A Discussion of sexualised design of male/female characters

[XVideos]

One interesting thing to me is people seem to equate boobs to dicks as if they're the same level of sexual. Dicks are genitals, boobs are not.

It's actually really ironic. Women complain about dick pics all the time because they hate it and they don't find it sexy. In fact they probably phone the cops to file sexual harassment charges using those pics as evidence.

But at the same time, a feminist artist drew a comic strip to satirize sexualization by comparing an attractive woman to a messed up viking with deformingly large biceps and a crotch buldging all the way down to his knees.
It's ironic, that artist hates dick pics, and yet she doesn't understand that she is contradicting herself with that comic. She missed the point in the N-th degree.

Yeah there seems to be the idea that male and female “sexualization” work in the same way, or that that males and females react the same to the same kind of stimuli (visual or other). This might work for some stimuli, but certainly not all.

So all those “look how stupid this looks, if we replace the hot chick with a guy” things miss the point. Replacing a highly attractive female with a average looking guy, put him in a bikini and let him act all feminine and “sensually” eat a burger is just not comparable .

It's not hard to find males that are almost exclusively created by and for a “thirsty” female audience… there is a whole genre of literature for that: erotic and romance novels. And you can't tell me that women do not sexualise males in their “fap fiction”. However the males look nothing like that image from earlier, nor act feminine. Christian Grey is apparently pretty archetypal, the alligator wrestling, rich Neurosurgeon with a wounded bird complex seems to be incredibly common. Surprisingly masculinity get's the straight female motor running and not gender swapping and those guys are by no means mutually exclusive with the male power fantasy.

To demonstrate your point, literally just found this while searching for that viking comic strip

Oh, and here's a parody of that shortpacked comic, JOJO is fucking awesome.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Did I ever say every game has to be like that? I don't think you made a fair point.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that you want to clamp it down, while I want to to make sexualization equal opportunity.

Sexualiziation not being equal-opportunity isn't the issue. You've missed the point entirely.

I said str8 women/gay men should be the ones to design sexualized male characters because gender critics have been complaining that male sexualization designed by straight men is just male power fantasy.

Have you ever been asked your sexual orientation at a job interview? Then find this determined what kind of work you could do? You don't see how that's discriminatory? Even if you mean well?

 

[XVideos]

Sexualiziation not being equal-opportunity isn't the issue. You've missed the point entirely.

One of the issue female gamers have been complaining is that there is not enough man candies for them despite they claim they have the demand for it. With the amount of eye candies male gamers get, of course it's unfair and they criticize this issue. It's about time developers answer their demand.

Have you ever been asked your sexual orientation at a job interview? Then find this determined what kind of work you could do? You don't see how that's discriminatory? Even if you mean well?

Quite on the contrary, my proposal would actually create more jobs and create gender and sexual orientation diversity in the work place. Instead of hiring 1 artist to draw both male and female characters, now 2 artists are hired to design characters they are attracted to.

This is affirmative action.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

That is fucking expensive(at least an extra 60k a year for 3 more artist) and kind of pointless.

First off the lead deseiner is going to be the only one that matters since they have the finall say. And even they don't base it on his decesion they'll go based on the test audience.

Second sexual orientation or sex doesn't really determine what the deseign would be like. gay fashion deseiners typically just make very normal looking clothing. ironic considering gay "style" is probably one of the ugliest things on the planet

Third artist don't need anouther barrier between them and a job, it's hard enough as is without having to match special requirements.

 

[Chapstick]

Second sexual orientation or sex doesn't really determine what the deseign would be like. gay fashion deseiners typically just make very normal looking clothing. ironic considering gay "style" is probably one of the ugliest things on the planet.

Can I have an example of "gay "style""

 

[Goarmagon]

If he is talking about this then I LOVE "gay style". It looks cool as fuck to me.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

Can I have an example of "gay "style""

this is the shit im talking about.

 

[Project Bokuho]

I believe that definitely counts lmfao

 

[Chapstick]

this is the shit im talking about.
View attachment 16992

This is the shit they wear at pride/fetish events/Gaga concerts when they want to show off their bodies, I wouldn't call it "gay style" because most wouldn't be caught dead in something like that.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

This is the shit they wear at pride/fetish events/Gaga concerts when they want to show off their bodies, I wouldn't call it "gay style" because most wouldn't be caught dead in something like that.

i know they dont wear it normally, but for some reason its what they chose to wear when they want to represent the community and it just pisses me off that that's what im represented by.

back on topic i was listening to a podcast that and they brought up a quote that really struck a chord with me. this was said by a man who worked localizing games from Japan when the topic of "Artist true vision" was brought up.

