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[UncleKitchener]

The game definitely needs to have frame disadvantage on block, especially for high rewarding moves and moves that tend to do a quick stun.

More ground should be covered when tech rolling. I'd hate to have my ass to the wall.

 

[MeanMrMustard]

I agree with Rikuto here about the wall. The way 3.1 worked was great because of the viability of the wall tech. The mix up there was "will they tech up or down" so even if the person guessed wrong, there was no damage given either way. I'd rather there be subtle mix ups like that that don't shift the momentum drastically like a wake up kick or a counter off the wall would. The attacker is not able to just go for a meaty, and must have knowledge of how the system works in order to keep applying pressure, while the person rising has to think "what can I do if I tech this way, as compared to teching the other way. Will I be in more danger if I tech down? Does my attacker know this so he will follow by stepping up, in which case if I do tech down I'll be able to get away." This was probably one of my favorite aspects of 3.1 that was not in any other DOA game.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I concur.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Is the 3.1 defensive hold system the same 3-point system as DOA2H or did things change later on throughout the series?

 

[Matt Ponton]

There were less situations that allowed you to hold is the primary difference.

Basically it's for high attacks, for mid attacks, for low attacks, and for High/mid attack parries, for low attack parries.

Parries couldn't be done while in stun.

There was no separation of Punch or Kick in terms of commands.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Were these universal parries or were they character specific like Lei Fang's.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Character Specific to Kasumi, Lei Fang, and Gen Fu.

Bayman and Lei Fang also had advanced holds for , , , and for High, Mid Punch, Mid Kick, and Low attacks. I might be wrong as I don't recall clearly. Either way, those are accessible at any time a normal defensive hold is accessible.

 

[UncleKitchener]

And these were specifically for DOA3 onwards, right? or were these still present in DOA2H is some way or another?

Is there a place where these are documented in detail?

 

[Matt Ponton]

We've been meaning to get more work done with the Wiki which would (eventually) have such information. Any member is free to work on it as there currently is nothing done.

DOA2 Hardcore allowed you to set in the options what type of holds you would like via the options menu. Double Direction or Single Direction.

In DOA4, they split Bayman and Lei Fangs advanced holds up to a six-point system so level of attack and punch/kick were separated. Same idea in directions though.

 

[DrDogg]

I have never played 3.1 so I'll take your word for it on the wall game. From watching match vids and talking to people, it always seemed like the wall was where you wanted the opponent, and that was where most of your damage output would come from. If that wasn't the case, then I'm fine with no wake-up attacks and no countering off the wall.

As I said, I just don't want the main focus of competitive play to be, "get opponent to the wall... death".

The game definitely needs to have frame disadvantage on block, especially for high rewarding moves and moves that tend to do a quick stun.

More ground should be covered when tech rolling. I'd hate to have my ass to the wall.

Um... what? There are already a ton of attacks that are disadvantage on block. I'd say 90% of the attacks in DOA4 are disadvantage on block. We need frame ADVANTAGE on block!

 

[UncleKitchener]

We've been meaning to get more work done with the Wiki which would (eventually) have such information. Any member is free to work on it as there currently is nothing done.

DOA2 Hardcore allowed you to set in the options what type of holds you would like via the options menu. Double Direction or Single Direction.

In DOA4, they split Bayman and Lei Fangs advanced holds up to a six-point system so level of attack and punch/kick were separated. Same idea in directions though.

Unfortunately, I'm not that knowledgeable yet to make contributions, but I suppose I will once I become a pro gamer.

I'll try this out once I get doa3. holds and parries in 3.2 are pretty much the same as 3.1, right?

Um... what? There are already a ton of attacks that are disadvantage on block. I'd say 90% of the attacks in DOA4 are disadvantage on block. We need frame ADVANTAGE on block!

That wasn't the impression I got from some of the comments, really. I think I just misunderstood.

But I heard some of Busa's moves give frame advantage.

 

[Rikuto]

As I said, I just don't want the main focus of competitive play to be, "get opponent to the wall... death".

That really only applies to some characters, and like I said some people don't really have -great- wall combos. As Bayman I can do just about as much damage at the wall as I can in open space with a full juggle leading into a ground throw.

People like jann lee, for example, have badass wall combos (even off of things like his catch throw), and definitely the frame advantage to push a person there, so it's a great incentive to make the wall a big part of his strategy since he's always pushing there anyway.

Bass doesn't have traditional wall combos at all, he's more of an open space punisher. The few things he can do with the wall involve letting a person hit the ground so he can pick them back up, and in the case of 3.1 unless that person was a heavyweight it did not result in any guaranteed damage, just a very threatening 50/50.

