DR2K
Well-Known Member
She's the only character being intentionally designed to be at a huge disadvantage.
Helena's needed improvements
- Thread starter TRI Mike
- Start date
She's the only character being intentionally designed to be at a huge disadvantage.
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
I clearly mentioned Brad and Lisa players should probably do the same. I haven't seen anything about Brad because other than a few comments form Erik in the stream no one has asked much and Lisa, while Bryan already stated she's low tier, no one really seems to have cared other than Bryan himself and Arnell Long who already made a list of possible changes in Facebook and said he was gonna share it with Team Ninja.
I'd love for Brad and Lisa to be good as well but now that I know Lee, Tina and others I care about are viable, all that remains for me is Hele. And I want her to be good.
I'd love for Brad and Lisa to be good as well but now that I know Lee, Tina and others I care about are viable, all that remains for me is Hele. And I want her to be good.
Ooobe
Active Member
The fact that she's "strong" and extremely technical makes me wonder if there's something inherently undiscovered waiting to be found, like forced tech in DOA4. Does she have re-float options or something along those lines? -Just me being hopeful. 
Thing is, even if she had an easy time into CB! that alone wouldn't be enough. Like DrDogg said in the other thread, there's the matter of what move bursts for her and then there's also the matter of being able to do something worthwhile with the opportunity.
I wholeheartedly agree with the anti-nerfs suggested so far.
Very much looking forward to the breakdown and thanks for your hard work Dogg.
Thing is, even if she had an easy time into CB! that alone wouldn't be enough. Like DrDogg said in the other thread, there's the matter of what move bursts for her and then there's also the matter of being able to do something worthwhile with the opportunity.
I wholeheartedly agree with the anti-nerfs suggested so far.
Very much looking forward to the breakdown and thanks for your hard work Dogg.
Conun
Active Member
Man , I know that Helena needs some work but some people don't even have the character that they like.
Would you prefer that Helena isn't in the game like Ein and Leon or the announcer in the game?
You guys complain that a character needs work but for a whole character for others , you guys say better luck next time or go cry to yourself about it.
For people wanting a character , its like being a poor man and for the people with a character , its like being rich but desire more than what they got.(I am sure they will do something about Helena but be thankful for what you got.)
Would you prefer that Helena isn't in the game like Ein and Leon or the announcer in the game?
You guys complain that a character needs work but for a whole character for others , you guys say better luck next time or go cry to yourself about it.
For people wanting a character , its like being a poor man and for the people with a character , its like being rich but desire more than what they got.(I am sure they will do something about Helena but be thankful for what you got.)
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
While Helena may end up being "weaker" I think you guys are taking the wrong route with this.
Complaining (whining) about how the character seems to play based on a video and not having your favourite moves is NOT a good way for fans to give feedback. What if the new strings/moves are much better? You wouldn't know as you haven't tried it.
I suggest sticking to what we do know based on people actually playing it, and that is the systemic issue of Critical Burst taking too long to activate. Helena would also benefit from this.
(Note, I'm the same opinion of people asking for Leon and Ein to be in the game, let it go and don't annoy the team on big decisions they won't reverse. Give them valuable feedback on something they can action with little time left)
Complaining (whining) about how the character seems to play based on a video and not having your favourite moves is NOT a good way for fans to give feedback. What if the new strings/moves are much better? You wouldn't know as you haven't tried it.
I suggest sticking to what we do know based on people actually playing it, and that is the systemic issue of Critical Burst taking too long to activate. Helena would also benefit from this.
(Note, I'm the same opinion of people asking for Leon and Ein to be in the game, let it go and don't annoy the team on big decisions they won't reverse. Give them valuable feedback on something they can action with little time left)
Ooobe
Active Member
Actually, I'd rather they cut my character than completely ruin them. (Ask SCV players) It's like the twist ending to the cheesy horror stories where people get what they think they want only to find out they were better off before.
Not saying I don't feel your pain, but it's easier and more likely for an existing character to be fixed, than an absent one (or two) to be added. Like the total revamp to the stun system, some battles can't be won, so you fight the ones you can. Sad but true, so we do what we can.
