Just a thought...Counter Teching?

[RhythmikDesigns]

Hella random, but I was thinking about DOA driving home from school and the idea of counter teching came to mind. The idea is if you input the same counter input that is being used on you within the first few frames of the counter animation, you would break resetting both you and opponent to neutral. I was wondering how something like this would change the game fundamentally. Would you guys even be up for something like this? Do think it could work? Just asking.

 

[Allan Paris]

What would be the purpose of holding as a defender?

 

[Matt Ponton]

Since you know which hold will hold you.... what's the point? The flow will still be reset.

 

[RhythmikDesigns]

If the offensive player getting held doesn't tech in a timely fashion, then they get the damage dealt to them. Or to make it more worthwhile, I guess, for the person whose countering, make the tech input slightly more difficult. When I was thinking about this, I had counter spammers in mind.

Since you know which hold will hold you.... what's the point? The flow will still be reset.

The point would be not to take the damage of the counter. I'm not saying the input window should be large. If you don't react to it fast enough, you would still take the damage.

 

[Allan Paris]

Then throw the hold. That's a very good way of not taking the damage of a hold. I see what you're getting at but this would hurt the game in the grand scheme of things.

 

[RhythmikDesigns]

Then throw the hold. That's a very good way of not taking the damage of a hold. I see what you're getting at but this would hurt the game in the grand scheme of things.

True, but do that you would have to anticipate the hold. What I'm talking about is reacting to it. How would this hurt the game? Not saying you're wrong in that it wouldn't, just would like to get you opinion on how so.

 

[Allan Paris]

True, but do that you would have to anticipate the hold. What I'm talking about is reacting to it. How would this hurt the game? Not saying you're wrong in that it wouldn't, just would like to get you opinion on how so.

Ok, this works agianst someone spamming holds. That's great becuase I'll practice teching holds and someone who spams holds wouldn't be so annoying to me. Great.

Now, I don't spam holds so when I go to hold someone and they get out of it x amonut of times, this makes predicable patterns safe from being punished.

Sooner or later stupid schemes would be made for this. Ex. I do PPP with Kasumi, I know my mid is going to get held so I buffer in a Hold Tech. We're left at neutral but she's still in your face with the same pressure before I did PPP. I can keep doing this with other strings and with other characters. The hold system would become obsolete.

At the end of the day that's what your idea would end up turning into.

Unless you have more detailed information than what you gave this wouldn't be all that good. Even if you did have more information, Teching a Hold would take away from DOAs trademark feature.

 

[NightAntilli]

Like stated above, it's too easy to predict.. What is there to stop someone from baiting a specific hold? Not to mention, moves become VERY spam-able.
However.. It could work if it works specifically on certain characters in a certain way.. For example, if someone holds your mid punch, and the hold animation is a high kick or whatever, you need to specifically do an advanced high kick hold to neutralize the hold damage. Holds that launch you can not be escaped and holds that grab you can't be escaped either. People might say that this might cause imbalance, but it doesn't have to if implemented correctly. Still.. It sounds like a gimmick.

 

[RhythmikDesigns]

@ Allan
You said that you would buffer in a hold tech, and my idea based of the idea of throw techs. Are you able to do that with throw techs? I thought you could only break them in the start up frames of the animation. If so, then yeah I see where the idea falls apart as you've put it.

, if someone holds your mid punch, and the hold animation is a high kick or whatever, you need to specifically do an advanced high kick hold to neutralize the hold damage. Holds that launch you can not be escaped and holds that grab you can't be escaped either.

I'd be OK with that.

 

[Allan Paris]

Well you can only break 5i throws and chain throws now will not likely be broken on the regular anymore. Unless that has changed in the final build. But yes, you can do that with 5i thorws if you know someone is going to do it after a certain attack.

 

[RhythmikDesigns]

I got you

 

[d3v]

The hold system would become obsolete.

I'm pretty sure that there are more than a few people who wouldn't mind this.

 

[Allan Paris]

Granted, but not by this method.

 

[DR2K]

Hold on bro I'm going to hold your hold for holding my hold.

 

[Stikku]

I'm pretty sure that there are more than a few people who wouldn't mind this.

Thankfully, DOA can't get any worse.

 

[d3v]

Granted, but not by this method.

Agreed. If they're going to do something like this, then they might as well take a step forward and take holds (or at least holds out of stun) out of the game altogether.

Thankfully, DOA can't get any worse.

I dunno, less holds is always a good thing.

 

[Stikku]

Agreed. If they're going to do something like this, then they might as well take a step forward and take holds (or at least holds out of stun) out of the game altogether.

I dunno, less holds is always a good thing.

Personally, I wouldn't mind the DOA4 counter system in its entirety if only to make just a slight adjust to the active counter frames. Simply make the counter active for only 5 frames max. 1-2 = hicounter. 3-4 = counter. 5 = normal
5 active frames to the counter, then up to 45 for recovery. No need to mess with the damage like DOA5 did, just make it more of a punishment to miss a counter or counter completely incorrectly (escaping a high-combo-string by mashing out a low counter should in no way be an advantageous endeavor, contrary to DOA4) . This would also work with the 3 point system making counters overall more understandable.

Maybe DOA6 or an updated DOA5 will make the jump to a more precise countering mechanic with a distinct frame disadvantage for countering incorrectly. Maybe DOA6 or an updated DOA5 will have 6 point holds, though that may be further off in the distance than a tighter active counter window.

By the way, I agree on the idea of "minimizing holds" in terms of not seeing them a jillion times in one match, especially the ones that miss. I just wouldn't remove holds altogether however, cause that would pretty much destroy the rock/paper/scissors Triangle aspect that DOA is known for. Holds need to have an equal amount of screen time as throws and attacks (if not an equal amount of screen time, an increased amount of damage for a reduced amount of screentime [balanced]), so they shouldn't be nerfed to become beyond useless. There's no reason a hold shouldn't deal a lot of damage, but there is reason enough to make the hold window actually "technical" like many other fighter's advanced-defense mechanic, such as Parrying in Street Fighter, Low-Parrying in Tekken, and even the fancy parries in Soul Calibur are all decently "technical" in that you have a very small window to do it, and if you mess it up you pay the price.

 

[d3v]

Or you could just take holds out of stun.

P.S. There's no punishment for timing a Just Defend in KoF/Instant Block in GG/BB/P4A wrong.

 

[Stikku]

Or you could just take holds out of stun.

P.S. There's no punishment for timing a Just Defend in KoF/Instant Block in GG/BB/P4A wrong.

yeah my bad, i forgot Just Defense works by simply "blocking" at the right time. If you miss it, you still block.

Edited to better reflect my intentions. Thanks.

 

[7thfonon]

A smaller active window would be good, or maybe a hold input for every level of attack for punches and kicks (so it would be 6 different hold inputs, making people less likely to guess)?

Not that I've played much DOA, but it seems like it would make sense.