ScattereDreams
Well-Known Member
So have they brought back pp2kp, or is Team Ninja trolling with 2kp/66kpp
Helena's needed improvements
- Thread starter TRI Mike
- Start date
So have they brought back pp2kp, or is Team Ninja trolling with 2kp/66kpp
Yeah, it's pretty damn awesome, really. Major props to Team Ninja for how in tune with their audience they are. You don't see that kind of connection with many other developers.
It's probably because no other character has appeared to be anywhere near as bad as she apparently is.
I certainly hope so, but honestly, I'm pretty scared for her this late in development.
Riizch
Member
I hear you, dude. I think that outside of a few minor buffs here and there (possibly damage output), there's little that can be done this late in the day.
I guess it's not surprising that the community has jumped on the Helena situation the way they have, when she is literally the ONLY character that TN have officially confirmed that they have removed tools from. Everyone else seems to have either stayed the same for the most part, had a few minor additions to their repertoire, or been given a much-needed overhaul. All the focus has been on the positives - what those characters are able to bring to the table in DOA5. With Helena, it's been all about what they've taken away, save for a disconcertingly vague reference to her being very technical.
Perhaps that's where TN have slipped up. They've done nothing to glorify the things she will do well, and ultimately, we have no idea what those things are at this stage. For all we know, she might have some awesome tools that haven't been showcased, or even mentioned at this stage. Afterall, we have only seen 2 videos where she appears to be played by an average player against a very specific opponent in Lisa.
Perhaps TN should have thought about publicising her abilities rather than drawing all the attention to the things they have taken away. I know DrDogg has said that she is the worst character at present, and maybe this will hold true, but I'm sure it can't be as bad as everyone is freaking out that it'll be. It will probably just take more work to play her well than it did in DOA4.
Ultimately, she isn't the only character to have gone from strong to weak and vice versa across the previous DOA iterations. I guess how much of a travesty it truly is will depend on how she fares against the rest of the cast upon release. I accept that some characters will be better/worse than they used to be, but if it truly is to the extent that she is effectively broken, then we may have something to worry about.
I guess it's not surprising that the community has jumped on the Helena situation the way they have, when she is literally the ONLY character that TN have officially confirmed that they have removed tools from. Everyone else seems to have either stayed the same for the most part, had a few minor additions to their repertoire, or been given a much-needed overhaul. All the focus has been on the positives - what those characters are able to bring to the table in DOA5. With Helena, it's been all about what they've taken away, save for a disconcertingly vague reference to her being very technical.
Perhaps that's where TN have slipped up. They've done nothing to glorify the things she will do well, and ultimately, we have no idea what those things are at this stage. For all we know, she might have some awesome tools that haven't been showcased, or even mentioned at this stage. Afterall, we have only seen 2 videos where she appears to be played by an average player against a very specific opponent in Lisa.
Perhaps TN should have thought about publicising her abilities rather than drawing all the attention to the things they have taken away. I know DrDogg has said that she is the worst character at present, and maybe this will hold true, but I'm sure it can't be as bad as everyone is freaking out that it'll be. It will probably just take more work to play her well than it did in DOA4.
Ultimately, she isn't the only character to have gone from strong to weak and vice versa across the previous DOA iterations. I guess how much of a travesty it truly is will depend on how she fares against the rest of the cast upon release. I accept that some characters will be better/worse than they used to be, but if it truly is to the extent that she is effectively broken, then we may have something to worry about.
Riizch
Member
Obviously Bryan knows his shit, and if he says that Helena is lame, then it obviously gives us cause for concern. But that said, I think there's a big difference between her being lame and nowhere near as good as she was in DOA4 and being effectively broken and worthless, as a lot of people seem to be taking away from her breakdown.
Ultimately, there isn't anything we can do about it now anyway. TN have confirmed that they are aware of the feelings amongst Helena players, so if anything can be done about it, then I'm sure it will have been. If, on the other hand, it's too late for her, then I guess we just have to keep faith in TN and hope that they will address it with a patch, should one be truly necessary. I know they have said they don't like the thought of patching (and who does..?), but with how much effort has gone into balancing this game and taking on board the feelings of the community, I've no doubt that they will do whatever it takes to fix a "broken" character, if she is broken.
The true extent of the damage has yet to be seen. Until release, we'll just have to wait and hope.
Ultimately, there isn't anything we can do about it now anyway. TN have confirmed that they are aware of the feelings amongst Helena players, so if anything can be done about it, then I'm sure it will have been. If, on the other hand, it's too late for her, then I guess we just have to keep faith in TN and hope that they will address it with a patch, should one be truly necessary. I know they have said they don't like the thought of patching (and who does..?), but with how much effort has gone into balancing this game and taking on board the feelings of the community, I've no doubt that they will do whatever it takes to fix a "broken" character, if she is broken.