Game Over
Well-Known Member
Personally, I think a good way to approach character design/balance in a fighting game is not to go out of your way to remove options from a character (unless something is RIDICULOUSLY overpowered), but to instead make it where EVERY character is able to utilize the fundamental mechanics of the game in ways that make sense to their fighting style. Have it where each character is a viable threat with numerous tools that need to be respected, and whose playstyles differ in line with their fighting style. And when it comes time for determining tier lists, it should be representative of how the strengths of each character's tools measure up to each other, and not be where top tiers have tons of tools and bottom tiers have very few.
This idea of intentionally stripping away tools from characters without new tools to replace them is just BS.
This idea of intentionally stripping away tools from characters without new tools to replace them is just BS.
daman077c
Active Member
That's the route I'm taking with Helena. I did the same for Leifang when the balance video came out showing that she had a tough time doing 15% damage on high-counter, and was pleasantly rewarded when I played her at HIN. Helena could EASILY be the same way, I mean, outside of the videos that we got, we know NOTHING about how she plays, just that she's had a few strings taken out that everybody uses. What's been added? What tools does she have to work with? Those are the things I'd like to know BEFORE I start whining and complaining as to what needs to be done, and even then, I'm not going to pitch a fit and fanboy/fangirl it up until things get changed. Game developers don't exactly work like that.
RoboJoe
Well-Known Member
Reading this makes me think it is unlikely characters will be patched after the game is out. Though, depending on how old the 0.95v build is, DrDogg may have already given advice to TN and they may be able to make the desired changes (if they're willing) and test them, otherwise based on what I've seen from other games, I think the game has gone or is about to go gold and what you see here is what you'll get.
MaxwellMouse
Active Member
I completely agree with this and it seems like common since to do it this way. I do however I understand that sometimes a character does not turn out the way they were intended.
I'd love to hear in depth design philosophy on their respective games from various fighting games developers. Would be an interesting read. It is kinda strange how little you actually see stuff like that in the games industry.
Conun
Active Member
What if Helena is the way they want her to be? Then your feedback is not valuable like your ranting on about.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
What kind of logic is this? What's the point adding a character in if you're going to strip them of tools that make them unique/useful? Why go out of you way to make a character bad. I don't think I've seen any description from a developer in regards to a character in the history of fighting games as damning as Helena today. I'll be damned if I'm going to be thankful for butchering my character, I'm paying them to make a good game. They way Helena is being handled defies all logic.
Ein and Leon did make it in, they're called Bayman and Hitomi.
ScattereDreams
Well-Known Member
All they said was she's more technical and requires more skill than others. Every fighting game has that, everyone is not going to be perfect, or your dream character. Brad Wong probably requires more attention to her. She lost pp2kp? Okay she has 236p,k,p ~ 4ppp, ppk, and her latest new combination of 33p combined with 3p+k. Some of you guys are asking for changes to her frame data and we don't even know what her frame data looks like for DOA5. I can understand if there was a proper break-down, or the game was out. But you have no idea was can and cannot do from a few vids lol.
Conun
Active Member
If the game sold a million copies than 1 copy or a few wouldn't do a company any different , by logic of paying company means you are entitled to something.(life doesn't work that way if it did , I would get Ein by being a paying customer but the world doesn't work that way.)
If I have to settle with Bayman and Hitomi , then you can settle with crap the same way.
People tend to forget that a game is suppose to be a person's vision and that we are suppose to play that game and enjoy it or dislike it but its Team Ninja's world.(If you don't like it then make your own game that is better than DOA but not like anyone could.)
In all games were you put work into one thing than the other things tend to slip and from what has been said , they purposely made Helena the way they wanted.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
The game is being catered to 1/10th of 1% of people that will buy it. To fans that'll play it the most.
You're settling for good characters. Pobrecito.
It's their goal to make a balanced game, according to them, we're just making them live up to that. It's dishonest to make a character intentionally bad.
Their goal is to is to make a rewarding character for skilled players, you're 100% wrong if you think a poorly constructed character with no advantages is going to do that.