"Something intended to be simply humorous or risqué in a Japanese game might come across to an American gamer as creepy or worse, as pedophilia,” said Smith. “Keeping the problematic content in there with the intent of preserving the creator’s original vision is misguided, because the creator presumably didn’t intend for the audience to feel uncomfortable or offended. The original vision is better served by making adjustments so the new audience appreciates the work on (as closely as possible) the same terms as the original audience."

while this obviously isn't going to apply for every artist or creator i feel like its an aspect that should be considered before casting judgement on a decision. while it can be said that fans of the work or Japanese games in general should expect or be able to deal with those situations keep in mind tons of DOA fans were still pretty creeped out by Marie Rose and many still are although less vocal. t

i feel 90% of issues regarding localization has more to do with underage and anti-pedophilia laws than sex in general. anytime i see someone go "Why the fuck did they change that?!" you kind of have to remind them JRPGs are constantly skirting typical western laws and that one edit might be enough to safely get you that game. had they removed photo mode from DOAD then Sweeden could have enjoyed DOAD just fine.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

while this obviously isn't going to apply for every artist or creator i feel like its an aspect that should be considered before casting judgement on a decision. while it can be said that fans of the work or Japanese games in general should expect or be able to deal with those situations keep in mind tons of DOA fans were still pretty creeped out by Marie Rose and many still are although less vocal. t

i feel 90% of issues regarding localization has more to do with underage and anti-pedophilia laws than sex in general. anytime i see someone go "Why the fuck did they change that?!" you kind of have to remind them JRPGs are constantly skirting typical western laws and that one edit might be enough to safely get you that game. had they removed photo mode from DOAD then Sweeden could have enjoyed DOAD just fine.

Well that's funny because I saw a post from a XSeed Translator from NeoGAF named Tom(before he was banned) who said completely different...

If I can find it, I'll bring it here but in layman's terms, he states that the issue with censorship is that it's a slippery slope. Once someone does it, someone will try to push the envelope further and further wondering what needs to be changed because it may "offend" people.

And the problem with your Marie Rose example...is the fact that Marie is NOT the first or even the last character who is "young" from a sexualized Fighting game(because let's face it, Dead or Alive is NOT the only fighting game that is sexualized with it's females, it's one of the few that's HONEST about it) and unlike other fighting games, she actually has a believable body type(as again, American's as a whole has the best ratio of tall people in the world vs. Everyone else.) and makes sense that she would be 18 and still look like that as well because she's a late bloomer too.
This is in comparison to Amy and Talim who are clearly underage in Soul Calibur, yet no one goes crazy over them like they do with Marie Rose(and in some cases Honoka) because of well...them being in a game that's honest that it's about female sexualization(despite Soul Calibur easily being WORSE than DOA in those aspects) or the female characters who skirt the age of 16-17...but again, despite in the real world you would STILL be beaten for trying to go out with one if you are over 21 or so, it's somehow more okay than Marie Rose who actually IS 18 and barely sexualized to the same degree.

Funny enough, you can honestly say that this is more of a PERSONAL issue with people's expectations vs. the reality at this point(when people go ham over Marie's Pre-Order Swimsuit in DOAX3 when it's still pretty modest and gone stupid over her Default C2 despite it STILL being modest and people going the extra mile in assuming the worst when she came out...yeah this doesn't seem like the right course)

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

Xhomid pretty much every person ive ever talked to about Marie has said she looks 12 which out of extreme medical conditions no 18 year old would look like, you're pretty much the odd one out.

DOAs graphics have gotten much better and their art style much more realistic and thats the reason this has become a problem now. this loli looks like a 12 year old child rather than just a doll or cartoon. by comparison i feel everyone is Soul Calibur has the same face and Talim and Amy look more mature than Marie

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

Xhomid pretty much every person ive ever talked to about Marie has said she looks 12 which out of extreme medical conditions no 18 year old would look like, you're pretty much the odd one out.

Actually, I've seen plenty of people myself online say otherwise and from my own experience, I've seen women with that same body type with the only difference is that they wasn't flatchested either...and they was all black women too. Hell, I barely look any different now then when I looked 15 past being a little darker with a beard and mustache...and I'm 25.
So I doubt it's just medical conditions at play here.