The true extent of the damage has yet to be seen. Until release, we'll just have to wait and hope.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Rooting for Helena improvements, but Damn we need one of these topics for Christie too
No, she's got a lot going for her. Guard break/evasion queen.
ILYA✰
Active Member
Well yeah, it's really great that Christie isn't underpowered anymore.. Just not so pleased with taking moves and the crouching stance away :/
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Well they made it useful, and even added moves while making her feel unique in the process. Which is nothing like the Helena situation right now. Where she's just nerfed and excels at nothing for the moment.
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
You need to understand that this is a new game. You can't expect Christie to have the exact same style she had in DOA4. The problem with Hele is that while everyone got awesome stuff, she lost too many things and her new strings don't seem very useful.
ILYA✰
Active Member
I'm not complaining, just feels weird.. Hope everything is good in the final version.
And I am too shocked and a bit furious about this Helena situation.
Did TN think that Helena was too strong in DoA4?
EDIT: And with the word strong I'm not referring to just damage etc.. More like do they think Helena needs to go down a tier or something..?
And I am too shocked and a bit furious about this Helena situation.
Did TN think that Helena was too strong in DoA4?
EDIT: And with the word strong I'm not referring to just damage etc.. More like do they think Helena needs to go down a tier or something..?
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
They probably just had a different idea when they made her in 5. The thing is that, as Bryan says, TN doesn't realize that forcing a character to play DOA4's stun game in 5 is gonna make them "weak" compared to others who can completely ignore it like Jann or Bass. Hele seems to be forced to play the stun thresholds without having strong throws, terrible damage output, most strings being unsafe as hell, tech game from DOA4 gone and things like PP2KP being gone and P+K no longer crouching.
Now, I'm 100% sure she'll be viable for casuals and even hardcore matches but when it comes to tournament play and practicing to get a good place in a tourney, I don't think she'll be viable at all at her current state. I mained her for seven years in DOA4 and I'm hurt and heart broken to see her like this because even if it's "just a game", I wanted to live my DOA5 experience with her. But I'm willing to change my main couple to Jann and Eliot or Jann and Tina in case she doesn't get any better.
Now, I'm 100% sure she'll be viable for casuals and even hardcore matches but when it comes to tournament play and practicing to get a good place in a tourney, I don't think she'll be viable at all at her current state. I mained her for seven years in DOA4 and I'm hurt and heart broken to see her like this because even if it's "just a game", I wanted to live my DOA5 experience with her. But I'm willing to change my main couple to Jann and Eliot or Jann and Tina in case she doesn't get any better.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
I think they changed design philosphies on her. Itagaki and co were well aware of Helena being low tier, even though a JP Helena player beat Offbeat Ninja (Ein) in a special DOA2U tournament. So in DOA4 they wanted to make sure she would get buffed all around and they put a lot of work into her.
Shimbori believes that Helena shouldn't be simple, basically strong and straight forward, his version of Helena would be one that advanced players could only win with. P+K and her pp2kp would be things considered damaging and overused. in DOA2 and DOA3 a Helena player had to be better, trickier, and rely on the fact that their opponent didn't know how to beat her. Hence his version of a technical Helena is one that doesn't have any powerful moves, a lot of the new mechanics in DOA5 are featured in some of the best characters because they allow for incredibly easy and effective damage.
DOA5 Helena is basically going back to her DOA2/3 roots. ineffective for most people to use and really only for the type of player that can specilise in her. If you're going to be using Helena you're going to have to understand how to beat every other character with a limited arsenal of effective moves. You'll notice that a lot of characters are going back those mechanics from Bass's pick up game, Jann's dragon gunner, grapplers having OH unique to them, etc. . . almost kind of exciting in a morbid train accident kind of way.
. .
It was a pretty flawed design choice, no doubt. I'm definitely going to give Helena a chance, but if I just can't seem to do anything with her, I'll just drop her and move on to someone else. I'm really liking the looks of Tina, Bass, Bayman, and several others right now. Also interested in Brad Wong, but he's got a pretty bad track record, so he might be in the same boat as Helena. I really hope that she ends up with some viable options.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
I still think she'll have some dirty tricks up her sleeve. Her bokuho throw works well with her predictable mids, I can see this being an effective 50/50.
What is her CB, does she have a CB from bokuho?
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
I remember DrDogg saying that all of her CB's are mid punches, that might indicate she has one from BKO or just multiple ones from FF, but it's just a guess on my part.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
She has one CB, it's 7P. All of her sit-down stuns are mid punches and her CB is a mid punch. So yes, Helena is forced to play the stun game and basically mix-up between mid punches and BKO throw. If this were DOA4, I wouldn't have a huge issue, but when you compare her to basically every other character in the game, her tools are far weaker and she has a difficult time using any of the new DOA5 features aside from the sidestep system.