Reread what people who have played as her have said, combine it with match footage shown, and add all the nerfs listed by the director.
Why on Earth would they want to intentionally make a character suck ass?
Be thankful of what? If someone's character returned only to be completely useless, and one of the worst in the game, what exactly do they have to be thankful for? They'll just drop her and move on to someone else instead. If they're never even going to play as her, what difference does it make if she's in the game or not? She's essentially just as gone as Leon.
Exactly.
Doug Nguyen
Well-Known Member
I found out the culptrit to the reason why Helena was nerfed!! At 2:34 and ends at 2:53
x Sypher x
Active Member
THANK YOU! Lol
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
Everyone saying we're "whining" clearly doesn't know how things have been happening in the DOA community as of late. Let me help them.
DrDogg (Bryan) has been working in the IGN Pro League and writing the guide for a long time now. Him among other veteran members of the forums like Rikuto (Erik) and even Allan Paris have played the game more than many people here probably ever will. They know what they're talking about and in my many months posting here I've simply learned to trust them because their opinions have been proved correct over and over. I'm not kissing their asses, it's simply the truth.
Bryan is a Helena main, so even without wanting to, I'm 100% sure he paid more attention on her breakdowns than the ones of the other characters. If he says Helena is crap, it's because Helena is crap. I don't need to have the numbers of the frame data or the move list in front of me. Simply removing PP2KP and the crushing properties of P+K hurts the blonde lady A LOT. If she had other moves to replace those in DOA5, Bryan wouldn't be saying she's crap, so logically, she lost her good tools and TN didn't replace them with anything else.
We're asking Team Ninja to buff her now because the game is about to go gold and online patches have a history of destroying fighting games (look at SCV or even DOA4). An online patch to fix Helena might result in the entire rules of the game being destroyed only to buff her or some other characters losing tools so she can be "good". We want Helena (and Lisa and Brad) to be buffed, not everyone to be nerfed to their shitty level, which is what normally happens with fighting game patches.
DrDogg (Bryan) has been working in the IGN Pro League and writing the guide for a long time now. Him among other veteran members of the forums like Rikuto (Erik) and even Allan Paris have played the game more than many people here probably ever will. They know what they're talking about and in my many months posting here I've simply learned to trust them because their opinions have been proved correct over and over. I'm not kissing their asses, it's simply the truth.
Bryan is a Helena main, so even without wanting to, I'm 100% sure he paid more attention on her breakdowns than the ones of the other characters. If he says Helena is crap, it's because Helena is crap. I don't need to have the numbers of the frame data or the move list in front of me. Simply removing PP2KP and the crushing properties of P+K hurts the blonde lady A LOT. If she had other moves to replace those in DOA5, Bryan wouldn't be saying she's crap, so logically, she lost her good tools and TN didn't replace them with anything else.
We're asking Team Ninja to buff her now because the game is about to go gold and online patches have a history of destroying fighting games (look at SCV or even DOA4). An online patch to fix Helena might result in the entire rules of the game being destroyed only to buff her or some other characters losing tools so she can be "good". We want Helena (and Lisa and Brad) to be buffed, not everyone to be nerfed to their shitty level, which is what normally happens with fighting game patches.
Conun
Active Member
Never said I would play them , maybe I will play Helena that everyone is complaining about.(I love me some low tier action.)
All I've been reading is a topic full of people mad about Helena.(I am not mad about Ein and Leon but acceptance is a key step to moving on and its the same here.) (If I should be fine accepting a different character then you should be able to also.)
Companies can't live up to all their promises and they are human like us all and there is a time restraints along with costs that they have to worry about. (Look at all the other fighting games this generation.....Team Ninja would be saints , if they fixed Helena for everyone.)
DR2K
Well-Known Member
You have realistic alternatives for those playstyles though. Helena players are going to have to learn a new character or gtfo.
We're mad about things we can control, not the things we can't. We're at a stage where we can get Helena fixed or at least have some light shed on her new tools.
A few frame data fixes won't kill them. It would be nice if they elaborated on Helena and why they felt the need to go to such extremes.