more 360s and charge supers (just like 3S) while making everyone hit like a truck with short combos.

Assists (sentinel in particular) can still go fuck themselves though lol.

But assists are what make the game unique and give teams unique synergy.

Another complaint I have, is that the "using 3d models in 2d fighters" trend needs to stop. Sure its great for getting different costumes, but looks extremely jarring and akward to see full 3d models with weight and physics, doing the jerky, twitchy 2d sprite movements.

3D models also make it easier to develop and tweak moves and animations since you don't need to redraw individual frames. And the 2D sprite movement is there by choice, since the players prefer it (it keeps the fast, 2D frame data).