Let's not forget there were other more dangerous things in the game too -- god help you if you were launched against a slope.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I'll try this out once I get doa3. holds and parries in 3.2 are pretty much the same as 3.1, right?

Yes. There are other minor frame differences with attacks, but primarily the major thing that's different is the stepping was stricter. You can't tech off the wall to avoid the aggressor as easy as in 3.1, and it's tougher to sidestep in general since they're the same system.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Sorry for the delay, been busy.

No, I still disagree. For the confines of this conversation, we're only talking about the viability of chickens and what happens after a successful chicken. Under that limited discussion, the two games are very similar.

Have you played Tekken at a high level and tried buffering a chicken every time you attack? It's not something that's easy to do. If this same technique was put in DOA4 (we have to go off of DOA4) it would be very difficult to buffer a chicken and still continue your combo if the opponent doesn't attempt a counter. So it's not something you can just buffer every time you attack.

-Wait, hold up! You are using Doa4 as a base of your discussion. If you have noticed or not, many of us do not use that game. We did not even use that game as a base of discussion while talking to Shimbori. It is no wonder why you have came to the conclusions that you did. Using the better game(doa3.1....even Doa2u), the results will not be as you expect.

That really only applies to some characters, and like I said some people don't really have -great- wall combos. As Bayman I can do just about as much damage at the wall as I can in open space with a full juggle leading into a ground throw.

People like jann lee, for example, have badass wall combos (even off of things like his catch throw), and definitely the frame advantage to push a person there, so it's a great incentive to make the wall a big part of his strategy since he's always pushing there anyway.

Bass doesn't have traditional wall combos at all, he's more of an open space punisher. The few things he can do with the wall involve letting a person hit the ground so he can pick them back up, and in the case of 3.1 unless that person was a heavyweight it did not result in any guaranteed damage, just a very threatening 50/50.

Let's not forget there were other more dangerous things in the game too -- god help you if you were launched against a slope.

-The wall game isn't all one sided. There are Characters like Lei fang that take advantage of those who try to press her against the wall. Even though there were characters who did not get as much wall combo damage as others, many of them were able to apply a lot of pressure against the wall....even stages like the forest allowed certain characters to shine.....ugh I miss the environmental strategy that was present in Doa3.

 

[UncleKitchener]

-Wait, hold up! You are using Doa4 as a base of your discussion. If you have noticed or not, many of us do not use that game. We did not even use that game as a base of discussion while talking to Shimbori. It is no wonder why you have came to the conclusions that you did. Using the better game(doa3.1....even Doa2u), the results will not be as you expect.

Still, if you had chickening in doa5, chances are that because of the speed of the game, it would be pretty difficult to buffer a chicken, like very challenging and it would require good reaction. This is not at all easy in Tekken either, unless you've had loads of practice and experience , and Tekken is not really that fast either. Chickens are not things you just do every thursday when you get out of bed or something (unless you're some Korean superstar which in that case, you're some post-human being).

I haven't played DOA4, but from what I gathered from Hardcore and doa2u, having this mechanic wouldn't hinder the gameplay and might actually add a new dimension to the gameplay.

Then again, this might be a little too late to make those kind of suggestions regarding gameplay to TN, who are probably almost done with the Alpha and onto Beta.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Chickening just to chicken would be hard and there will be no way for you to actually put that into practice. I am not denying that. The problem lies with when you put your opponent in Doa's classic 50/50 mixup(excluding Doa4). The mixup is 95% of the time between a mid launcher and a throw. If the opponent do not hold right away, they are going to be launched. The huge hold window has no effect in this equation due to the limited amount of frames the opponent is able to hold and the threat of being high counter thrown. Taking this into account, it would not be as difficult to buffer a chicken and hit confirm to complete the juggle.

 

[Rikuto]

Solid point, actually.

 

[UncleKitchener]

I'll take your word for it, but I still think there is room for some other tool to beat defensive holds other than just high countering.

 

[Rikuto]

Well like i was sayin, if you put in the ability to chicken a chicken, and then chicken that chicken...

lol if its a 1-2 frame window, SOMEONES gonna screw it up eventually.

 

[Raansu]

I'll take your word for it, but I still think there is room for some other tool to beat defensive holds other than just high countering.

Throws doing 150% damage against a hold and tools that limited the use of the hold kind of was the tool to beat defensive holds. Thats why most of us really never had an issue with the 3 point hold in doa3.1. It could of used some tweaking, but really imo chickening would be kind of overkill to the triangle system in doa3.1.