DOAs graphics have gotten much better and their art style much more realistic and thats the reason this has become a problem now. this loli looks like a 12 year old child rather than just a doll or cartoon. by comparison i feel everyone is Soul Calibur has the same face and Talim and Amy look more mature than Marie

Okay now you are just pulling my crank there...
Having 1-2 cute gestures doesn't suddenly make you more or less mature or take away the fact from your actual age and you know that. Or else we got ALOT of characters and people who should be younger than they are.
And FYI, Marie barely acts all that kiddy as only 2-3 things only even show her having some level of an immature personality(and that is offset by her lose pose where it's shown she's faking her crying and one of her victory quotes in which she acknowledges that she's small and not to look down on her) so again, I think that's an overreaction, especially in the face of Amy who is just emotionless and Talim is a priestess bent on a mission doesn't stop their more obvious younger age than Marie(which again falls into the point of somehow sexualizing 16-17 characters is somehow better than Marie)

 

[Chapstick]

Every time someone says Marie's 18 it reminds me of Bravely Default changing ages because of how westerners might react to 15 y/o's in the story. Thinking more about Bravely Default it had one of the rare cases of male censorship. While the girls got outfits altered Abel had this outfit completely removed

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

Every time someone says Marie's 18 it reminds me of Bravely Default changing ages because of how westerners might react to 15 y/o's in the story. Thinking more about Bravely Default it had one of the rare cases of male censorship. While the girls got outfits altered Abel had this outfit completely removed

Well that's true but again, I think that is mainly because of overall mindset and even then, I think the pedophilia mindset is ultimately in America so we are so much all over it compared to other nations in terms of priority.
But even then, I think the Bravery Default is a terrible example because of the DS(and 3DS graphics) aren't all that crazy with how Square keeps it with the 3DS and 4DS cast(who the latter definitely has characters at 18+)

 

[Project Bokuho]

So I've found this article. I thought it was interesting. What are your thoughts on it?
http://nichegamer.com/2015/12/sex-negative-beliefs-are-ruining-gaming-and-society-at-large/

 

[Argentus]

this is the shit im talking about.
View attachment 16992

Honestly between Mad Max and Jojo, that looks just masculine and hetero at this point. Doesn't even come across as "gay" anymore.

Actually, I've seen plenty of people myself online say otherwise and from my own experience, I've seen women with that same body type with the only difference is that they wasn't flatchested either...and they was all black women too. Hell, I barely look any different now then when I looked 15 past being a little darker with a beard and mustache...and I'm 25.
So I doubt it's just medical conditions at play here.



Okay now you are just pulling my crank there...
Having 1-2 cute gestures doesn't suddenly make you more or less mature or take away the fact from your actual age and you know that. Or else we got ALOT of characters and people who should be younger than they are.
And FYI, Marie barely acts all that kiddy as only 2-3 things only even show her having some level of an immature personality(and that is offset by her lose pose where it's shown she's faking her crying and one of her victory quotes in which she acknowledges that she's small and not to look down on her) so again, I think that's an overreaction, especially in the face of Amy who is just emotionless and Talim is a priestess bent on a mission doesn't stop their more obvious younger age than Marie(which again falls into the point of somehow sexualizing 16-17 characters is somehow better than Marie)

In maries case its a combination of mannerisms, voice, physique, and face. She comes across as 9-11. Its not any one thing, its everything together.





Anyways here's a fun experiment.


Here's the original art for angewomon back in late 90s.

Here's her current modern art

Spoiler

 

[Chapstick]

Anyways here's a fun experiment.


Here's the original art for angewomon back in late 90s.

Here's her current modern art

Spoiler

Jeez is that all official art? First one under the spoiler really looks like it's from a doujin.

 

[Sammy-Fu]

So I've found this article. I thought it was interesting. What are your thoughts on it?
http://nichegamer.com/2015/12/sex-negative-beliefs-are-ruining-gaming-and-society-at-large/

Good article but i have always stood by my points that sex is natural and healthy, anyway.

oogling virtual girls doesn't make you a rapist like mowing down innocent people in GTA doesn't make you a mass murderer. In fact if anything, if or when i have kids i think it's important to tell them growing up that sex is OK. I'm pretty sure any parent would want their children to grow up and be happy and have kids of their own one day.

You wouldn't want your kids to grow up to be murderers though, on the other hand. In the end though none of it harms anyone, it's not real and both are layers of entertainment enjoyed by different people and should be embraced for creative freedom.

Developers should have the creative freedom to do and say what they like in their vidya and i will stnad up for creative freedom, i think it's one of the most important parts of entertainment, the freedom to express yourself through art because i'm pretty sure if anyone here created an art piece and somebody told them to change it because "it didn't fit their opinion" they wouldn't stand for that either.

Embrace freedom, not destroy it. <3

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

In maries case its a combination of mannerisms, voice, physique, and face. She comes across as 9-11. Its not any one thing, its everything together.

Voice makes sense when it comes from her bodytype, her mannerisms really isn't that childish(wow, 1 or 2 pieces...so kiddy) her babyface and physique doesn't really change that in the slightest either.

It's again people overreacting for the hell of it.